Don't Mess with a Pacifist Monk

[Nebuul]

Monk 16 / Fighter 4
2 levels monk,
4 levels fighter,
14 levels monk

Level 1: Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence
Level 2: Deflect Arrows, Vow of Peace
Level 3: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus: Unarmed
Level 4: Subduing Strike, Touch of Golden Ice
Level 6: Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed, Intuitive Attack
Level 8: Alternate Class Feature (Holy Strike), Holy Subdual
Level 9: Snap Kick
Level 10: Improved Trip, Nimbus of Light (mostly for flavor, but also for light)
Level 12: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning, Sanctify Ki Strike
Level 14: Holy Ki Strike
Level 15: Improved Critical: Unarmed
Level 16: Fist of the Heavens
Level 18: Crushing Strike, Exalted Spell Resistance
Level 20: Holy Radiance (again, flavor)

With this getup, you're doing 14/14/14/14/9/4/-1 (+6+wis mod) lawful good magic adamantium holy attacks
You get +1 cumulative attack bonus per successful hit, up to: 20/21/22/23/19/15/11 (+wis)
4d8+7+Str(+3d6 vs evil) damage per hit.
Your stunning fist will be +4(+2 vs evil) dc
Your AC bonus will be 21+wis+dex
Your saves will be really high.

All-in-all, it should be pretty fun. If you need to fly, hopefully a party member can buff you :) I just wish there was something I could swap Quivering Palm out for. This character will literally never use that ability.

The hardest part for the build is that it requires stupid good stats. C'est la vie. I hope i can get 15 wis, 15 cha, 13 con, and maybe a little bit of str for some more damage.

[logic_error]

Yeah. But you are not flying. Which means you are not as powerful as you thought.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

With this getup, you're doing 14/14/14/14/9/4/-1 (+6+wis mod) lawful good magic adamantium holy attacks
You get +1 cumulative attack bonus per successful hit, up to: 20/21/22/23/19/15/11 (+wis)

That's extremely inaccurate. On average, a core monster or CR20 has an AC of 36 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?138024-Average-AC-and-Hp-of-Core-monsters-by-CR). Virtually everything that you'll be fighting at that level you will only be able to hit on a twenty.

I'll generously assume you started with a dex and wis of 18*. Assuming you increased both by two with level ups and put your VOP bonuses into them, that will give you an AC of 38. I can't find an average attack bonus by CR, but a CR20 Pit Fiend, for example, has an attack bonus of +30/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28, so will probably be hitting you about half the time. You probably have hp around the 160 region (assuming that you started with 14 con and put the +2 from VoP there), so you're actually pretty damn squishy. On average, in a straight melee fight with a Pit Fiend (which is probably the worst beat stick of all core CR20s), you will fail to do a single point of damage to it as it disassembles you over 4 rounds or so. A monster actually designed for melee will do so even faster. And any half-competent caster will still be able to shut you down with a single standard action.

TL, DR: This build is extremely weak and will get destroyed by average opposition of comparable CR with little to no resource expenditure. Sorry.

*That's fairly unlikely given your huge MAD, but regardless.

[weckar]

The fact that you can only do nonlethal damage to most targets really takes the oomph out of this.

[Uncle Pine]

But you can't fly, so a mephit with a blowgun and a lot of patience could kill you.

[Inevitability]

Ah, monkday. Will I ever get tired of you and the VoP 'combos' you bring?

[Fizban]

Crushing Strike ends at the end of your turn, it's *insanely* bad. Taking an extra -2 on your three full bonus attacks (and probably a haste attack) to get one more with Snap Kick is not worth it with your BAB, save yourself the feat. You also have no reason to take Subduing Strike whatsoever, since monks can already do that, maybe you ran out of exalted feats or something.

Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets), Open Least Chakra (Hands), and Extra Essentia on an Azurin would net you +8 morale to damage on every unarmed attack, no penalties, no bard required. No reason to actually take monk 14, with fractional BAB you could take a level of totemist for more goodies and another point of essentia to hit +10 (or just cram another incarnum feat).

