A Useful and Fun Caster for Low Magic Campaigns

[Zombulian]

So this may be more well placed on the homebrew forum, but right now I'm not so much homebrewing anything as I am taking already existing class features and mashing them together.
I was trying to synthesize a class that would sort of mimic people like Gandalf and other theatrical Wizards in fairly low magic settings. I think there have already been discussions about how Gandalf is an e6 Psion or something like that, but I wanted something to progress for twenty levels.

Essentially I'm shooting for a tier 3-4 casting class that has useful spells to aid his comrades with nothing particularly gamebreaking while also not being useless.

These are the bits that I've frankensteined together as of this moment:
-Adept Chassis (except for changes below)
-Medium BAB instead of Poor
-Maybe 1 Martial Weapon Proficiency
-Psycrystal at level 2 instead of a Familiar
-Either d8 HD instead of d6, or one more good save in addition to Will
-Prepares powers like an Erudite (off of the whole of the Adept list instead of choosing powers known), using the Adepts spells per day progression as its unique powers per day
-Power Points per day as Psywar

How does this look? How do you think it would play? What would you change?

Edit: I've realized that Psionics doesn't have a way to deal with 0 Level spells, unless Erudite has a way (I'm afb rn).

[Venger]

As ever when someone says they want a "low magic" campaign, I'll ask if D&D is the best system to simulate it.

The game is built very heavily on the understanding you will have access to magic from the very beginning, and if you plan to alter that, you need to systematically check and alter just about everything in the game.

For example, a simple shadow will kill everyone in your party if you don't have a magic weapon or a force effect by level 3. And that's just a core monster that would easily come up on a random encounter table by happenstance, not even you going out of your way to challenge the party like that damn crab or an adamantine horror.

What are your goals and what exactly do you mean by "low magic"? gandalf does almost no magic at all in lotr, he's really far away from even a t4 caster like a warmage, who, while not the best classes in the game, can at least survive a typical beer and pretzels game.

[Zombulian]

As ever when someone says they want a "low magic" campaign, I'll ask if D&D is the best system to simulate it.

The game is built very heavily on the understanding you will have access to magic from the very beginning, and if you plan to alter that, you need to systematically check and alter just about everything in the game.

For example, a simple shadow will kill everyone in your party if you don't have a magic weapon or a force effect by level 3. And that's just a core monster that would easily come up on a random encounter table by happenstance, not even you going out of your way to challenge the party like that damn crab or an adamantine horror.

What are your goals and what exactly do you mean by "low magic"? gandalf does almost no magic at all in lotr, he's really far away from even a t4 caster like a warmage, who, while not the best classes in the game, can at least survive a typical beer and pretzels game.

That's a good point, but maybe I should be more specific and instead of saying low magic I say low powered magic? I'd like this class to be perfectly at home in a beer and pretzels game. It's not that the fighter isn't going to have a magic weapon in a game like this, but more that there isn't going to be a Wizard in the party to taxi them around with teleport. The class has access to some neat spells, doesn't get too many (3 unique per day, but unlike the actual adept, this one can spontaneously use each and divvy up his powerpoints as the situation demands) but can progressively make them stronger as he levels through augmentation. Maybe I should add some bonus feats so they don't feel too much like an expert with only knowledge skills when they're out of powerpoints...

[Psyren]

Psywar hits all your checkboxes except the preparation bit. Any reason you don't want to just use that?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So... a 6th level manifester based off the Psion list? Should be fine; that's a pretty decent progression. You might kick the power points up a bit and keep the chassis weak; that way they can still rely on magic for combat without having to fight over the psionic-gish role.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Adept progression doesn't actually offer enough spells/day to make it through a normal adventuring day.
It also lacks any kind of class features that partial casters usually get to make up for that lack of endurance - it has low hp, low BAB and low skills.

What do you expect a player to do with a class that only comes with enough spells/day for two encounters even into the mid-levels?
How do you expect anyone to have fun if they spend most of the day standing around?

The way to reduce magic power isn't limiting uses, it's limiting spell access. The perfect caster for the game you're describing? It's a warlock.

[Zombulian]

Psywar hits all your checkboxes except the preparation bit. Any reason you don't want to just use that?


So... a 6th level manifester based off the Psion list? Should be fine; that's a pretty decent progression. You might kick the power points up a bit and keep the chassis weak; that way they can still rely on magic for combat without having to fight over the psionic-gish role.

Well I want it to be based on the Adept list actually (so technically a 5th level manifester), just treating the spells like a StP Erudite would. The Erudite's Unique Powers Per Day is pretty wonky the more I look at it, so let's reimagine this as a Spirit Shaman type casting mechanic. The class can choose different "powers" off of the Adept list every day to have access to manifest.
But yeah, it's not supposed to be a gish per se, and that's why I'm not just defaulting to Psychic Warrior, though that class would fit into the scenario I want as well.
I agree about kicking the power points up a bit.

