3.5 I am going against a level 18 Wizard, please please please help

[Giovannie]

I am a level 9 wizard and my party is going against a level 18 I would feel somewhat safe but my group is quiet incompetent, this is the last thing we gotta do to finish the game but I think the DM is just gonna wipe us.

How screwed am I and is their anything I co do to even out the playing field or even win?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you're right at the enemy's doorstep, poke the DM button to try and find the missing part. There's gotta be a macguffin or a plot-point of some kind you've overlooked. It's not great DM'ing but it's better than the alternatives.

Alt A) He expects you to go into this suicide run and will bail you out with a deus ex machina of some sort.

Alt B) The enemy wizard is so hillariously gimped in some aspect of its build that you have to question whether the DM really understands the game at all.

Alt C) He expects you to go into this as you are and pull something out of your butt. He'll be completely shocked when you're crushed.

[GPS]

3.5e you say? God help ye. Not gonna sugarcoat it, that's CR Dead for you. You're dead, that's just how it is unless your DM isn't telling you something. Like, you could try to level the playing field, but unless there's a glaring weaknes marked for your convenience I'd have a new character ready.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I suggest stealing the NPC's character sheet and altering it before slipping it back.

[Kane0]

How competent is the DM compared to the party? A well built and played wizard will wreck you, an ill prepared and underutilized one will be wiped all over the floor by the party.

If he's level 18 see if you can read up on him, chances are he's famous (or infamous). Might give you some understanding on what to expect.

[Giovannie]

My DM is quite a capable guy, I am the veteran of the party but he is the second.

The situation
BBEG wants mcguffin, we track down mcguffin
2Late.JPG
he has it in his hands freaking time stops/teleports away
we kill his 2nd in command figure out where he lives
DM tells us after we leave town percentiles will be rolled till he figure out mcguffian and become 5x stronger
we have a single day of prep.
I am level 9 and he has given next to no magic items because all he does it say roll percentiles for loot and we all suck at rolling

he seems not to scale just win or die, I try to RP out of most situations but I cant do that in this case

anything, spell disruptors, magic items to buy ETC

ANYTHING HELPS

[Mechalich]

Your only hope is an immediate ambush - since this wizard has time stop he can use time stop if he gets to take even a single standard action, at which point you are hosed (honestly, if your party already encountered this guy, why did he teleport away rather than simply killing you all?).

You could maybe try some sort of antimagic field strategy - if you can get a scroll. There are lot's of ways around that approach, but if the DM isn't playing the wizard as particularly aware it's probably your best chance. Get the wizard alone, get him inside the field, pummel him down before he can escape.

[Kane0]

Hire two parties of lower level adventurers to take him on, with an hour gap or so between them. Both of them will get wasted but he'll use some spell slots to do it.

Third time's the charm.

Alternatively go all in for immediate ambush and try to restrict his casting (poisons, grapples, antimagic, whatever). Slightly better chances if he's distracted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My DM is quite a capable guy, I am the veteran of the party but he is the second.

The situation
BBEG wants mcguffin, we track down mcguffin
2Late.JPG
he has it in his hands freaking time stops/teleports away
we kill his 2nd in command figure out where he lives
DM tells us after we leave town percentiles will be rolled till he figure out mcguffian and become 5x stronger
we have a single day of prep.
I am level 9 and he has given next to no magic items because all he does it say roll percentiles for loot and we all suck at rolling

he seems not to scale just win or die, I try to RP out of most situations but I cant do that in this case

anything, spell disruptors, magic items to buy ETC

ANYTHING HELPS

Then you die. Without a mcguffin, that's just too big a gap to cover. Retreat to some other part of the world until you're closer in level.

[Rynjin]

My DM is quite a capable guy, I am the veteran of the party but he is the second.

The situation
BBEG wants mcguffin, we track down mcguffin
2Late.JPG
he has it in his hands freaking time stops/teleports away
we kill his 2nd in command figure out where he lives
DM tells us after we leave town percentiles will be rolled till he figure out mcguffian and become 5x stronger
we have a single day of prep.
I am level 9 and he has given next to no magic items because all he does it say roll percentiles for loot and we all suck at rolling

he seems not to scale just win or die, I try to RP out of most situations but I cant do that in this case

anything, spell disruptors, magic items to buy ETC

ANYTHING HELPS

Cast "Summon Good GM". Or "Decent GM". Or "Sort Of ****ty But Still Fun To Play With GM".

Really, anything but this guy.

[Kami2awa]

Don't go. It's certain death. No sensible person, however brave, would walk into this scenario if they had the choice.

Instead, start making preparations for the world after the BBEG has won. Unless they're going to destroy the entire world, you can still be the resistance. That can be the next campaign.

[Jaelommiss]

Someone won't get to eighteenth level without making a few enemies along the way.

That dragon he killed back at fifth level? Momma wants revenge.

Those devils he banished from a coastal city at level 11? Their boss sent them back to the material plane on some other job, and they'd gladly take a two day detour to get revenge.

That duke who wanted to commission the wizard to craft something for him then got laughed away because he wasn't offering enough to be worth his time? Let's just say that nobility tends not to like being spurned by peasants, regardless of how much sorcerous blood fills them.

And then there's that rival wizard, always just two levels behind, who'd leap at a chance to steal his spellbook and library.


I'm having a hard time wording this in a way that doesn't seem patronizing. You know that a level 9 party has no hope in a direct confrontation, so the obvious answer is to not make it a direct confrontation. Instead of hoping to find some loophole that lets you win a fight you shouldn't stand a chance in, pursue information and contacts that are angry enough at your enemy that they'd be willing to help you (or let you help them) take him down.

I pulled this when the DM set a Balor and his hosts on my level 5 wizard. After two months of games where we ran away from his packs of hell hounds and squads of soldiers, my research turned up information about the Balor's worshippers and holdings across the multiverse. Selling this to a couple of celestial hosts got his home wrecked pretty fast (and his boss offered the newly opened position to me).

Knowing your enemy and your enemy's enemies will serve you more than trying to find a way to stand toe to toe with him.

[Beneath]

+1 to the "get someone else to deal with him" idea

Or, like. Let this timer slip. You don't have to go on a suicide mission you can't win. Like still keep an eye out for opportunities, but this is your "we've lost. This is what us losing looks like" moment. Make preparations to go to ground, recover, and take ground back from him once he's spread out.

it _may_ be possible for you to pull a scry-and-die on him successfully. maybe. don't count on it. If you let him get a single action, you die. It'd be better to get someone else to do it. Find someone with a few levels on you who also wants the mcguffin and tip them off that they can get their hands on it if they scry-and-die him.

[Esprit15]

Talk to his enemies. Make him some enemies. Dragons, do you really want one of us squishy, lesser beings to gain this kind of power? Devils, do you think this guy will leave your hierarchy alone? Angels, are you going to stand by and let this happen? If so, can you maybe give us some advice?

[Morcleon]

Buy a bunch of aboleth mucus (enough for everyone to have at least one attack) and have your party members, companions, summoned creatures all throw them at the wizard in an ambush. Considering a wizard's usually low touch AC, you'll hit most of your first-round throws. They'll likely fail the save (Fort DC 19) for one of these throw and lose the ability to breathe air for 3 hours. Then just run away for the minute or two it takes for them to die.

Or, buy 20 doses of Insanity Mist and have an Unseen Servant drop them all in the wizard's square. 20 DC 18 Fort saves for a lot of Con damage. And then run away for the minute it takes the poison to get to its secondary effect.

