Create (Greater) Undead: Getting them to work with you? Anything to crib from 3.5?

[Coidzor]

What undead that can be made by either spell would be most amenable to negotiations with their creator to work with them without having to be magically compelled to do so?

What undead can one make out of loyal minions with that spell which would retain the loyalty from the base creature?

What about undead that a minion wouldn't enjoy being that could serve as a good punishment but that would allow them to be of service and potentially earn their way back into the good graces of their master and be brought back to life?


It seems like Crawling Hands and Blast Shadows are something that the creator can control by default.

Bone Priests, being priests of an evil god, seem like they should be at least potentially amenable to working with a necromancer who serves the same god.

Edit: Since it seems that a lot of Pathfinder's undead are based upon a radically different paradigm despite Urgathoa being a thing, what alternate takes on undead that exist in both 3.5 and PF would be good to look at?

[Florian]

Hm.. Coidzor, you actually got into how PF/Golarion undead work?

[Coidzor]

Hm.. Coidzor, you actually got into how PF/Golarion undead work?

We're not playing in Golarion, but we are using Pathfinder rules for a villainous campaign. We're playing Way of the Wicked, and you don't really care about whether or not undead are TN or NE if you're worshipping Asmodeus and your only morality when it comes to killing most people is whether they're more useful alive or dead.

[Florian]

We're not playing in Golarion, but we are using Pathfinder rules for a villainous campaign. We're playing Way of the Wicked, and you don't really care about whether or not undead are TN or NE if you're worshipping Asmodeus and your only morality when it comes to killing most people is whether they're more useful alive or dead.

Well, Coidzor, you might actually know that they went deep into how undeath works with Golarion and you´ll find that reflected back with the generic PF ruleset. Amongst other things, this is why you don´t find formalized creation rules for a lot of undead, as they don´t make sense this way.

Now, it´s a very simple question of whether or not you and your gm accept the Golarion-specific basics and we could work from there.

Edit: Let me try to explain this: A lot of undead are "frozen in time", either at the means of their death or the feelings and loyalties they had at that time. Few are the undead that´re either completely mindless or have an actual free will. I´ve got the feeling that what you seek is the kind of undead that can´t directly be created by spells but rise under very certain circumstances.

[noob]

No what he said he wanted was to make undead created through create undead to work for him.
If the undead inherit the personality of the person you might just do a cult of undeath where you promise to reward people with undeath if they follow you and your orders.
If they do not it is more a matter of convincing newly created creature to work for you which might be done with money or other rewards.
If you are ready to spend some spells at creation for having an undead serve you definitively without spending up your undead control pool you can cast control undead then polymorph it in an humanoid then give it items who inflicts temporary negative levels when worn then hypnotize him in servitude then make him remove the negative items and dispel the control undead and he should work for you without needing to be controlled by spells or any of your resources.

[Coidzor]

That's a good point, are there any potential hooks for bargaining, control, or retention of all or part of the creature's personality or the capacity to grow as a person that were taken out of undead in Pathfinder that also existed in 3.5?


No what he said he wanted was to make undead created through create undead to work for him.
If the undead inherit the personality of the person you might just do a cult of undeath where you promise to reward people with undeath if they follow you and your orders.
If they do not it is more a matter of convincing newly created creature to work for you which might be done with money or other rewards.
If you are ready to spend some spells at creation for having an undead serve you definitively without spending up your undead control pool you can cast control undead then polymorph it in an humanoid then give it items who inflicts temporary negative levels when worn then hypnotize him in servitude then make him remove the negative items and dispel the control undead and he should work for you without needing to be controlled by spells or any of your resources.

There don't seem to be any spells that allow one to turn an undead creature temporarily into a living one short of Polymorph Any Object in Pathfinder.

Were you thinking of anything in particular beyond PAO, or some specific form of magical control like geas being employed or more along of a skill challenge and/or roleplaying out hypno-indoctrination?

Are there any particular rewards you would think to offer to those undead that aren't motivated by money? I know that some creatures like Pukwudgies enjoy eating babies, but I haven't seen anything like that for any of the Pathfinder undead that I've looked over.

[noob]

Well I forgot the line "living creature" in polymorph (even through it is not clear that undead are not living could you tell me where it is said other than common knowledge which does not necessarily apply to pathfinder) well you control the undead then he is willing for polymorph any object(or find a way to give him temporarily the power to use alter self) then once he is under polymorph any object as a living creature you can then give him items that reduce his levels then he is vulnerable to the spell hypnosis and by giving him multiple times through Hypnotism(the overpowered level 1 spell) the directive "obey all my orders" then the undead will be more favourable to obeying any of your orders at each cast then you can make him drop all his level lowering stuff and dispel the undead control spell and his metamorphosis and he should keep obeying you since hypnosis make him have a favourable attitude toward you for obeying orders you give him.
With Imbue with Spell Ability you can give a 5 hd or more undead the alter self ability and thus save up a pao(and just use one level 4 spell and a level 2 spell)

For finding rewards for pathfinder creatures ask the creature.
Else do give it a generic thing that boost their abilities almost everybody like to have bonuses.
Possibly the item works only if the undead do a service for you from time to time(for example if the undead do not help you for one week the magic item stops giving any bonus)

[Elysiume]

Well I forgot the line "living creature" in polymorph (even through it is not clear that undead are not living could you tell me where it is said other than common knowledge which does not necessarily apply to pathfinder)
Many spells affect "living creatures," which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell's area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected.
character limit

[Florian]

If the undead inherit the personality of the person you might just do a cult of undeath where you promise to reward people with undeath if they follow you and your orders.

