Giving a god some stats.

[Lord_Em_The_DM]

In my campaign, the mysterious old man in the tavern is actually Odin. I plan to have him fight alongside/against the PCs at some point, but I am concerned about what his stats would be. I have alreay given him some spells like scrying and legend lore, as they are tekstes to his domain.
Have you ever had to stat a god?

[NiklasWB]

I'm actually going to have a goddess appear in mortal form at one point in my campaign. She will however be bound in a mortal form, so she will not be as powerful as she could have been. But I'm looking at things like Planetars and Solars in the Monster Manual for inspiration in terms of HP, stats etc, and then changing things to fit the goddess' domain.

[JellyPooga]

You don't need to give a God stats. Shouldn't, even. They are literally your (the GMs) will given form in the game world and as such are not bound by the rules. They don't cast spells or make attacks, they merely do what you want them to. As soon as you give it stats, it can be killed. As soon as you roll a dice for it, it can fail to accomplish whatever plot point you introduced it for. Don't give gods stats, because if it's a god it doesn't need them. If you just want a DMPC, don't make it a god.

[McNinja]

In my campaign, the mysterious old man in the tavern is actually Odin. I plan to have him fight alongside/against the PCs at some point, but I am concerned about what his stats would be. I have alreay given him some spells like scrying and legend lore, as they are tekstes to his domain.
Have you ever had to stat a god?
Yes.

And depends what they're fighting. If you're having Odin help the group fight a bunch of monsters (anything found in the Monster Manual, really), then he really doesn't need stats. A god of that caliber would pretty much annihilate anything in his path.

Now, if you're having the PCs fight another diety, or some full-powered demon princes, then yes, make some stats. Just remember that a god is more powerful than you think, so once you have some stats created and you're satisfied with them, make them even more powerful.

Also, check this out. It'll provide some great tips and starting points for creating a deity.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES

[Cazero]

Considering Odin is very probably Polymorphed into something as part of his disguise, you don't even need to give him stats by RAW. Just pick a humanoid statblock he polymorphed into.
The real Odin beneath the polymorph is, of course, far more powerful. But that's not relevant since if he was willing to use that power he wouldn't have polymorphed in the first place.

[nickl_2000]

You don't need to give a God stats. Shouldn't, even. They are literally your (the GMs) will given form in the game world and as such are not bound by the rules. They don't cast spells or make attacks, they merely do what you want them to. As soon as you give it stats, it can be killed. As soon as you roll a dice for it, it can fail to accomplish whatever plot point you introduced it for. Don't give gods stats, because if it's a god it doesn't need them. If you just want a DMPC, don't make it a god.

I guess this really depends on the situation. It's a god in the mortal plane, it would be easy enough to say that the god is taking the form of an avatar in the similar vein as a Wildshaped druid. They get HP in the avatar's form, but it wouldn't actually kill them in relativity if they were to die. Also, if you don't roll a die when an NPC attacks, the PCs will start to wonder what is going on.


As for stats though, it's a little more challenging. What level characters is he fighting?

[Grey Watcher]

I'm actually going to have a goddess appear in mortal form at one point in my campaign. She will however be bound in a mortal form, so she will not be as powerful as she could have been. But I'm looking at things like Planetars and Solars in the Monster Manual for inspiration in terms of HP, stats etc, and then changing things to fit the goddess' domain.


Yes.

And depends what they're fighting. If you're having Odin help the group fight a bunch of monsters (anything found in the Monster Manual, really), then he really doesn't need stats. A god of that caliber would pretty much annihilate anything in his path.

Now, if you're having the PCs fight another diety, or some full-powered demon princes, then yes, make some stats. Just remember that a god is more powerful than you think, so once you have some stats created and you're satisfied with them, make them even more powerful.

Also, check this out. It'll provide some great tips and starting points for creating a deity.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES


Considering Odin is very probably Polymorphed into something as part of his disguise, you don't even need to give him stats by RAW. Just pick a humanoid statblock he polymorphed into.
The real Odin beneath the polymorph is, of course, far more powerful. But that's not relevant since if he was willing to use that power he wouldn't have polymorphed in the first place.


I guess this really depends on the situation. It's a god in the mortal plane, it would be easy enough to say that the god is taking the form of an avatar in the similar vein as a Wildshaped druid. They get HP in the avatar's form, but it wouldn't actually kill them in relativity if they were to die. Also, if you don't roll a die when an NPC attacks, the PCs will start to wonder what is going on.


As for stats though, it's a little more challenging. What level characters is he fighting?