Alternately, do both. :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

I am level 9 and he has given next to no magic items because all he does it say roll percentiles for loot and we all suck at rolling

Beginner DM alert.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4727138/red-alert-o.gif

He is likely not aware the wizard can kill you or wants to play him like a megalomaniac. Torturing and teasing the heroes, not killing them. Possibly even leaving them alone in an unnecessarily slow death apparatus after he has told them his plan for world domination.

Are there chances his wizard levels aren't all his own? Like the McGuffin has upped his arcane abilities tenfold (aka giving him 4-6 extra levels of wizard). But ye, honestly in this scenario you are not the heroes to stop him. Get some outside forces. But I'd say not betrayed or evil allies (that surely backfires) but any and all good forces in the immediate vicinity.

Is there a Paladin order in the next city? Cast sending in order to get a few high level Paladins on your side. Know that wizard academy a few streets down? For the love of god, ask them for help. If you are a 9th level Wizard you are well aware that you can't go against a powerful archmage like that. In any sane scenario I'd say you pick as many counterspell options as possible but you are not powerful for that. You can possibly counter a few fireballs but not the truly devastating spells. Think about it. Even a quickened Fireball plus a Delayed Blast Fireball kills most of your party. And that is not a really powerful combo by the standards of this forum.

[GPS]

Ally with a Lich and try some intense minionmancy. It's not as attractive as allying with a dragon, but it'll pay off. High level mage vs high level mage is the best combo you can hope for.

[The_Jette]

I am a level 9 wizard and my party is going against a level 18 I would feel somewhat safe but my group is quiet incompetent, this is the last thing we gotta do to finish the game but I think the DM is just gonna wipe us.

How screwed am I and is their anything I co do to even out the playing field or even win?

Other than "Get a new GM" or "You guys are going to die, so deal with it" there's one thing you can try that might just work. Think about everything that can be done to you that will screw up your casting, and try it against the Wizard. It might not work, but then again, it might. If there's an archer in the group, have him ready an action against the Wizard attempting anything involving casting or using a magic item. When he tries to cast, the archer fires and attempts to disrupt. Get your melee guy in close. Rogues can sneak into position first (assuming the Wizard is distracted attempting to fire up the MacGuffin), and sneak attack at the same time that the Ranger is firing his arrow to get the Concentration check as high as possible. Casting defensively only gets rid of AoO, not readied actions. Since you're the opposing wizard, prepare spells that rely on Constitution saves. If you can, do anything to reduce the Wizard's Con or Reflex save, then spam spells that rely on saving against those. With any luck, you'll be able to damage the Wizard fast enough, and the rest of the party will be able to prevent him from casting. If you can lock him down, he's just a 18hd creature that can't cast. If he gets off even one spell, it might be a game changer. Then again, the one spell that he fires off might be a fireball against your Rogue that the Rogue manages to evade...

[redwizard007]

Close the gap. Get melee types as close to the wizard as possible. With surprise, luck, and a forgiving DM you might stand a chance.

Use Fort save or no save spells. Think creatively here. Sometimes a lower level spell can have a surprising impact. Grease and Glitter Dust have both saved my ass at least once.

Disjunction. It's an option. A crazy, crazy option.

Allies. Just like everyone else has mentioned. Action economy is a real thing.

Swarms. If you can arrange one, it can be quite a nice trick.

Pray. This is a game with interactive gods. Use them.

[flappeercraft]

Right now you gotta play this like chess in a way. He is the king and all the party is like pawns. You have to strategize here in a way he won't foresee. Obviously begin with having some way of reducing his spell slots like an ally, mercenaries, etc and follow that with a full on attack from the party, make an ambush and have the party melee fighters have Silence spell centered them and just flank him and if possible trip him. Use BFC such as wall of sand/stone to close off all exits you can and just start killing him while he has spell slots wasted, can't cast most spells and is trapped between a melee fighter or 2 while tripped. If necessary have someone in there be ready to interrupt his spells if he somehow gets the chance to cast any.

If your dm is actually prepared for something like this the most likely thing is that you're screwed.

[druid zook]

Make or buy dust of sneezing and choking (cursed item, DMG). Set up ambush with readied actions. One spellcaster uses antimagic field and everyone rushes the stunned wizard in melee. Grapple him. Pin him. Kill him. Timing and planning are everything.

[ATHATH]

Make or buy dust of sneezing and choking (cursed item, DMG). Set up ambush with readied actions. One spellcaster uses antimagic field and everyone rushes the stunned wizard in melee. Grapple him. Pin him. Kill him. Timing and planning are everything.
Seconding this and the "find allies/enemies of my enemy" thing.

[Morcleon]

Make or buy dust of sneezing and choking (cursed item, DMG). Set up ambush with readied actions. One spellcaster uses antimagic field and everyone rushes the stunned wizard in melee. Grapple him. Pin him. Kill him. Timing and planning are everything.

Going off of this, you can use the dust, cast antimagic field, then bring a portable hole filled with just enough lava for full submersion, but not enough to drop them out of the antimagic field area, and push them in there. Wait a few rounds before the 20d6 damage finishes them off.

[Rynjin]

Make or buy dust of sneezing and choking (cursed item, DMG). Set up ambush with readied actions. One spellcaster uses antimagic field and everyone rushes the stunned wizard in melee. Grapple him. Pin him. Kill him. Timing and planning are everything.

Yeah, uh, problem there: Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a magic item. Doesn't Work in an Antimagic Field. Another fun fact: An 18th level Wizard has the same BaB as this party's Fighter. That's the problem with attacking someone with that huge a level gap.

I'm don't really play 3.5 but I can think of three other ways off the top of my head a Pathfinder Wizard could completely negate this tactic with only the normal amount of "Hour/level prepared contingencies" preparation. I'm like 90% sure a 3.5 Wizard could do the same or better.

Of course the GM probably hasn't thought that far ahead, but he also probably wouldn't let the party just buy a Cursed Item anyway considering all their loot is randomly rolled. Ditto buying a Scroll of Antimagic Field or Portable Hole. So this tactic is DOA.

[Vizzerdrix]

Is he in a tower? Bring the whole thing down with books packed full of explosive runes. Wait till he is in bed or on the john.

[daremetoidareyo]

Liquify your assets.
Planar bind some high power allies to steal the mcguffin back.

[Inevitability]

Try to get a Shivering Touch, Curse of the Putrid Husk, Stop Heart, or similar SoL to affect him. Whatever you use needs to take the wizard out in a single round: anything more and he'll have the time to just Time Stop and kill everyone.

Something that doesn't allow a saving throw, such as Lahm's Finger Darts, is even better.

If the wizard needs to hold the MacGuffin, Grim Revenge can be used to disable his other hand, removing his ability to cast spells with somatic components (unless he's got Still Spell, of course).

If all else fails, stabbing the wizard with a Dragon Bile-laced dagger tends to work as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Alternatively....switch sides. You're outclassed and are likely going to die, and you know it. We know it. The DM (probably) knows it. So go to the wizard, and offer to become the first of his new minions since you've seen his overwhelming power.

You might even be sincere. Utterly, completely derail whatever the GM has planned by completely ignoring the unwinnable fight and rewriting the premise of the campaign.

[druid zook]

If cost is no object, buy scrolls or staff with maximized time stop and two quickened dimension doors. Cast time stop followed by dimension door. Set up portable hole next to target. Next round, suspend bag of holding in mid-air above portable hole. Dimension door away. Done.

[druid zook]

Yeah, uh, problem there: Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a magic item. Doesn't Work in an Antimagic Field.

Once it's used on wizard, then antimagic field doesn't negate being stunned.

[Fouredged Sword]

Buy yourself a vaporal desert throwing knife and two scrolls of surge of fortune. You can force a nat 20 and decapitate him without offering a save.