Take a look at how the Whispering Way goes at it, them being the "inventors" of most free-willed undead. They train potential candidates as Agents of the Grave. The capstone here is the important thing: It allows retention of personality, free will and potentially even mental attributes after undead conversion (if killed by a creature that can spawn, it´s still uncontrolled and free willed).

[unseenmage]

In my undead thread there's a feat mentioned that allows mind affecting spells to affect undead.

It was also worked out in that thread that asking your undead to fail their saves against undead controlling magic works just fine as well.
Especially useful if you have a couple of spellcasting undead lieutenants whom can cast and command each other on your behalf.

Spellcasting minions could be turned into Liches and would likely retain their loyalties.
Ghoul and Vampiric transformations also likely allow loyalties to carry over.

Might just be more efficient to play a vampire lich and recruit the old fashioned way.

[noob]

Yes I forgot that is pathfinder so you can just add that metamagic(I believe there is a metamagic for enchanting oozes too) to hypnotize and then hypnotise low level intelligent undead to be your servitor definitively(and if you find a way to reduce the effective hd of high level undead without the polymorph phase you could make them your servitors too).
Hypnosis is great in that is needs no constant cost in spells for keeping people your servitor but they are that and not mind controlled people who will do absolutely everything for you.
he wants undead to work for him without being controlled for that so there is only two ways: actually speaking to them or using spells that change what they are.

[Coidzor]

It seems Spartoloi and Crawling Hands can be added to the list of creatures that can be created with Create (Greater) Undead that work for their creator.

Although the Crawling Hands seem more like they can basically be put somewhere so they're dormant until someone who doesn't know they're there does something to activate them or they're fed blood from a target.


In my undead thread there's a feat mentioned that allows mind affecting spells to affect undead.

It was also worked out in that thread that asking your undead to fail their saves against undead controlling magic works just fine as well.
Especially useful if you have a couple of spellcasting undead lieutenants whom can cast and command each other on your behalf.

Ahh, thank you, I missed that completely. :smallredface:


Spellcasting minions could be turned into Liches and would likely retain their loyalties.
Ghoul and Vampiric transformations also likely allow loyalties to carry over.

Might just be more efficient to play a vampire lich and recruit the old fashioned way.

Ghouls? Huh. I keep thinking that ghouls are normally amnesiacs when it comes to their former lives. :smallconfused::smallredface:

Wait, a Vampire can be a Lich? :smalleek::smallconfused:

That also reminds me that I can't seem to find a way to make a person into a vampire, whether one's self or a lieutenant or what have you. :smallsigh:

[noob]

You can turn someone in a vampire or a dread vampire if you have access to a dread vampire
Also you can make turn any creature in any kind of undead if you have access to the undead lord version of that kind of undead.
(So just make Trompe L’oeil of an undead lord of the right kind of undead and you access to that kind of undead)

[unseenmage]

...

Wait, a Vampire can be a Lich? :smalleek::smallconfused:
Hmm, guess not. Was remembering that a Worm That Walks (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary2/wormThatWalks.html) can become a Lich. My bad.



That also reminds me that I can't seem to find a way to make a person into a vampire, whether one's self or a lieutenant or what have you. :smallsigh:
The Vampire (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/vampire.html)'s Create Spawn ability can make one into a Vampire. Just find a Vampire (Gate on in if you must), Threnodic Spell (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Threnodic%20Spell) Dominate Person the thing until it fails a save, then make it turn you, then kill it. Add a squeeze of lemon and viola, undead with benefits.


Alternatively I homebrewed up a Create Superior Undead spell in that same thread because not being able to make higher order undead bugged me too. Copy-pasta-ed it below for ease of reference. Requires a trapped soul as a material component and PF has oodles and oodles of ways to trap and transfer souls.

Create Superior Undead
Source homebrew modified Create Undead
School necromancy [evil]; Level arcanist 9, cleric/oracle 9, shaman 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting
Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (a clay pot filled with grave dirt and a gem (usually onyx) worth at least 1,000 gp per HD of the undead to be created containing a trapped soul)
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one corpse
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
A much more potent spell than create undead, this evil spell allows you to infuse a dead body and a trapped soul with negative energy to create the most powerful sorts of undead: Ghosts, Graveknights, Liches, and Vampires. The type or types of undead you can create are based on your caster level, as shown on the table below.
Caster Level Undead Created
17th or lower Graveknight (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Graveknight)
18th Ghost (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/ghost.html)
19th Vampire (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Vampire) (any)
20th or higher Lich (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lich)
You may create less powerful undead than your level would allow if you choose. Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.
This spell must be cast at night.
Unlike Create Undead this spell also corrupts a trapped soul with negative energy and combines it with the target corpse creating an undead who retains the memories, skills, feats, and class abilities it had in life.

Liches created with this spell do not have phylacteries. They could create phylacteries for themselves after being created however as though they were replacing a destroyed phylactery.

[Tvtyrant]

Reduce their int to 0 and cast control undead on them. Sew a bunch of word activated glyphs into their bellies before you raise them and use them like weapon X soldiers, with a good chance of them going rogue.

[Coidzor]

Reduce their int to 0 and cast control undead on them. Sew a bunch of word activated glyphs into their bellies before you raise them and use them like weapon X soldiers, with a good chance of them going rogue.

How do you reduce their Int to 0?

The explosion idea might be of interest though, thank you.

[noob]

Polymorph any object(or imbue with spell them with alter self) them then drain them of their int with one of the undead you got.
However it will be catatonic because it have int 0 and not int _

[Segev]

In 3.5, there is the feat Undead Leadership. You can use that to justify some of your created undead being Followers, perhaps.