This is all both good advice from a game design perspective and also fitting with what I know of Odin from Norse mythology: when we went among humans (or svartalfar or whatever), he specifically didn't want to be recognized. Our image of wizards with big, broad brimmed hats and bulky robes goes back to stories of Odin trying to hide his identity ("I couldn't see the strangers face under the shadow of his hat. Heck, I only know it was a he because of that beard.") So, when he disguises himself as a human Archmage or something, he plays the role, hitting and missing in realistic ways.

If you want to add a air of mystery and tease your players about the truth, one thing you might do is if/when Odin goes down, he doesn't leave behind a body. Bonus points if the PCs don't notice this until after the dust of combat settles.

[nickl_2000]

This is all both good advice from a game design perspective and also fitting with what I know of Odin from Norse mythology: when we went among humans (or svartalfar or whatever), he specifically didn't want to be recognized. Our image of wizards with big, broad brimmed hats and bulky robes goes back to stories of Odin trying to hide his identity ("I couldn't see the strangers face under the shadow of his hat. Heck, I only know it was a he because of that beard.") So, when he disguises himself as a human Archmage or something, he plays the role, hitting and missing in realistic ways.

If you want to add a air of mystery and tease your players about the truth, one thing you might do is if/when Odin goes down, he doesn't leave behind a body. Bonus points if the PCs don't notice this until after the dust of combat settles.

Although, I think a requirement of any avatar of Odin's would still be missing an eye and have an eyepatch. That's a tiny, tiny hint that they will probably look at later and realize what it meant.

[DragonSorcererX]

In my campaign, the mysterious old man in the tavern is actually Odin. I plan to have him fight alongside/against the PCs at some point, but I am concerned about what his stats would be. I have alreay given him some spells like scrying and legend lore, as they are tekstes to his domain.
Have you ever had to stat a god?

Knowing how low power the Norse Mythology is (because the gods are just a bunch of high level characters who eat some apples to be immortal), I would say that giving stats to Odin is not really weird, but because he is the leader of the pantheon he should be somewhere around CR 30.

[Cybren]

You don't need to give a God stats. Shouldn't, even. They are literally your (the GMs) will given form in the game world and as such are not bound by the rules. They don't cast spells or make attacks, they merely do what you want them to. As soon as you give it stats, it can be killed. As soon as you roll a dice for it, it can fail to accomplish whatever plot point you introduced it for. Don't give gods stats, because if it's a god it doesn't need them. If you just want a DMPC, don't make it a god.

Unless gods aren't that powerful in your campaign, or the theme of the campaign is related to religious upheaval and reformation, or direct conflict between rivaling religions, or decide in specific. Sometimes being able to kill gods is a feature and not a bug

[KorvinStarmast]

You don't need to give a God stats. Shouldn't, even. They are literally your (the GMs) will given form in the game world and as such are not bound by the rules. {snip} If you just want a DMPC, don't make it a god. Nice point.

Considering Odin is very probably Polymorphed into something as part of his disguise, you don't even need to give him stats by RAW. Just pick a humanoid statblock he polymorphed into. The real Odin beneath the polymorph is, of course, far more powerful. But that's not relevant since if he was willing to use that power he wouldn't have polymorphed in the first place. Nice idea, and I am keeping that one! *tips cap*

[Renduaz]

You don't need to give a God stats. Shouldn't, even. They are literally your (the GMs) will given form in the game world and as such are not bound by the rules. They don't cast spells or make attacks, they merely do what you want them to. As soon as you give it stats, it can be killed. As soon as you roll a dice for it, it can fail to accomplish whatever plot point you introduced it for. Don't give gods stats, because if it's a god it doesn't need them. If you just want a DMPC, don't make it a god.

That's officially wrong. Deities aren't an extension of the DM's will insomuch as any other NPC is. I assure you, there is very little which Corellon Larethian or Sune have to do with my will. In canon settings, each deity has their own personality, portfolio and goals which are for the most part not a factor in regular campaigns, can occasionally be used as a plot device or enforcement device ( With justification from their portfolio ) by the DM, but most of all serve the role of exceedingly powerful NPC's for the player. For example, both the Cleric spell "Commune" and the "Divine intervention" ability invoke an interaction with deities determined by the player. Granted, it's up to the DM to formulate the answers in "Commune" or decide the nature of assistance from the "Divine Intervention" ability, but that's what a DM does with any NPC. You have to weigh in the portfolio and desires of the deity, but ultimately, it's still the player who calls upon the deity in a situation of his choosing and for his own needs, so they are not merely instruments of the DM's will. Secondly, Wizards of the Coast already gave stats to a deity, or at least it's avatar ( But that's the only form they can take on the Prime Material anyway ) - Tiamat, in The Rise of Tiamat campaign. That's basically one of the few official WOTC campaigns out for 5e so far and the entire thing is centered around a deity with stats and roleplaying instructions. Not to mention that rules of engagement or even stats have been published about deities in plenty of earlier D&D editions as far as I know.