[flappeercraft]

Well a single 4th level spell could completely negate that. Celerity (a 18th level wizard will probably have foresight on him at all times) or Friendly fire in which case you would be even more screwed as now one of you is dead.

[Darrin]

Buy some Chaos Flasks (100 GP, Planar Handbook). If they aren't immediately available, cast planar binding to call up a janni or githzerai, bargain or plane shift to Limbo to pick up some raw chaos stuff yourself. Give the flask to the cleric or whoever has the highest Wis. If your can avoid tipping your hand to the DM, buff his Wis as high as possible, then load him up with anything that gives him a bonus on ability checks (focusing chant, improvisation, good hope, etc.). If you think the DM will get suspicious, then just make sure everybody has a flask and hope one of you rolls high enough to pull this off.

Scry up the BBEG to get his location, teleport in with readied actions. Whoever has the Chaos Flask, they need to make a Wis check DC 13 as a free action to turn the contents of the Chaos Flask into Flux Slime (ELH p. 107). Among other things, this radiates a 10' antimagic field. Take your readied action as soon as the teleport resolves so the BBEG doesn't get a chance to act. Throw the slime or move into close proximity to the BBEG. This should shut down any magic items and his spellcasting abilities for a short time. The thing about AMFs is if you don't specifically prepare for them, they are really, really, *really* hard to counter. But if he can step out of the 10' radius, he'll shove a TPK sandwich down your throat. So have the meatbags charge in to grapple, locking him down in that square. Dust eggshell grenades (10 GP, Oriental Adventures) could also soften him up, as once he's blind, his movement is halved, he no longer threatens the squares around him, and you can attack him as if you're invisible. From there, you can nickel-and-dime him to death with poison, drugs, aboleth mucus, or whatever.

Otherwise, contact whatever local deity might have an interest in intervening and go from there.

[flappeercraft]

What about getting Aboleth Mucus, its a Fort save DC 20 or lose the ability to breath air for an amount basically no one who needs air short of something like pun pun would survive. Its from MotP or PH IIRC

[Inevitability]

What about getting Aboleth Mucus, its a Fort save DC 20 or lose the ability to breath air for an amount basically no one who needs air short of something like pun pun would survive. Its from MotP or PH IIRC

Well-optimized wizards are one of the few things aboleth mucus doesn't work well against. It takes several minutes for the target to drop dead: more than enough time for him to kill every enemy and remove the condition with any of a number of spells.

[Morcleon]

Well-optimized wizards are one of the few things aboleth mucus doesn't work well against. It takes several minutes for the target to drop dead: more than enough time for him to kill every enemy and remove the condition with any of a number of spells.

I'm failing to think of any spells that would help with aboleth mucus that a wizard would have prepared normally. Any poison removing spells don't work because it's not a poison. Air Breathing doesn't work because that's still going to be taken away. Water Breathing works, but it's not a spell that they'd likely have prepared, and they'd also need to find a bucket to stick their head into. Necklace of Adaptation doesn't work because it just provides air rather than giving the ability to breathe anything.

[Eleriel]

Well, with that kind of gap in the levels, it should be almost impossible against any class.
However, it is past impossible with a wizard, any wizard past 17 that is now living in his own plane and going to the material plane with astral projection and plane shift, is doing it wrong...
If he is optimized, he can have copy of solars as his soldiers or have free whishes, he can have caster lvl past 40 with circle magic, infinite spells with absorption and energy transformation field... the list is endless
A simple army of skeletons that he used PaO on, would be enough to finish a group of lvl 9.

Sorry... your DM is going to kill you all

[Inevitability]

I'm failing to think of any spells that would help with aboleth mucus that a wizard would have prepared normally. Any poison removing spells don't work because it's not a poison. Air Breathing doesn't work because that's still going to be taken away. Water Breathing works, but it's not a spell that they'd likely have prepared, and they'd also need to find a bucket to stick their head into. Necklace of Adaptation doesn't work because it just provides air rather than giving the ability to breathe anything.

Changing shape into something that doesn't breathe, perhaps? Alternatively, getting the aquatic subtype and a source of water.

Veil of Undeath is one of the best buffs in the game, and removes one's need to breathe.

[Gildedragon]

I honestly dig the chaos flask antimagic + aboleth mucus tactic + dogpiling the wizard and having a rogue CdG the pinned wizard
There's something primordialy murder-hobo-y in offing an 18th level wizard with such tactics
Two questions are raised:
1: how much XP?!
2: 9th level adventurers offing an 18th level wizard is bound to draw attention to the party. I'd expect gods and high wizards to become super wary about the party... If they can do that at level 9, what won't they do at level 20

[flappeercraft]

Well-optimized wizards are one of the few things aboleth mucus doesn't work well against. It takes several minutes for the target to drop dead: more than enough time for him to kill every enemy and remove the condition with any of a number of spells.

That is why you shoot and peace out, maybe leave a couple of summons, binds or mercenaries there to distract him or stop him from casting anything that allows him to breath again such as changing shape to a shape that doesn't need to or cast something that removes the need to. Also, who said he was going to see you, by 9th level an optimized archer/crossbowman could have well over 1,000 ft range at no penalty and then leave or just be in a Mordenkainens Private Sanctum to avoide detection.


Changing shape into something that doesn't breathe, perhaps? Alternatively, getting the aquatic subtype and a source of water.

Veil of Undeath is one of the best buffs in the game, and removes one's need to breathe.

Well again, that is why you leave distractions and also in the case he does not have the spells required to survive he is a goner. And also what are the chances that he has create water prepared to get water.

[Rynjin]

I still scratch my head at all this "Use these very specific magic items to take him out" suggestions.

The party doesn't even have basic gear because he makes them roll percentiles for all their loot. They're not getting any of this specialized stuff.

[Morcleon]

I still scratch my head at all this "Use these very specific magic items to take him out" suggestions.

The party doesn't even have basic gear because he makes them roll percentiles for all their loot. They're not getting any of this specialized stuff.

Crafting for magic items (with some sort of free XP item for the crafting) and hunting aboleths for the aboleth mucus.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Crafting for magic items (with some sort of free XP item for the crafting) and hunting aboleths for the aboleth mucus.
I understand there's a time limit as well (d% every day or the wizard "gets 5x stronger"), so that won't work, except on the very cheapest items. Unless this game has fast time planes. In which case, that's the answer.

On the topic of fast time planes: plane shift to the Far Realm, level up to 17+, return to the Material Plane, kill wizard. You'll return at the moment you left (due to infinite time passing in the Far Realm every Material Plane round), so it's basically free XP. It's also just about the stupidest thing possible, but hey, no plan is worthless until the DM has definitely, definitively shut it down.




The Glyphstone has the coolest idea, assuming the DM and party can handle it.

[Giovannie]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I have been brooding over this constantly at break time, searching through books on the daily hoping for some sort of loophole

but it seems a waste, so my plan so far goes as this

buff up super hard before entering (Haste, Fox's Cunning, Bark Skin, Rage, Bulls Strength are the ones I have thought of so far)

get the other caster in my party to cast greater Invisibility on me

get the party to go in and distract with monologue while I sneak in and set up Channeled Sound Blast for the D10 damage and hopefully permanently deafen (>implying that will do anything)

as soon as that kicks off that should begin surprise round and me or other caster do Dimensional Anchor so he cant teleport away

After that I am going to target him with Baleful Blink and hoping he fails the miss chance for his next spell

at which point he should be dead, or maybe my groups is as bad as I think :frown:

[Inevitability]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I have been brooding over this constantly at break time, searching through books on the daily hoping for some sort of loophole

but it seems a waste, so my plan so far goes as this

buff up super hard before entering (Haste, Fox's Cunning, Bark Skin, Rage, Bulls Strength are the ones I have thought of so far)

get the other caster in my party to cast greater Invisibility on me

get the party to go in and distract with monologue while I sneak in and set up Channeled Sound Blast for the D10 damage and hopefully permanently deafen (>implying that will do anything)

as soon as that kicks off that should begin surprise round and me or other caster do Dimensional Anchor so he cant teleport away

After that I am going to target him with Baleful Blink and hoping he fails the miss chance for his next spell

at which point he should be dead, or maybe my groups is as bad as I think :frown:

With the limited resources you have, that may be your best shot indeed. What other spells do you have?