To fix the monk's AC, increase the base unarmored bonus to 2+1/2 level. To fix the base mobility, throw in wall running for free and stay inside where you have walls to run on. From there, adventure as part of a functioning party that casts buffs on people instead of assuming perfect magic items and remind them to cast Fly as needed. Or be a Raptoran, or Dragonborn, or . . .

[Darrin]

Oh look... it's Monkday.


I just wish there was something I could swap Quivering Palm out for. This character will literally never use that ability.


The variant fighting styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) in the SRD/Unearthed Arcana allow you to swap around your bonus feats for something else. There's also rules in Oriental Adventures that allow you to pick up bonus feats from Table 6-1 (page 79), which allows for a little more flexibility. You don't really need Stunning Fist or Fist of the Heavens.

Dragonborn of Bahamut (possibly performed before VoP) or Raptoran might fix the issue with flight.

However, the key problem here is that Vow of Poverty doesn't actually offer that many useful feats to a monk or fix any of the inherent design problems of the class (low BAB, useless/conflicting class features, weak DPR, MAD, etc.). Actually, VoP hurts monks even *harder* because they can't use magic items to compensate for their weaknesses, and the benefits from VoP are tepid and lackluster compared to what level-appropriate equipment/magic items would get you.

Anyway, I hope you have a thick skin. This forum has rather strong opinions on the (lack of) effectiveness of monks.

[nolongerchaos]

I'd just like to point out that Touch of Golden Ice is incompatible with Vow of Peace, and if you ever face evil humanoids or monstrous humanoids, ever, it's incompatible with Vow of Nonviolence. Dealing ability damage violates both, which according to their own stipulations, causes you to irrevocably lose their benefits.

[ATHATH]

I'd just like to point out that Touch of Golden Ice is incompatible with Vow of Peace, and if you ever face evil humanoids or monstrous humanoids, ever, it's incompatible with Vow of Nonviolence. Dealing ability damage violates both, which according to their own stipulations, causes you to irrevocably lose their benefits.
*slow claps*

[nolongerchaos]

*slow claps*

Thanks, but having once sat at a table that considered a vanilla Monk 20 to be really strong, I'm not going to assume what is or isn't considered comparatively strong at Nebuul's table. Sure, there's an entire thread floating around here devoted to building monks capable of soloing all of the challenges from Elder Evils, but I'm not going to point Nebuul in that direction since simply the title "Don't Mess with a Pacifist Monk" leads me to believe that such a thread is way, way above the optimization level of that gaming table. But I am going to point out feats that conflict with other mechanics within the build.

[JNAProductions]

Could be a fun build. What's your table like, Neb?

[ATHATH]

Thanks, but having once sat at a table that considered a vanilla Monk 20 to be really strong, I'm not going to assume what is or isn't considered comparatively strong at Nebuul's table. Sure, there's an entire thread floating around here devoted to building monks capable of soloing all of the challenges from Elder Evils, but I'm not going to point Nebuul in that direction since simply the title "Don't Mess with a Pacifist Monk" leads me to believe that such a thread is way, way above the optimization level of that gaming table. But I am going to point out feats that conflict with other mechanics within the build.
I'm not trying to laugh at you, I'm trying to laugh at the rules. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Segev]

How is dealing damage getting around the Vow of Nonviolence to begin with? :smallconfused:

[ATHATH]

How is dealing damage getting around the Vow of Nonviolence to begin with? :smallconfused:
It's probably non-lethal damage.

[Nebuul]

The power level around the table . . . if we ever run into a flying opponent, I'd be surprised. The group is very RP-focused with the majority of xp being given out for completing quests/etc. Plus or wizard has never played before, so there is no book-hunting there for optimal summons/bindings/shiftings/etc.

So basically I'm not too worried.

