Dragonborn of Bahamut flight?

[Xarteros]

I'm running a campaign where all of my players have become Dragonborn of Bahamut (DoB), and through one means or another, they all need to be able to fly (most have taken the Wings option from DoB). Now, upon reaching 6HD, the wings become powerful enough to grant the base creature a fly speed of 30ft.

Barbarian Fast Movement explicitly states it grants a +10 land speed, but something like a Monk says it grants a +Xft enhancement bonus to speed. If a speed bonus doesn't specify the type of speed to which it applies (or directly specifies all speeds/modes of movement), does this mean a DoB Monk would be able to fly at 50ft by 6th level? Would it be retroactive to all such speed bonuses, or would it only apply to bonuses gained thereafter?

As a second question, one of my players has asked me about the Mineral Warrior template (which is directly an acquired template, simply granted by a spell). Mineral Warrior explicitly states that the base creature loses any ability to fly, but pre-6th HD/level, a DoB with the Wings aspect only has a glide ability, and only gains the Fly speed at 6th. What is your interpretation? If they become a Mineral Warrior pre-6th HD/level, should they be able to gain flight by 6th or just simply never get it? Would they also, by nature, lose their ability to glide? My first instinct was to say that RAI, they can never gain any ability to fly, but that seems silly when there are so many methods of flight that aren't impacted by your weight or bulkiness at all.

I'm the DM, so I know it's my call, but I like making informed decisions and weighing the various arguments to determine my choice.

Thanks for any input!

[ATHATH]

@Second Question: Yeah, he should be able to gain flight at 6 HD. Think of it as the wings compensating for the increased body mass that's present when they "upgrade" (so to speak)- otherwise, how would large Dragonborn be able to fly?

[Gildedragon]

1) Yes, monk dragonborn fly faster. the bonus applies to all speeds
2) Yes... provided they got the template BEFORE they hit 6 HD

[Fizban]

I don't know where the main rule would be found, but the Stormwrack monk ACFs make it clear that even monk fast movement only applies to land speed so I'm fairly certain the default is that unspecified speed is always land speed. As for how land speed bonuses interact with flight derived from your land speed: since speed bonuses only apply to certain speeds, the obvious ruling would be that it uses your base speed only, ignoring your fast movement bonuses.

As for Mineral Warrior, it removes natural flight because you're now a piece of rock. And while there are some pieces of rock that fly with wings, they were designed that way from the start, while as a templated creature you weren't. So the template says you lose flight. If you agree that the RAI should make them unable to fly, then they can't fly. The only question is weather it will be more interesting/fun if the mineral warrior can fly along with the rest, or if it would be better to make him pay for that burrow speed by losing flight as intended. Considering how easy-mode most of mineral warrior is, I'd say he should definitely lose the flight.

Or from the procedural standpoint: do you run other templates with HD based abilities so that they update as you level up? If so, mineral warrior should update as you level up and strip the flight as soon as you get it.

[Xarteros]

I don't know where the main rule would be found, but the Stormwrack monk ACFs make it clear that even monk fast movement only applies to land speed so I'm fairly certain the default is that unspecified speed is always land speed. As for how land speed bonuses interact with flight derived from your land speed: since speed bonuses only apply to certain speeds, the obvious ruling would be that it uses your base speed only, ignoring your fast movement bonuses.

As for Mineral Warrior, it removes natural flight because you're now a piece of rock. And while there are some pieces of rock that fly with wings, they were designed that way from the start, while as a templated creature you weren't. So the template says you lose flight. If you agree that the RAI should make them unable to fly, then they can't fly. The only question is weather it will be more interesting/fun if the mineral warrior can fly along with the rest, or if it would be better to make him pay for that burrow speed by losing flight as intended. Considering how easy-mode most of mineral warrior is, I'd say he should definitely lose the flight.

Or from the procedural standpoint: do you run other templates with HD based abilities so that they update as you level up? If so, mineral warrior should update as you level up and strip the flight as soon as you get it.

Well, it's not just Monk fast movement that's in question here. There are other speed bonuses that my player has found that explicitly apply to all speeds, not just fail to mention a specific speed it applies to.