Also, don't be surprised if the DM starts making up reasons why this doesn't work. Ask him to roll in the open.

[Giovannie]

With the limited resources you have, that may be your best shot indeed. What other spells do you have?

Also, don't be surprised if the DM starts making up reasons why this doesn't work. Ask him to roll in the open.

my spell list is pretty much as follows


Kalgores Firebolt, mage armour, grease, True Casting,

Fox's Cunning, glitter dust, seeking ray, scorching ray, web

Haste, Slow, stinking cloud, fireball,

crushing grip, resilient sphere

channeled sound blast

[ATHATH]

By the way, what items and spells DO you have? What does your party consist of (please include both class and role, just saying "Fighter" won't tell us much)?

[Inevitability]

my spell list is pretty much as follows


Kalgores Firebolt, mage armour, grease, True Casting,

Fox's Cunning, glitter dust, seeking ray, scorching ray, web

Haste, Slow, stinking cloud, fireball,

crushing grip, resilient sphere

channeled sound blast

Stinking Cloud seems like a pretty good option here. Wizards don't tend to have great fortitude saves, and if he gets nauseated he'll probably be out of the fight. Hit him with everything you got while he's vulnerable, and be ready to drop new clouds should they get dispelled or evaded.

[flappeercraft]

What about Web and Stinking Cloud combo and any damage spell that can get through total cover? If you don't have any that can get through total cover use a scroll

[noob]

Is your fighter strong enough for carrying a steel wall(that should be easy to find high level 3.5 wizards make a lot of steel walls and never get to clean them)?
He could then bring some cover at tactical moments.


What about Web and Stinking Cloud combo and any damage spell that can get through total cover? If you don't have any that can get through total cover use a scroll

Stinking cloud brings total concealment.
You can throw a fireball without knowing exactly where he is if the cloud is small enough or if you are sure he have not moved much(which is true if the web worked)

[Rynjin]

Stinking Cloud seems like a pretty good option here. Wizards don't tend to have great fortitude saves, and if he gets nauseated he'll probably be out of the fight. Hit him with everything you got while he's vulnerable, and be ready to drop new clouds should they get dispelled or evaded.

Again, level gap. An 18th level Wizard has the same base Fort save bonus as the party's 9th level Fighter. He probably (if properly geared...which admittedly isn't actually a guarantee with how this DM does loot) has between 16 and 20 Con as well, plus a +5 Cloak of Resistance.

This pegs him at a +14-+16 Fort save, vs the OP's likely DC 18-19 Stinking Cloud (assuming he started with a 20, the max his Int can be is 22 since they don't have stat boosters).

Chances ain't great.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about hammering him with enervation? If levels are the problem, then take them from him. Im sure you could find some of the components for spells that boost necromancy (I know skiurid nuts can, but at a 50% chance to not). You will only have to hit on a touch attack and will hamper his casting and saves with one shot. That should make other things mentioned far more effective.

[Lazymancer]

I'm failing to think of any spells that would help with aboleth mucus that a wizard would have prepared normally.
Magic Jar. There is also Baleful Polymorph (into fish) and Heart of Water (for that Freedom effect as a swift action).

And, frankly, I don't know what kind of cheapskate one needs to be at pre-epic level to not have a sponge with Water Breathing potion. Even a few pages with Sepia Snake Sigil might be enough (though that depends on situation).



as soon as that kicks off that should begin surprise round and me or other caster do Dimensional Anchor so he cant teleport away
So that Wizard will not teleport away from you? Suicidally presumptuous, I'd say. Even Hold Person (which is abysmally bad idea) is better.

Frankly, this is the point when you should either run and start laying groundwork for the Resistance, or go work for the new Dark Overlord. Seriously, I don't know what your GM is thinking, if he didn't explain to you in no uncertain terms that you are begging for TPK. Or why you didn't ask him why he hates you so.

You have a chance only if Wizard is criminally incompetent and you manage to take him out before he starts casting. Except, judging by your spells, you don't have anything that could kill/incapacitate Wizard in surprise round and you don't have enough time to get/learn any. I.e. even if Wizard is criminally incompetent, you can't win.

Personally, I would've tried Flesh to Ice (and force re-roll with Alter Fortune) - chances aren't good (~20%), but this is the best option (provided you somehow manage to surprise Wizard 18). Other than that, Rogue throws 100 Explosive Runes on BBEG and you cast area Dispel.


I think, the only thing that might actually make battle last longer than surprise round (and not end with you dead) is successful Rage - provided Wizard secretly wants to die and doesn't have any SR worth mentioning, nor immunities/contingencies against stuff like this.

[Soranar]

Ok so maybe try the mundane attack

-somebody needs an active AMF

-next comes the pebbles (=to a grease spell)
-and the smoke sticks (fog spell)
-and now the grappling PC (all using aid another to maximize their grapple check)

if you manage to bum rush the wizard it might work. The AMF + the grease spell (stop him from moving out of the AMF) + the smoke sticks (stops outside help from helping, even his familiar will be deadly to you)

[Jay R]

His spells can kill you. You must keep him from casting them. It's that straightforward.

Sneak in when he's sleeping or distracted. Attack him in ways that keep him from casting spells.

[Arbane]

Well, with that kind of gap in the levels, it should be almost impossible against any class.
However, it is past impossible with a wizard, any wizard past 17 that is now living in his own plane and going to the material plane with astral projection and plane shift, is doing it wrong...
If he is optimized, he can have copy of solars as his soldiers or have free whishes, he can have caster lvl past 40 with circle magic, infinite spells with absorption and energy transformation field... the list is endless
A simple army of skeletons that he used PaO on, would be enough to finish a group of lvl 9.

Sorry... your DM is going to kill you all

I don't think the GM is playing Tippy style, or the PCs would currently be the wizard's towel-boys.

[Rynjin]

His spells can kill you. You must keep him from casting them. It's that straightforward.

Sneak in when he's sleeping or distracted. Attack him in ways that keep him from casting spells.

Simple (or straightforward) and EASY are not the same thing. A simple Alarm spell has a solid chance of foiling a simplistic plan like that. If he wins Initiative, you lose. He can kill the whole party with a single spell.

[Jay R]

Simple (or straightforward) and EASY are not the same thing. A simple Alarm spell has a solid chance of foiling a simplistic plan like that. If he wins Initiative, you lose. He can kill the whole party with a single spell.

Agreed. If slaying an 18th level wizard were easy, everyone would be doing it.

But that's still the key -- prevent him from casting spells.

[daremetoidareyo]

Agreed. If slaying an 18th level wizard were easy, everyone would be doing it.

But that's still the key -- prevent him from casting spells.

scroll of Grim revenge for the rogue and another caster UMDer, Readied actions to cast, and readied actions by your fighters wielding: Heavy Aspergilliums (Libris Mortis) filled with Atramen Oil (Planar Handbook) which confers a -4 to fort saves. Hit him with that -4 debuff and hope that you can rip off both of his hands, which then help you level drain him.

[Rerednaw]

Given the gap in experience and actual level, a direct confrontation is suicide. His familiar could TPK the party. Heck his familiar's servant could probably wipe the party.