As for the comment someone made about touch of golden ice, you're incorrect. The pacifism feats specifically say ability loss damage from spells or weapons. I apply it from a feat that just cares about an evil creator touching my skin. It's totally legit :-)

And I have to take subdual strike because it is a pre-req for holy subdual, which is required so my holy damage vs evil can be subdual damage. While monks can do subdual at-will with unarmed, subdual strike is for all weapons.

Finally, the build is very obviously for a low-power table. There will never be a "serious" poverty build because the very point of d&d is counter to both poverty and pacifism.

Still, though, I hope or wizard and cleric can cast some buff spells on me each fight . . . and maybe a permanency or two :-)

P.s.- I read all the stuff about vop and monks. I know both are considered garbage. "VoP might be ok for druids" blah blah.

[Big Fau]

The power level around the table . . . if we ever run into a flying opponent, I'd be surprised. The group is very RP-focused with the majority of xp being given out for completing quests/etc. Plus or wizard has never played before, so there is no book-hunting there for optimal summons/bindings/shiftings/etc.

So basically I'm not too worried.

Doesn't change the fact that a single encounter in the mid-levels is going to have an AC too high for you to consistently hit it. Your character is nigh unto useless against anything with a level-appropriate AC outside of the first 5 or so levels.


As for the comment someone made about touch of golden ice, you're incorrect. The pacifism feats specifically say ability loss damage from spells or weapons. I apply it from a feat that just cares about an evil creator touching my skin. It's totally legit :-)

You only have a point when you are being attacked. If you are attacking, ToGI is applied to your weapon. And Vow of Peace is utter garbage because it forces your allies to adhere to your standards or you lose your abilities.


Finally, the build is very obviously for a low-power table. There will never be a "serious" poverty build because the very point of d&d is counter to both poverty and pacifism.

This isn't even low-op, this is intentionally gimping yourself (and your entire party).

[Nebuul]

This isn't even low-op, this is intentionally gimping yourself (and your entire party).

I have seen the error of my ways.

Just kidding. I'm sorry you are offended somehow by fun builds like these :-)

I can't wait for enemies to shatter their weapons on me. It'll be dope.

[JNAProductions]

The issue is, it's a fun build to think about. It would not be fun in play, since it can't do much.

[Inevitability]

Just let OP play this build. Their group probably has the monsters they encounter gimped to fit the characters, so that an offensively cripped, defensively overspecialized monk can contribute and have fun.

That or they figure out being unable to hit anything is not fun and never reply to this thread again.

[Psyren]

I'd just like to point out that Touch of Golden Ice is incompatible with Vow of Peace, and if you ever face evil humanoids or monstrous humanoids, ever, it's incompatible with Vow of Nonviolence. Dealing ability damage violates both, which according to their own stipulations, causes you to irrevocably lose their benefits.


T
As for the comment someone made about touch of golden ice, you're incorrect. The pacifism feats specifically say ability loss damage from spells or weapons. I apply it from a feat that just cares about an evil creator touching my skin. It's totally legit :-)

Ha, I never actually noticed either of these. It's like, I can't tell if they designed it to be dysfunctional and then created the loophole, or whether the entire thing was an accident that just happened to work out in the exalted character's favor.

Anyway, if I wanted a pacifist monk I'd do 3.P and play a Qinggong Monk of the Lotus. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-lotus/)

[Big Fau]

I have seen the error of my ways.

Just kidding. I'm sorry you are offended somehow by fun builds like these :-)

I can't wait for enemies to shatter their weapons on me. It'll be dope.

I want you to think of 4 things:


The save DC for breaking a weapon is Con-based, and you have a huge amount of MAD crippling that (never mind that you only get a +8 Enhancement bonus from VoPov). The DC is going to be low, and Fort is the highest save for a vast many creatures (especially considering that ones using Manufactured Weapons will likely have Fighter-esque class levels).
Vow of Peace actually says you lose the benefits if your allies kill an enemy that you help subdue. VoNV also has a similar clause. Your character would actively have a mechanic that hinders your friends' actions or suffer a penalty.
ToGI has a set Save DC of 14. This DC is so low its laughable, never mind that the initial Dex damage isn't a serious threat.
Your build has absolutely 0 ranged combat capabilities. If you encounter anything that has a reasonably competent ranged option (like a Manticore) you are dead in the water.