My main apprehension is that Mineral Warrior doesn't really mention any weight increase, nor does it come with a size increase, speed loss or type change (unless you count the Earth subtype, which is only a subtype). It's just the outer skin of the creature that becomes stony, so I don't think it's completely unreasonable to rule out flight as a developmental thing.

I understand your argument about the template effectively updating, but then how is that meant to work with stuff like wing Grafts, or class features that allow flight? I imagine if it was supposed to rule out all future modes of flight, it would explicitly specify that you "lose any fly speed from your base race, and you cannot gain any flight speed from any other source". I'm also interested to hear what you think about the basic Glide ability that the Dragonborn get. Would you say that it functions like a fly speed, and RAI should be removed too? Because then, there are a fair few feather-fall themed class features that might also be ruled out from the thematic side of RAI

My current plan is to allow him to develop flight, but instead of having Average maneuverability (with plenty of available feats to increase that), it's going to be Clumsy maneuverability, and maybe no feats or class features will be able to improve it. Plus, Dragonborn flight is already very limited, which is why it's one of my favourite flights. It takes quite a while before they can fly continuously at all, and in the meantime they have to fly between gliding.

[Fizban]

The main place to look for what the phrase "speed bonus" is supposed to mean by default would be the FAQ, but people hate the FAQ. If you already know which speed bonuses are in question you should look for discussions on those bonuses. Otherwise, PCs (and most monsters) aren't even supposed to have flight normally, so the assumption of intent should always be that speed bonus defaults to land speed.

Do any other templates mention weight increases? Grafts become a natural ability of the creature, they'd fail. Ex Class abilities could go either way, but as they come from class advancement rather than natural body type, that can actually make sense for overriding the template. Glide is just weaker flight, gone (don't get me started on the insanely low glide ratio and low fly speeds in general). Magic is magic and doesn't care. Slow Fall is a wall drag, not flight, it works.

Clumsy flight is practically useless in combat, but other than requiring more time and room to gain altitude it still lets you invalidate plenty of barriers. You can build around that to create restricted areas where the flight isn't good enough, but it'd be easier to just nix the flight altogether if you want to play on one member's flight being worse.

[Xarteros]

The main place to look for what the phrase "speed bonus" is supposed to mean by default would be the FAQ, but people hate the FAQ. If you already know which speed bonuses are in question you should look for discussions on those bonuses. Otherwise, PCs (and most monsters) aren't even supposed to have flight normally, so the assumption of intent should always be that speed bonus defaults to land speed.

Do any other templates mention weight increases? Grafts become a natural ability of the creature, they'd fail. Ex Class abilities could go either way, but as they come from class advancement rather than natural body type, that can actually make sense for overriding the template. Glide is just weaker flight, gone (don't get me started on the insanely low glide ratio and low fly speeds in general). Magic is magic and doesn't care. Slow Fall is a wall drag, not flight, it works.

Clumsy flight is practically useless in combat, but other than requiring more time and room to gain altitude it still lets you invalidate plenty of barriers. You can build around that to create restricted areas where the flight isn't good enough, but it'd be easier to just nix the flight altogether if you want to play on one member's flight being worse.

I don't really see why Monk speed wouldn't apply to other speeds. If you're some form of aquatic creature, and you can swim through water as fast as you can walk on land, why should practice, exercise and special physical training only apply to your ability to walk and run? Improving your ability to move quickly should apply to any physical movement, and I can't really imagine why such training can't also apply to your wings, or any racial burrowing speed you might have. I imagine the Monk speed bonus being attributed to the intensely lean musculature that they form through rigorous exercise and training. I see what you mean about the Stormwrack ACF though, the implication pretty straightforward. I guess it's a matter of Specific trumps General here, but I'd also happily say that because of that ACF, you just choose what speed your Monk bonus applies to, and it applies to that speed alone (as long as you wear no armour and stick to light loads only, as usual)

I know that there probably aren't any templates that specifically mention a weight increase, but I feel that if the issue were a matter of weight due to your stony outer skin, it would mention a lot of other specific problems too. If you are too heavy to gain any form of natural flight, should it not also impede your ability to move silently, and grant you bonuses against being tripped/pushed/overrun? Would a huge increase in weight that prohibits your flight not also impose massive penalties on swim checks, or maybe even climb/tumble etc?