And no MacGuffin?

Normally I would go with the research approach of finding his former enemies...and the ye old 'Whisper Campaign'. with a bard in the group, judicious use of Glibness, and some fun roleplay, you can turn the entire country against him.

Granted there probably isn't much a L18 wiz wants from the country that he cannot already make or have someone else get for him.

But only 24 hour prep makes even this approach not feasible.

Frankly, I'd have someone in the party cast Plane Shift (assuming you have someone who can) and leave this world behind.

[Jay R]

According to the historical documents, you should never face him directly. Just drop his ring in a volcano while his attention is held by a battle fought at his main gate many miles away.

[Pleh]

Your DM left the deadline specifically to prevent you from choosing to do something else. He wants you to confront the guy. Either he has a special plan to pull your butts out of the fire (which sucks because that means he wants to be the hero instead of your characters) or he doesn't realize you don't really stand a chance.

I say just grit your teeth and go for broke. This whole thing is obviously one kind of mistake or another. Let the chips fall where they may and when things go south, use it as a teachable moment and show your DM why this was a bad idea to begin with. Then everyone at the table promises never to make that mistake again and we roll new characters.

[Xaragos]

Do you have a competent rogue? Buy and use dust of sneezing and choking FTW.

[Jay R]

Your DM left the deadline specifically to prevent you from choosing to do something else. He wants you to confront the guy. Either he has a special plan to pull your butts out of the fire (which sucks because that means he wants to be the hero instead of your characters) or he doesn't realize you don't really stand a chance.

I say just grit your teeth and go for broke. This whole thing is obviously one kind of mistake or another. Let the chips fall where they may and when things go south, use it as a teachable moment and show your DM why this was a bad idea to begin with. Then everyone at the table promises never to make that mistake again and we roll new characters.

Oh, absolutely. Second guessing the DM is always a bad idea, since he always has more knowledge of the situation than you do.

Go in there with the best plan you can come up with. and be prepared to enjoy the satisfaction of dying gloriously on a quest far above your abilities.

But also, be ready for something you didn't plan on to affect things in a big way. [If you "just happen" to get your hands on his wand, don't waste time worrying about curses; use it. That didn't "just happen".]

[Nightcanon]

Is there any possibility that there is a (possibly lame-ass, answer in the teacher's head/ what have I got in my pockets?) solution to this that enables you to solve this without fighting this guy? As in, he only ever wanted to be loved and respected, so a speak with dead from his father saying how proud he is causes him to break down in tears? McGuffin artifact prone to malfunction if a bag of flour is dumped on it or capable of being palmed by a crafty (and Dex-buffed) rogue at the critical moment, possibly while the rest of the party distract him? Did your mother die to save you from this guy's magic, this making you immune to it? Is there any indication that your GM might be planning a non-combat resolution to this that takes the form of an homage to a favourite book or film or computer game? Pratchett, Doctor Who, superhero movies? It seems like if you try to fight this guy you are screwed; perhaps you aren't meant to?

[noob]

Perhaps you are supposed to tell him you will work for him and then have a good position as correct level henchmen of the master of the world.
Then gain a bunch of levels by periodically killing adventurers who came to squash the evil master of the world.

[Jay R]

Perhaps you are supposed to tell him you will work for him and then have a good position as correct level henchmen of the master of the world.
Then gain a bunch of levels by periodically killing adventurers who came to squash the evil master of the world.

Yup. One way to winning is to choose the winning side.

[death390]

please do let us all know how this ends. it is so far out of any 9th level parties league we would all love to know if it ends in TPK, DM fiat, or you actually pull this off.

[daremetoidareyo]

Also have a readied locking garotte from song and silence

[Sagetim]

My DM is quite a capable guy, I am the veteran of the party but he is the second.

The situation
BBEG wants mcguffin, we track down mcguffin
2Late.JPG
he has it in his hands freaking time stops/teleports away
we kill his 2nd in command figure out where he lives
DM tells us after we leave town percentiles will be rolled till he figure out mcguffian and become 5x stronger
we have a single day of prep.
I am level 9 and he has given next to no magic items because all he does it say roll percentiles for loot and we all suck at rolling

he seems not to scale just win or die, I try to RP out of most situations but I cant do that in this case

anything, spell disruptors, magic items to buy ETC

ANYTHING HELPS

Okay. I'm going to share with you one of the greatest secret weaknesses that all wizards have. MURDER HIM IN HIS SLEEP. It doesn't really matter how. Just sneak in while he's sleeping and murder him. Be it with pillow against face or knife through throat to cut vocal cords while the party tough guy breaks his fingers with a hammer. Do not take him on in a straight fight. Just murder him in his sleep. It's not nice, it's not honorable, and it is hilariously far from fair. But that is how you survive against a wizard that much higher level. Alternatively, wait until the fight starts then use some means to make sure the party fighter is next to that wizard as fast as possible. Grapple and kill. Got a party rogue who can sneak worth a damn? have him get ready to rush in for a flank and sneak attack, or even a surprise round shot to the face. did the enemy wizard start with all his buffs ready and so on? Run away. His buffs will run out, and he won't have spells forever. If he blew all his buffs at the start of the day expecting you to be timely, wait for them to run out so that he has to expend further precious resources to remain buffed. Oh, and you can try dropping the ceiling on him, or summoning a wall of iron in between you and him, so that he can't target you while you teleport the fighter next to his last known location.

Wizards have a hard time getting a good AC. And all the damage reduction in the world won't let you cast spells while grappled and pinned by a dude 200 pounds bigger and stronger than you. This wizard probably wasn't built with grappling in mind, so he probably doesn't have a lot of somatic components that are going to help him. Also, Silence is golden, and screws with spells that have verbal components. If you can get him silenced while the fighter grapples him, the rogue can....coup de grace him to death, right? I'm not misremembering rules, am I?

[idesofmarch]

Okay. I'm going to share with you one of the greatest secret weaknesses that all wizards have. MURDER HIM IN HIS SLEEP.

Is this really a weakness? Last I played a high-level spellcaster, I was always sleeping in a magnificent mansion, guarded by bound angels and devils, or in one case sleeping in the sun while protected by a wish.

I don't know how 9th level characters are going to stab me without at least first waking me.

[Jay R]

Also, I should remind you to wait until late afternoon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html) before attacking the high-level wizard. At the earliest.

[Aleolus]

Here's my suggestion. Have the group cleric or druid prepare Antimagic field, then do whatever you can to get them up in the wizards face, where he casts the spell on himself. Divine casters are still decent, even without their magic. Then the other members of the group move to surround him, so he can't move outf the field. You hang back if you can, and proceed to pepper him with spells like Melfs Acid Arrow, since it is a conjuration spell with an instantaneous duration, thus can be cast into an AMF from outside of it. Because no matter how many levels they have, a Wizard in an AMF is just a smart commoner

[ExLibrisMortis]

Here's my suggestion. Have the group cleric or druid prepare Antimagic field, then do whatever you can to get them up in the wizards face, where he casts the spell on himself. Divine casters are still decent, even without their magic. Then the other members of the group move to surround him, so he can't move outf the field. You hang back if you can, and proceed to pepper him with spells like Melfs Acid Arrow, since it is a conjuration spell with an instantaneous duration, thus can be cast into an AMF from outside of it. Because no matter how many levels they have, a Wizard in an AMF is just a smart commoner
It's been suggested a few times, and it still works better than most strategies, but an 18th-level wizard can 5' step out of an antimagic field and stonewall you (literally) until your antimagic runs out. Keeping a wizard locked in and unmoving is not that easy, even in pure brawny melee combat. This wizard could easily have more base attack and AC than the party fighter, depending on feat/PrC choices.