[Swaoeaeieu]

fun thing is, by definition you dont need to mess with a pacifist monk. He isnt allowed to hit you after all, so just keep doing your thing and watch the monk sit idly by.

[Inevitability]

fun thing is, by definition you dont need to mess with a pacifist monk. He isnt allowed to hit you after all, so just keep doing your thing and watch the monk sit idly by.

From the look of it, this build is (supposed to be) only a Technical Pacifist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicalPacifist).

[Swaoeaeieu]

From the look of it, this build is (supposed to be) only a Technical Pacifist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnicalPacifist).

any dm worth his salt wont allow that to happen all the time right? :P

[Inevitability]

any dm worth his salt wont allow that to happen all the time right? :P

Thing is, Vow of Peace explicitly allows nonlethal attacks.

[lord_khaine]

Doesn't change the fact that a single encounter in the mid-levels is going to have an AC too high for you to consistently hit it. Your character is nigh unto useless against anything with a level-appropriate AC outside of the first 5 or so levels.


That or they figure out being unable to hit anything is not fun and never reply to this thread again.

I think the risk of not hitting anything are being wastly overblown, to a large part because it seems people have not bothered to actually read though the OP's build?

He write it differently from how people normally does so, but if he dont use the snap kick feat then he is hitting for +22 +ability modifier on his main attacks. If he starts with a 16, puts 2 stat gain into it and the +8 stat bonus then it end up being +30/+30/+30/+25/+19 that increases to +36/+36/+36/+31/+25

Thats certainly going to contribute towards pummeling anything a normal party encounters into submission.


You only have a point when you are being attacked. If you are attacking, ToGI is applied to your weapon. And Vow of Peace is utter garbage because it forces your allies to adhere to your standards or you lose your abilities.

It is a good point about how the VOP forces people to adhere to the pacifist code. We can hope the party fights a lot of mindless things.


The save DC for breaking a weapon is Con-based, and you have a huge amount of MAD crippling that (never mind that you only get a +8 Enhancement bonus from VoPov). The DC is going to be low, and Fort is the highest save for a vast many creatures (especially considering that ones using Manufactured Weapons will likely have Fighter-esque class levels).

The DC is still decently high, 10 +½level + con modifier when its free and on every single attack.


ToGI has a set Save DC of 14. This DC is so low its laughable, never mind that the initial Dex damage isn't a serious threat.

Its again on every single attack, and comes on its own. A natural is always going to fail, and in the level 5-15 range your going to find a lot of things that fail on more than a 1.
Also, the initial dex damage is 1d6 +(targets) cha modifier. Against evil outsiders this is again something that can get rather high swiftly.


Your build has absolutely 0 ranged combat capabilities. If you encounter anything that has a reasonably competent ranged option (like a Manticore) you are dead in the water.

Not going to matter when the OP already said flying things are extremely rare.

This build is not nearly as good as the OP thinks, but its not nearly as bad as people makes it out to be either. I honestly also think that its biggest concerns are going to be the code of conduct. I have tried playing with a VOP/nonviolence char before, and it gets annoying in the long run. But what might improve the build is getting red of nonviolence, and adding the saint template instead.

Or well, it might actually make this build to OP for the OP's table. Saint is most likely the strongest template there is.
At least that i know of.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Thing is, Vow of Peace explicitly allows nonlethal attacks.

yea but dont all those vows kinda mess over your party members as well? didnt someone just say that? :P
it makes the game a lot harder to play for everyone involved.

[nolongerchaos]

As for the comment someone made about touch of golden ice, you're incorrect. The pacifism feats specifically say ability loss damage from spells or weapons. I apply it from a feat that just cares about an evil creator touching my skin. It's totally legit :-)

Well, yes, it does say that, but...



Strike, unarmed: A Medium... blah blah blah...

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.