[Zombulian]

The Adept progression doesn't actually offer enough spells/day to make it through a normal adventuring day.
It also lacks any kind of class features that partial casters usually get to make up for that lack of endurance - it has low hp, low BAB and low skills.

What do you expect a player to do with a class that only comes with enough spells/day for two encounters even into the mid-levels?
How do you expect anyone to have fun if they spend most of the day standing around?

The way to reduce magic power isn't limiting uses, it's limiting spell access. The perfect caster for the game you're describing? It's a warlock.

I'm sorry but did you even read the OP?

[Psyren]

So you want it to have martial weapon proficiency, 3/4 BAB, and d8 HD... but not be a gish? I'm a bit confused...

How about an Erudite, but with the following modifications?
- 6th-level powers
- Ardent's Powers Known as your UPPD (i.e. 21 instead of 11)
- Ardent saves and HD
- Favored Discipline

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well I want it to be based on the Adept list actually (so technically a 5th level manifester), just treating the spells like a StP Erudite would. The Erudite's Unique Powers Per Day is pretty wonky the more I look at it, so let's reimagine this as a Spirit Shaman type casting mechanic. The class can choose different "powers" off of the Adept list every day to have access to manifest.
But yeah, it's not supposed to be a gish per se, and that's why I'm not just defaulting to Psychic Warrior, though that class would fit into the scenario I want as well.
I agree about kicking the power points up a bit.
I'd recommend against trying to do a spell-to-power thing-- conventional spells weren't written for that, so they always get a bit wonky. Especially the Erudite's rules. I mean, the first thing that jumps out at me is "at 8th level I can raise zombies for free..." Is there a reason you're looking at a psionic version? Because I'd recommend either cherry-picking a list of appropriate powers, or stapling, say, the Duskblade progression onto the Adept's chassis.

[Zombulian]

So you want it to have martial weapon proficiency, 3/4 BAB, and d8 HD... but not be a gish? I'm a bit confused...

How about an Erudite, but with the following modifications?
- 6th-level powers
- Ardent's Powers Known as your UPPD (i.e. 21 instead of 11)
- Ardent saves and HD
- Favored Discipline

Hmm that's a good point. I think I was just lazily trying to fill out the class with combat capabilities because I didn't want them just sitting around when a spell on their limited list doesn't apply to a situation.
The vibe I'm going for here is a character who is essentially on par with the mundanes, but instead of having Full BAB and feats like a fighter, or slightly less BAB + skills and sneakyness for a rogue, this guy has access to some neat magic abilities and knows a lot of stuff. Increased skill points per level may be a good idea.


I'd recommend against trying to do a spell-to-power thing-- conventional spells weren't written for that, so they always get a bit wonky. Especially the Erudite's rules. I mean, the first thing that jumps out at me is "at 8th level I can raise zombies for free..." Is there a reason you're looking at a psionic version? Because I'd recommend either cherry-picking a list of appropriate powers, or stapling, say, the Duskblade progression onto the Adept's chassis.

Again, I am betrayed by my actual lack of knowledge of the Erudite. I mostly liked the idea of powers because Heightening lower level spells is essentially built into the mechanics. Since the adept list is low in the spell level department I thought it would be a way to have DC's keep up with saves. I'm not sure how I could raise zombies for free...
Duskblade spell progression off of the Adept list actually seems like a pretty good solution.

[DEMON]

These are the bits that I've frankensteined together as of this moment:
-Adept Chassis (except for changes below)
-Medium BAB instead of Poor
-Maybe 1 Martial Weapon Proficiency
-Psycrystal at level 2 instead of a Familiar
-Either d8 HD instead of d6, or one more good save in addition to Will
-Prepares powers like an Erudite (off of the whole of the Adept list instead of choosing powers known), using the Adepts spells per day progression as its unique powers per day
-Power Points per day as Psywar

How does this look? How do you think it would play? What would you change?

Edit: I've realized that Psionics doesn't have a way to deal with 0 Level spells, unless Erudite has a way (I'm afb rn).

Are you dead set on going for psionics?

Looking at this, a Bard is actually not too far from the base chassi.
And you could just replace their spell list with the Adept's, if that's what you're aiming for.

Other similarly tiered casters that come to mind are Duskblade, Warmage, Shugenja and Healer, but 3 of these are actually full casters (with 9th level spells) with weak-ish spell lists.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm that's a good point. I think I was just lazily trying to fill out the class with combat capabilities because I didn't want them just sitting around when a spell on their limited list doesn't apply to a situation.
The vibe I'm going for here is a character who is essentially on par with the mundanes, but instead of having Full BAB and feats like a fighter, or slightly less BAB + skills and sneakyness for a rogue, this guy has access to some neat magic abilities and knows a lot of stuff. Increased skill points per level may be a good idea.
Can I plug my Ritualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325646-The-Ritualist-A-tier-3-crafter-spellbook-user-maybe-%283-5-PEACH%29)? They're a sort of more sage-y, limited Wizard-- they do most of their casting through rituals, and their fighting through (slightly powered-up) Reserve feats.