Of course, on that note: wall of stone and antimagic field might work together, one to limit movement, the other to limit magic. You'd need to get them off in the same round, and you're locking the party in a box with an angry wizard, but hey, no plan is perfect.

[Rynjin]

Okay. I'm going to share with you one of the greatest secret weaknesses that all wizards have. MURDER HIM IN HIS SLEEP. It doesn't really matter how. Just sneak in while he's sleeping and murder him. Be it with pillow against face or knife through throat to cut vocal cords while the party tough guy breaks his fingers with a hammer. Do not take him on in a straight fight. Just murder him in his sleep. It's not nice, it's not honorable, and it is hilariously far from fair. But that is how you survive against a wizard that much higher level.

Sneaking into a fortified position to fight a class that has a whole school of magic dedicated to protecting them seems...ill-advised.

Plus you likely only have a 2 hour window to pull off this assassination. If this Wizard even needs to actually sleep at all.


Alternatively, wait until the fight starts then use some means to make sure the party fighter is next to that wizard as fast as possible. Grapple and kill. Got a party rogue who can sneak worth a damn? have him get ready to rush in for a flank and sneak attack, or even a surprise round shot to the face. did the enemy wizard start with all his buffs ready and so on? Run away. His buffs will run out, and he won't have spells forever. If he blew all his buffs at the start of the day expecting you to be timely, wait for them to run out so that he has to expend further precious resources to remain buffed. Oh, and you can try dropping the ceiling on him, or summoning a wall of iron in between you and him, so that he can't target you while you teleport the fighter next to his last known location.

How do you run away? He moves faster than you, most likely. Any Wizard worth their salt will have Overland Flight, Dimension Door, and Greater Teleport.


Wizards have a hard time getting a good AC. And all the damage reduction in the world won't let you cast spells while grappled and pinned by a dude 200 pounds bigger and stronger than you. This wizard probably wasn't built with grappling in mind, so he probably doesn't have a lot of somatic components that are going to help him. Also, Silence is golden, and screws with spells that have verbal components. If you can get him silenced while the fighter grapples him, the rogue can....coup de grace him to death, right? I'm not misremembering rules, am I?

Silent Spell and Still Spell are also pretty common. Assuming you can grapple him when his BaB is the same as your Fighter's, his stats are likely higher, his items are almost certainly better, and he likely has Mirror Images. Assuming the Fighter has Improved Grapple is probably a bad assumption unless he's built down that track, so he's also provoking an AoO that, if he's hit with it, will reduce his chances further.

Also yes, you are misremembering that Silence lets you coup de grace people.

[Sagetim]

Sneaking into a fortified position to fight a class that has a whole school of magic dedicated to protecting them seems...ill-advised.

Plus you likely only have a 2 hour window to pull off this assassination. If this Wizard even needs to actually sleep at all.



How do you run away? He moves faster than you, most likely. Any Wizard worth their salt will have Overland Flight, Dimension Door, and Greater Teleport.



Silent Spell and Still Spell are also pretty common. Assuming you can grapple him when his BaB is the same as your Fighter's, his stats are likely higher, his items are almost certainly better, and he likely has Mirror Images. Assuming the Fighter has Improved Grapple is probably a bad assumption unless he's built down that track, so he's also provoking an AoO that, if he's hit with it, will reduce his chances further.

Also yes, you are misremembering that Silence lets you coup de grace people.

What? Psh. I meant grappling :smalltongue:

And yeah, I was trying to be more humorous than useful there. The point is that wizards are not unkillable gods, they're generally pretty shakable to death as long as you can deal damage to them.

Edit: Oh, and Death Ward is your friend in this fight. A wizard that high level probably has a few save or dies, and if you're lucky they'll be things like Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee, which Death Ward blocks.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Druids don't even get AMF. And clerics don't get AMF until level 15 unless they have the Magic or Protection domain, and even then they only get it at level 11.

And a level 18 wizard still has a higher BAB and more hp than a level 9 cleric or druid in AMF.
Assuming he doesn't just immediate-action teleport out and fry you. Or free-action counterspell with Battlemagic Perception.

It's also fairly hilarious that everyone here seems to assume the party wins initiative. Spoiler: They won't unless the DM is sandbagging hard.
Level 18 wizard is also immune to surprise because Foresight. And flat footed. So there's really nothing stopping him from going first no matter what.

He's also not going to sleep unprotected. Let's be realistic here, there's tons of spells for precisely that on the wizard list. You assume he isn't using at least a few?


There's nothing the party can realistically do, even if the DM only uses core spells and the wizard has no feats.
He'd have to play him beyond retarded to even give them a chance.

This is either a case of DM fiat or a TPK waiting to happen.

[Sagetim]

Oh, right...hire an angry mob and have them go ahead of you if you can. If he has to kill his way through a bunch of commoners, it's still resources he has to expend that he then cannot use against you. Now, this also means that he's potentially leaving a lot of corpses littered around and may use animate dead to surround you, but two can play at that game (or the cleric can turn-destroy them, because this guy probably doesn't have corpse crafter or any of it's feat chain).

[Rerednaw]

So is this "No matter how subtle the wizard, a dagger in the guts will seriously cramp his style."
Or
"Meddle not in the affairs of wizards...for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

Seriously this is obviously a DM fiat situation. Either "rocks fall and you die" or a Mary Sue plotline.

For our morbid curiousity if you wish to partake and share feel free to do so. Your support group...*cough cough* I mean this forum will be here when you get back.

[animewatcha]

Can always summon Pazuzu. Bonus points if a paladin does it.

[Inevitability]

Can always summon Pazuzu. Bonus points if a paladin does it.

Wish for a Sphere of Annihilation (within the limits of the spell). Specify that it should appear in the space currently occupied by the wizard.

[Xaragos]

Like I said THIS:

Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp.

With a dose of silence, antimagic field, dimensional anchor, darkness with party prepped ebon eyes.....If you can get the element of surprise you are golden. Disabled...AKA stunned for 5d4 rounds should do the trick

[The_Jette]

Druids don't even get AMF. And clerics don't get AMF until level 15 unless they have the Magic or Protection domain, and even then they only get it at level 11.

And a level 18 wizard still has a higher BAB and more hp than a level 9 cleric or druid in AMF.
Assuming he doesn't just immediate-action teleport out and fry you. Or free-action counterspell with Battlemagic Perception.

It's also fairly hilarious that everyone here seems to assume the party wins initiative. Spoiler: They won't unless the DM is sandbagging hard.
Level 18 wizard is also immune to surprise because Foresight. And flat footed. So there's really nothing stopping him from going first no matter what.

He's also not going to sleep unprotected. Let's be realistic here, there's tons of spells for precisely that on the wizard list. You assume he isn't using at least a few?


There's nothing the party can realistically do, even if the DM only uses core spells and the wizard has no feats.
He'd have to play him beyond retarded to even give them a chance.

This is either a case of DM fiat or a TPK waiting to happen.

This is a situation where you're assuming the Wizard has protections that he may not have. Battlemagic Perception? Lasts 10min/level. Sure, that's 3 hours of protection, but not all day. And, yeah, you can make it permanent, but that's a waste? Why is it a waste? Because it's active only until you counter a spell, at which point the duration ends. Foresight? Also 10min/level. Again, that's only 3 hours, meaning the rest of the time they can be surprised. If you're adventuring, that's all the time in the world. If you're spending your time trying to figure out how to attune yourself to a MacGuffin, though, it's just not enough time to count for anything.
Sure, the Wizard is going to have a higher BAB than the party Druid. But, chances are, they'll have similar hp, since the Wizard has twice the number of hd, but one that is half the size. And, assuming he has a high Con is silly, since he's still a Wizard. If the DM decided to just randomly throw extra stat points his way, then that's on the DM. But, Wish takes up a LOT of resources to use, even for a high level character. The fact is, the party has just as good a chance of coming out of this victorious as they have of getting wiped, and it all depends on what tactics they use going in. They have some advantages of their own: they know when they're going to attack, and the Wizard doesn't. They can focus entirely on the Wizard, whereas the Wizard is focusing on the MacGuffin. They have time to get into position and use party tactics the Wizard can't without summoning things first. They have more action superiority. If they can finish the fight quickly, which should be possible (since at max a Wizard has 72 +18*Con hp), they have a chance of winning. The longer the battle draws out, the greater their chance of losing.