So that still doesn't work, unless you want to try to convince your DM that since you're specifically using your elbows and knees to Unarmed Strike and not your fists, and only "bare hands, fists, and natural weapon" are named by ToGI, but somehow I don't think that will fly with most DMs.

And as for being used defensively, ToGI actually has no defensive value, as RAW, ToGI only triggers when you touch, saying nothing about anything happening when you are touched. (Even then, again, they'd have to be specifically touching your "bare hand, fist, or a natural weapons".)

Edit: actually, no, ToGI explicitly requires either a bare-handed touch (not an attack) or a punch (an unarmed strike, and therefore a weapon) or a natural weapon, the latter two of which would be a weapon inflicting ability damage.

[Psyren]

Edit: actually, no, ToGI explicitly requires either a bare-handed touch (not an attack) or a punch (an unarmed strike, and therefore a weapon) or a natural weapon, the latter two of which would be a weapon inflicting ability damage.

What's to stop a VoNV from just using the former and gently caressing their foes with TOGI instead though? In fact, it would be even easier to hit than trying to punch them.

Not defending the OP's build but I think you can use TOGI this way and not break your vow.

[nolongerchaos]

What's to stop a VoNV from just using the former and gently caressing their foes with TOGI instead though? In fact, it would be even easier to hit than trying to punch them.

Not defending the OP's build but I think you can use TOGI this way and not break your vow.

Oh it definitely works that way, but making touch attacks to hope enemies fail Fort saves for a little Dex damage seems like a waste of actions, even for VoPeace. I mean, it'd probably be worthwhile against foes like dragons if you could get the DC up, but even young chromatic dragons will be making those saves 70% of the time, at least, and they can fly, so the Monk's got even more problems the older or more advanced they are.

[logic_error]

OP what is your actual character concept?

Is it:

a) Martial artist : Optimal solution - Play a fighter with unarmed attack
b) A devout practitioner of rituals? Optimal solution - Play a Cleric
c) A bald guy with prayer beads? - Optimal solution Play a Cleric
d) A guy who can scream style names while they fight? Optimal solution - Play a fighter

Seriously, there is nothing a monk can do in these categories that the solutions presented can't do better.

If you want to play the silent ninja, play the Ninja!

[bean illus]

yea but dont all those vows kinda mess over your party members as well? didnt someone just say that? :P
it makes the game a lot harder to play for everyone involved.

Sometimes folks seem to forget there's a plot. What if the DM just says 'your monk order has commanded you to quest with these people etc,etc,etc'? If so, then the other party members are not attached to the VoP...

The DM can also boost VoP by having non VoP npcs cast wish on the monk. There are plenty of ways for the DM to boost the character up to level appropriate (or close).

[Big Fau]

What's to stop a VoNV from just using the former and gently caressing their foes with TOGI instead though? In fact, it would be even easier to hit than trying to punch them.

Not defending the OP's build but I think you can use TOGI this way and not break your vow.


Oh it definitely works that way, but making touch attacks to hope enemies fail Fort saves for a little Dex damage seems like a waste of actions, even for VoPeace. I mean, it'd probably be worthwhile against foes like dragons if you could get the DC up, but even young chromatic dragons will be making those saves 70% of the time, at least, and they can fly, so the Monk's got even more problems the older or more advanced they are.

That and the monster attorneys would definitely try to get molestation charges against him.

[Nebuul]

Monk 16 / Fighter 4
2 levels monk,
4 levels fighter,
14 levels monk


I just realized this doesn't even work. I forgot that monks have the restriction about pausing monk progression (they can't). So yeah, no monkday.

[animewatcha]

You are of a monk order that is similar to sun soul monk ( allows progression in one class other than monk ) or you are a rokugan monk. Now back to the original issues at hand.

[Darrin]

I just realized this doesn't even work. I forgot that monks have the restriction about pausing monk progression (they can't). So yeah, no monkday.

Very few people ever bother to enforce that rule. And that's assuming they even remember it. That and 90% of all monk-related PrCs state somewhere, "you may continue to multiclass as a monk".