I feel like it's meant to be the theme of being bound to earth that makes you lose your flight; so it's not a physiological incapability, it's a thematic loss. If the issue lies in your body being no-longer able to naturally support wings, or somehow completely losing them, then Grafts ought to still work. Grafts aren't made of your essence, they are taken from another, functional creature and bound to your body using extraordinary means. Since grafts aren't limited to creatures with compatible anatomies (Warforged can get Fiendish grafts, Humans can get Warforged grafts etc), then it isn't an issue of any physiological failure of your body. Because of this, if you had Fiendish Wing grafts, they wouldn't require to be connected to any tendons or nerves to actually function, so as long as they had enough power to lift a normal creature of your weight, I don't see how it would be any different to flying via magical means (or from being hoisted by a rope for that matter).

To the point of Glide, you're effectively just increasing the physical drag your body generates in order to slow your descent. If the 'binding-to-earth' theme was the reason for flight loss, wouldn't this also mean that you couldn't use any form of parachute (parachutes... of a sort... exist in my campaign, as do hang gliders and similar apparatus)? As to slow fall, I'm not talking about slow fall. I'm talking about non-spell based Feather Fall. I found a class somewhere that gains an incremental Ex or Su feather-fall effect that gets gradually better, allowing them to drift down short distances and slow their descent, explicitly without needing to be adjacent to a wall.

I still want the party to be able to overcome a lot of barriers with flight, and the Dragonborn flight is already so slow and limited that it's not going to be heavily abused. I figured clumsy flight would basically rule it out as a combat option, so it would primarily just be for travel. The terrain and architecture I have in mind for the campaign is heavily dependent on flight, so it's important that everyone have either a flight or glide ability to get around without plummeting to their death. I still don't want to just wave my hand and say "lol DM magic", so that's why I came here

Sorry if I sound argumentative mate, I'm really appreciative of your input and your opinion. I get pushy in discussions to make sure all the angles are nicely covered, and so I can feel sure that the decision has been well thought-through

[MHCD]

I feel like it's meant to be the theme of being bound to earth that makes you lose your flight; so it's not a physiological incapability, it's a thematic loss.

I think this is the key part here. Let's look a little further.


A mineral warrior is a creature that has undergone a transformation into a creature of living stone... The creature's type remains the same, but it gains the earth subtype.


Earth Subtype: This subtype usually is used for elementals and outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane of Earth. Earth creatures usually have burrow speeds, and most earth creatures can burrow through solid rock.

Air Subtype: This subtype usually is used for elementals and outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane Air. Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability.

Earth Elemental: Earth Mastery (Ex)
An earth elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.


Air and Earth are opposing elements (like fire and water), and many creatures that have an association with one exist in a state antithetical to the other. If your Rules As Interpreted is that the Rules As Intended state a Mineral Warrior creature should never have an innate fly speed, that would not be unreasonable.

However, not all (Earth) creatures lack fly speeds. For especially appropriate precedent, there are two true dragons in core (blue and copper, one chromatic and one metallic) that have the earth subtype and natural fly speeds.

As the actual dragonborn ability discussed here is Draconic Aspect: Wings (Ex): Flight: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColonCancer) "When a dragonborn who selected the wings aspect reaches 6 HD, she gains a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability..."

...Everything is fine by RAW as long as EITHER: DoB is gained before MW and MW is gained before 6HD, OR DoB is gained after MW. Alternatively, the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings (also from RotD) can be used to gain flight on a dragonborn or other dragonblooded character, and would still work by RAW as long as improved dragon wings was taken after MW was applied. So if you wanted to say it's fine or even handwaive the order in which templates were applied or abilities were gained to just let everything work out easily, that would also not be unreasonable.

[Fouredged Sword]

I hope he trusts whoever he has cast mineralize warrior on him. That one year of servitude may bite him in the backside.

[Xarteros]

I hope he trusts whoever he has cast mineralize warrior on him. That one year of servitude may bite him in the backside.

It'll be part of his backstory, rather than something that happens during the game. I intend to have his old master track him down at some point, and try to 'reclaim' him