[noob]

What is going to happen is that the opponent wizard is going to go in a rope trick and then cast mordenkainen manor from within the rope trick when it goes near the end then while in the mordenkainen manor he is safe because the entry is in an extra-dimensional space who stopped existing then the wizard finish using his mac guffin from the safety of his mordenkainen manor and then he have won and planeshift where he wants to be.(or if that above trick does not works he can use a different trick to be inaccessible)
Going from the principle there will be a way to encounter the wizard before he finish his business with the mac guffin is straight weird.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is a situation where you're assuming the Wizard has protections that he may not have. Battlemagic Perception? Lasts 10min/level. Sure, that's 3 hours of protection, but not all day. And, yeah, you can make it permanent, but that's a waste? Why is it a waste? Because it's active only until you counter a spell, at which point the duration ends. Foresight? Also 10min/level. Again, that's only 3 hours, meaning the rest of the time they can be surprised. If you're adventuring, that's all the time in the world. If you're spending your time trying to figure out how to attune yourself to a MacGuffin, though, it's just not enough time to count for anything.
Sure, the Wizard is going to have a higher BAB than the party Druid. But, chances are, they'll have similar hp, since the Wizard has twice the number of hd, but one that is half the size. And, assuming he has a high Con is silly, since he's still a Wizard. If the DM decided to just randomly throw extra stat points his way, then that's on the DM. But, Wish takes up a LOT of resources to use, even for a high level character. The fact is, the party has just as good a chance of coming out of this victorious as they have of getting wiped, and it all depends on what tactics they use going in. They have some advantages of their own: they know when they're going to attack, and the Wizard doesn't. They can focus entirely on the Wizard, whereas the Wizard is focusing on the MacGuffin. They have time to get into position and use party tactics the Wizard can't without summoning things first. They have more action superiority. If they can finish the fight quickly, which should be possible (since at max a Wizard has 72 +18*Con hp), they have a chance of winning. The longer the battle draws out, the greater their chance of losing.

You're assuming that the wizard doesn't take any precautions against being attacked at all.
No alarm spells, no bound minions, no golems, no created undead, none of the countless spells that can be used to protect his home, no all day buffs, no magic items.
That's just not realistic. He's not going to sit in an empty, completely non-warded cottage waiting for the PCs to sneak up and gank him. You don't get to become a high level wizard by being that careless.

I'd also expect a level 18 character of any sort to at least wear a +4 Con item, if not +6. A +2 tome (or other inherent bonus) is also well within npc WBL and a good investment. It doesn't have to be +5.
And i don't know about the OPs DM, but when i build major NPCs i take at least a look at the List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Probably not for the expensive stuff, but the cheap options are not only fair game, they also make for good loot for the PCs if they win.

The problem is that you're assuming a naked, unbuffed wizard who is completely unprepared for attack, despite being in a position where he should expect being attacked.
I'm not even talking about metagaming specific counters. I'm talking about stuff every semi-competent high level caster does and gear he gets as a matter of SOP.

Okay, the DM may not be thinking things through. Maybe he is playing the BBEG as a naked, unbuffed, unprepared wizard.
But i doubt it. It makes no sense to play a BBEG that way. He could be that incompetent, but that's no basis to plan on.

[Aotrs Commander]

How big you party is makes a major difference. Eight PCs is a whole lot different to four.

Now, double the level means unless there wizard has a very suboptmal noncombat utility load-out he can stil wipe you easily. But numbers mayyers otherwise.

(In general, before I started usng other methods, I was quite secure in throwing +50% level enemies at my parties of 6-8 characters.)

The best option might be numbers and forcing him to make as many saves as possible in a short time, increasing the chance SOMETHING will work. If he can't wipe you all in one spell (which is the danger), and he is alone, you have all your actions to try and screw him over.

If you don't have enough characters, try and get volenteers/hiringlings etc and arm them with as many crappy mundane alchemical items you can scounge - assuming you cannot get access to any of the various magic items mentioned by folks above; roleplaying you are making your last stand and encouraging the populace to help to would be good, rather than having to buy it all (and if the DM will let you get away with it). Make abig heroic speech or something to inspire people. Summon as many creatures as you can before charging in.

If you survive that first spell, have everyone throw things at him from as many angles as you can for as long as possible. Chuck enough tanglefoot bags, alchemist's fire, acid vials, thunderstones etc etc and he'll eventually fail his saves. Whether that's enough is a good question, but that's probably your best bet.



If he's got back-up, of course, you are screwed (or this is a Cut Scene Loss and you were never supposed to win).

[The_Jette]

You're assuming that the wizard doesn't take any precautions against being attacked at all.
No alarm spells, no bound minions, no golems, no created undead, none of the countless spells that can be used to protect his home, no all day buffs, no magic items.
That's just not realistic. He's not going to sit in an empty, completely non-warded cottage waiting for the PCs to sneak up and gank him. You don't get to become a high level wizard by being that careless.

I'd also expect a level 18 character of any sort to at least wear a +4 Con item, if not +6. A +2 tome (or other inherent bonus) is also well within npc WBL and a good investment. It doesn't have to be +5.
And i don't know about the OPs DM, but when i build major NPCs i take at least a look at the List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Probably not for the expensive stuff, but the cheap options are not only fair game, they also make for good loot for the PCs if they win.

The problem is that you're assuming a naked, unbuffed wizard who is completely unprepared for attack, despite being in a position where he should expect being attacked.
I'm not even talking about metagaming specific counters. I'm talking about stuff every semi-competent high level caster does and gear he gets as a matter of SOP.

Okay, the DM may not be thinking things through. Maybe he is playing the BBEG as a naked, unbuffed, unprepared wizard.
But i doubt it. It makes no sense to play a BBEG that way. He could be that incompetent, but that's no basis to plan on.

I'm definitely not assuming the guy is completely naked, with no buffs whatsoever. However, that being said, I'm also not going through the books and trying to find every spell that could possibly get rid of everything that the party can do against the Wizard and saying he definitely is going to have that up? Why? Because not every Wizard has every spell prepared and ready for the possibility they'll need it. Sure, Batman could beat Superman if he's ready for it. But, if Supes decided to just fly in one day and pull Batman's head off at light speed, Batman would be dead. Now, what I AM assuming is that the party, being level 9, has enough forethought to be able to get around the Wizard's automated defenses? Detect magic will reveal the presence of the Alarm spell, which can be dispelled. It's not a concentration spell, so there's no reason why the Wizard should know automatically about it. Summoned Creatures only last so long, but assuming there's a permanent one, dispell works against them, too. Hired help can be snuck past, and maybe turned away from the Wizard with a good enough Diplomacy roll mid-battle. Or, they can be ignored to focus fire on the Wizard. Every challenge to the party has an answer, and that's the way it should be. If you create the Wizard to be unbeatable instead of a major challenge, then the party is going to die. But, if that's the situation, the party should just get a new DM.