Again, I am betrayed by my actual lack of knowledge of the Erudite. I mostly liked the idea of powers because Heightening lower level spells is essentially built into the mechanics. Since the adept list is low in the spell level department I thought it would be a way to have DC's keep up with saves. I'm not sure how I could raise zombies for free...
Duskblade spell progression off of the Adept list actually seems like a pretty good solution.
The StP rules were very poorly written. For a start, all the scaling and stuff applies only to damage-dealing spells (and then only ones that do dice of damage)-- everything else casts at full CL and requires no augmentation, and no augmentation anywhere increases save DC. Your spells still have verbal and somatic components (ACF is anyone's guess), but for the low, low price of 2pp, you can ignore expensive material components or focuses. That's how you can do free Animate Dead. Or Raise Dead. Or Continual Flame (goodbye, WBL limits!). Or Stoneskin. Or True Seeing.

[Zombulian]

Are you dead set on going for psionics?

Looking at this, a Bard is actually not too far from the base chassi.
And you could just replace their spell list with the Adept's, if that's what you're aiming for.

Other similarly tiered casters that come to mind are Duskblade, Warmage, Shugenja and Healer, but 3 of these are actually full casters (with 9th level spells) with weak-ish spell lists.

I've become progressively less interested in psionics as this discussion has gone on. I'm also sheepishly realizing the further I zero in on what I want out of this class... it's very close to a Wisdom-based Bardic Sage, I just am not interested in the face role or music being a part of it. I think I'll steal the Bardic Knowledge ability and warp it to my means.


Can I plug my Ritualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325646-The-Ritualist-A-tier-3-crafter-spellbook-user-maybe-%283-5-PEACH%29)? They're a sort of more sage-y, limited Wizard-- they do most of their casting through rituals, and their fighting through (slightly powered-up) Reserve feats.


The StP rules were very poorly written. For a start, all the scaling and stuff applies only to damage-dealing spells (and then only ones that do dice of damage)-- everything else casts at full CL and requires no augmentation, and no augmentation anywhere increases save DC. Your spells still have verbal and somatic components (ACF is anyone's guess), but for the low, low price of 2pp, you can ignore expensive material components or focuses. That's how you can do free Animate Dead. Or Raise Dead. Or Continual Flame (goodbye, WBL limits!). Or Stoneskin. Or True Seeing.

Thanks for the plug! It's not exactly what I'm looking for but it helped direct my thoughts in the right direction, and I wanna steal your ritual idea for casting spells, but maybe with a different twist. The general flavor that's coming together in my mind is a sort of Shamanism & Prophecy idea.
How's this:
Traditionalist: The Traditionalist is an important member of a spiritual society. These are the people who are trained in the oral histories of their people. Their way of life, belief system, and even knowledge of the natural world are carried to them in chants and recitations that they practice every day.
Hit Die: d6
6+int skills (need help with the list)
Good Will Save
Medium BAB
Simple Proficiencies
Casting: Prepared with Duskblade Progression off of the Adept list

Class Features:
Illiterate: Duh
Oral History: Similar to Bardic Knowledge (class level + wis modifier), but can be used in place of any knowledge check, instead of those mostly related to history. (With the expanded usage it may need to turn into a progression throughout the class of how many times per day they can use it)
Memory Unearthed: At level 3 and every three levels thereafter, a Traditionalist, through meditation, dreams, or chanting, uncovers a bit of lore that they had not internalized in their training. Each time they gain this ability, a Traditionalist may choose a field of the Knowledge skill. From now on, they gain a +3 bonus to their Oral History check regarding that field of Knowledge.
Taboo: Every time a Traditionalist unearths a memory, they choose something from which to abstain. Example: wearing a certain color, drinking alcohol, cutting hair, growing hair, etc.


I have a few more ideas that I'm unsure about where to put in the progression. I'd like the class to get the Dreamtelling -> Improved Oneiromancy line, but I'm not sure the right levels.
I also want to add a ritual aspect like Grod's class.
Chant of Blessing:something like spend 10 minutes (maybe per spell-level, but that seems more appropriate to the Ritualist who doesn't have spell slots) to use a spell slot to cast a spell off of their spell list that they hadn't prepared that day. Maybe a Concentration check should go along with it.
Not sure if I wanna add a familiar.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems pretty neat. Perhaps instead of the bland-ish +3 bonus, Memory Unleashed lets you use your Wisdom modifier?

[Zombulian]

Seems pretty neat. Perhaps instead of the bland-ish +3 bonus, Memory Unleashed lets you use your Wisdom modifier?

Mmm. Oral History already uses your Wis modifier but I could switch it to Int and then MU would definitely seem a lot more worth it.

[Zombulian]

Seems pretty neat. Perhaps instead of the bland-ish +3 bonus, Memory Unleashed lets you use your Wisdom modifier?

Would it be reasonable to multiply the Wisdom mod to all of the picked fields at certain levels?
Like: x1.25@lvl5, x1.5@lvl10, x1.75@15, and x2@20?