In the Forgotten Realms setting, which is the most popular, there is actually a being responsible for "The DM's will given form" and he's called Lord Ao, an Overdeity. The one who doesn't care about worshipers, has no seemingly known agenda, created the Prime Material of Abeir-Toril, makes up all the rules for the pantheon and decides which interloper deities are allowed and which aren't, and so forth. Now that was actually meant to be the DM's will given form, not the deities themselves. Now OP, if you want to stats a deity, you should probably draw inspiration from Tiamat in The Rise of Tiamat for power level, if not abilities. Although Tiamat is only a lesser deity, and Odin would likely be a Greater Deity, which means that if this was the Forgotten Realms, your party or anything he wants to attack would never stand a chance, but since Odin isn't canonical to any campaign setting, I'm assuming it's homebrew, so you might as well base his strength on Tiamat.

[JellyPooga]

That's officially wrong.

Fair comment and I agree that in respect to other NPCs, gods are no different.

I will note, however, that gods are gods. They're not bound by the usual limitations of lesser creatures (immortal or otherwise). If you're featuring a god in your game, it should probably be for plot critical reasons or, as you note, only as a function of the abilities being used by characters in the game. Having one tag-along with the PCs is either going to overshadow them with their (literally) god-like abilities or it's not going to live up to the title if they go around being less than god-like. An avatar of a god of battle, for example, would look pretty daft if he missed his foes in combat.

[Renduaz]

Fair comment and I agree that in respect to other NPCs, gods are no different.

I will note, however, that gods are gods. They're not bound by the usual limitations of lesser creatures (immortal or otherwise). If you're featuring a god in your game, it should probably be for plot critical reasons or, as you note, only as a function of the abilities being used by characters in the game. Having one tag-along with the PCs is either going to overshadow them with their (literally) god-like abilities or it's not going to live up to the title if they go around being less than god-like. An avatar of a god of battle, for example, would look pretty daft if he missed his foes in combat.

You're right about that, deities should rarely act as party followers and OP would most likely devalue his deity if he assigns him as a companion encountered in some tavern, however OP does say he's going to have him fight with or against the players "at some point" which implies that he doesn't intend for him to "tag along", or perhaps only tag along as a harmless old man until a crucial plot moment, where there might be some big showdown or feat required which is beyond the party's powers, and only then the deity will manifest itself, which would be a fitting usage. Such as a fight against another deity, Loki for example, in which Odin makes an appearance to prevent the party from being crushed by an equally powerful deity, or else the party sides with Loki against Odin as the only way of defeating him.

[JellyPooga]

You're right about that, deities should rarely act as party followers and OP would most likely devalue his deity if he assigns him as a companion encountered in some tavern, however OP does say he's going to have him fight with or against the players "at some point" which implies that he doesn't intend for him to "tag along", or perhaps only tag along as a harmless old man until a crucial plot moment, where there might be some big showdown or feat required which is beyond the party's powers, and only then the deity will manifest itself, which would be a fitting usage. Such as a fight against another deity, Loki for example, in which Odin makes an appearance to prevent the party from being crushed by an equally powerful deity, or else the party sides with Loki against Odin as the only way of defeating him.

Used like that, however, they're not a character so much as they're a plot device and giving stats to your plot device opens the chance for that piece of the puzzle failing or otherwise not fitting.

[Herobizkit]

If it matters that much to you, many of the Norse gods (among others) were statted in 3.5's "Deities and Demigods" supplement. It would be fitting to let them keep their "divine/epic" feats into a 5e game, since they are the paragon of amazing. Lots of great reading in there, much of which (the non-mechanical stuff) is faithfully reproduced/simplified in 5e's DMG.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think DragonSorcererX had a good point about the power level of Norse gods. (Although to be precise, I think they ate apples for youth, not immortality; that one time they didn't get to nom apples, they sat around being old.) A few epic levels, high-levels spells, select boons and maybe some bailout features like legendary saves should be more than enough to represent them if the campaign is largely aiming to reflect those myths, which I guess the OP hasn't told us.