[Rynjin]

I'm definitely not assuming the guy is completely naked, with no buffs whatsoever. However, that being said, I'm also not going through the books and trying to find every spell that could possibly get rid of everything that the party can do against the Wizard and saying he definitely is going to have that up? Why? Because not every Wizard has every spell prepared and ready for the possibility they'll need it. Sure, Batman could beat Superman if he's ready for it. But, if Supes decided to just fly in one day and pull Batman's head off at light speed, Batman would be dead. Now, what I AM assuming is that the party, being level 9, has enough forethought to be able to get around the Wizard's automated defenses? Detect magic will reveal the presence of the Alarm spell, which can be dispelled. It's not a concentration spell, so there's no reason why the Wizard should know automatically about it. Summoned Creatures only last so long, but assuming there's a permanent one, dispell works against them, too. Hired help can be snuck past, and maybe turned away from the Wizard with a good enough Diplomacy roll mid-battle. Or, they can be ignored to focus fire on the Wizard. Every challenge to the party has an answer, and that's the way it should be. If you create the Wizard to be unbeatable instead of a major challenge, then the party is going to die. But, if that's the situation, the party should just get a new DM.

The main issue is that due to the level gap the party has little reasonable recourse to even overcome most BASIC preparations a high level Wizard can pull out

Bound Outsiders (all of which have the potential to also be a higher CR than the party APL) are a very reasonable assumption for something an 18th level Wizard could have. These can be dealt with by Dismissal, potentially, or en masse by Banishment...but the OP's Wizard only has access to the former, not the latter. If they engage one, he can swiftly warn the Wizard to prepare for battle should t be necessary.

Is the Wizard sleeping inside a Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion? Too bad, you can't find him.

If you do engage him in combat, buffs will likely assure he is hard to touch or significantly hurt. Basic stuff like Mirror Image and Greater False Life will see to that. At best the OP's Wizard will be on constant Greater Dispel duty in the hope of rolling a 20 to get rid of the opposing Wizard's buffs (if the Wizard has a CL of 19 or higher, which is very possible, even a 20 won't cut it) so the Fighter can desperately try to grapple or harm him.

Meanwhile, the party's uphill battle is potentially a single spell away from ending in the opponent's favor. A simple Horrid Wilting has a reasonably high chance of ending most of the party in a single spell (DC 24-26 at least Fort save or take an average of 63 damage vs their likely max of 70-75 on the Fighter, SIGNIFICANTLY less for OP's Wizard, the Cleric, and the Rogue). And that's softball. You don't need to dumpster dive splats to come to the conclusion that the party is boned.

[Eldariel]

I'm definitely not assuming the guy is completely naked, with no buffs whatsoever. However, that being said, I'm also not going through the books and trying to find every spell that could possibly get rid of everything that the party can do against the Wizard and saying he definitely is going to have that up? Why? Because not every Wizard has every spell prepared and ready for the possibility they'll need it. Sure, Batman could beat Superman if he's ready for it. But, if Supes decided to just fly in one day and pull Batman's head off at light speed, Batman would be dead. Now, what I AM assuming is that the party, being level 9, has enough forethought to be able to get around the Wizard's automated defenses? Detect magic will reveal the presence of the Alarm spell, which can be dispelled. It's not a concentration spell, so there's no reason why the Wizard should know automatically about it. Summoned Creatures only last so long, but assuming there's a permanent one, dispell works against them, too. Hired help can be snuck past, and maybe turned away from the Wizard with a good enough Diplomacy roll mid-battle. Or, they can be ignored to focus fire on the Wizard. Every challenge to the party has an answer, and that's the way it should be. If you create the Wizard to be unbeatable instead of a major challenge, then the party is going to die. But, if that's the situation, the party should just get a new DM.

Dispelling someone with twice your caster level just isn't realistic. Nor is assuming the opponent has no minions and is entirely passive. The Wizard can even have Shapechange which alone gives you 3-6 hours of "This spell is more powerful than all but tier 1 classes" (all of this 1 free action away (www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9399.0) and then some) and of course, you have your Time Stop, Contingency, Greater Prying Eyes, whatever. Stuff that makes sneaking up on him practically impossible if you can locate him before he can locate you at all (unlikely) and of course, midcombat Diplomacy takes 1 minute or 10 turns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) without -10 to the check - not happening. You need to pray DM forgot Wizards have spells and can craft constructs and bind outsiders and animate dead and create simulacrums and so on, and then try to oneround him and never let him get a spell edgewise. Seems like a fool's errand.

[Pux]

Is hitting with a touch spell a possibility? Shivering touch might be a good opener from a cleric especially if they can empower it first.
This would require getting a cleric who has empowered shivering touch prepared for the day next to the wizard to make the touch attack before anything else goes wrong. Is also requires that he not be ready with any purely mental spells.
I admit the highest level character I have played was a level 12 wizard who spent a lot of time hitting people with a great sword. So not a ton of experience there.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is hitting with a touch spell a possibility? Shivering touch might be a good opener from a cleric especially if they can empower it first.
This would require getting a cleric who has empowered shivering touch prepared for the day next to the wizard to make the touch attack before anything else goes wrong. Is also requires that he not be ready with any purely mental spells.
I admit the highest level character I have played was a level 12 wizard who spent a lot of time hitting people with a great sword. So not a ton of experience there.

Sure, if the wizard has low touch AC (possible and not unlikely), no miss chance item (possible but less likely), low dex (also possible, but many wizards try to get at least a 12 or 14), you go first (unlikely), you roll above average for damage (pure luck) and he is both flat-footed and has no immediate action to counter it (like Greater Mirror Image, Celerity or just the Abrupt Jaunt ACF, also unlikely).

Needless to say that's a lot of ifs, and a lot of the things you're relying on are things a semi-well built wizard of that level should have covered.

You can try. It doesn't have a high chance of success, but it has a higher chance of working than most other options (which mostly come down to "hope he doesn't kill/disable the party with his first spell and rolls a 1 on a save sometime").

[Pux]

Well, a cleric has quite a bit they can do to boost that hit bonus. But honestly having absolutely no idea what the rest of the party consists of makes it a bit harder to come up with a viable plan. Did I miss a post with his party composition? They might not have a cleric.
Having the cleric teleported next to the wizard by someone else while buffed to hit with his readied action would be ideal. Possibly durring the 5 rounds he might still be under the effect of bardic music with a stolen item of true seeing.
At least if the wizard is flat footed he can't take immediate actions.
Since I did assume a cleric I may as well go all the way.
If assuming an ideal party sure he has a cleric and that cleric happens to have DMM maximize and empower. Now he has a good shot of getting through the wizards total dex.

[GiantFlyingHog]

Pray he can't see through invisibility for some reason, make as many party members invisible as possible, then try to slit his throat and cut off his hands, and pray that disables his casting ability.

[The_Jette]

So... any word on how the fight went?

[ATHATH]

If you still haven't fought the Wizard yet, may I recommend the Lahm's Finger Darts spell? It's basically Magic Missile, but with some DEX damage and some "recoil", so to speak, but it's 1st level and can be cast by any non-Good prepared spellcaster. Casting it twice (with, say, Quicken Spell or Twin Spell) should take most stuff that isn't immune to DEX damage down.

[Giovannie]

My Bad OP here, the DM is postponing **** since he hasn't set up the guys sheet yet, the game should be in 2 weeks time (Will this thread still be around? or should i just make a new one when it actually happens).

[Elysiume]

My Bad OP here, the DM is postponing **** since he hasn't set up the guys sheet yet, the game should be in 2 weeks time (Will this thread still be around? or should i just make a new one when it actually happens).I'm interested in learning how it turns out, so if you make a new thread, at least mention "level 18 Wizard" in the title so I know to check it.