Lava damage?

[MrFahrenheit]

So for my next session, the party will enter an ancient red dragon's lair. I did some research, and, after finding the 3.5 draconomicon, was pleased to discover that a red dragon's lair was pretty simple (I'm making an assumption here that lair layout doesn't change drastically between editions, but it's better than trying to map out a CR 18-19 dungeon with a CR 24 boss).

Anyhow, the dungeon will basically be two levels. Party enters on the upper floor. Only way down is a hole, 160 feet in diameter and 200 feet long.

Dragon's lair:

These are all "O's" because each room is basically circular.

oOo
| (200 foot drop)
oOo

Upper floor: first little o is the entry chamber. Big letter O is the hole, with a twenty foot walkway around it. Second little o is a fake treasure hoard filled with mimics, poisoned fool's gold coins, and rigged with an alarm spell.

Lower floor: first little o is the dragon's sleeping chamber. Big letter O is the lava pit (with a twenty foot wide walkway on one side). Second little o is the dragon's actual hoard.

Anyhow, my question is this: should a PC fall into the lava, what would be appropriate damage per round? I'm thinking 6d6, with no save, but that's almost completely arbitrary: I want it to hurt bad, but not as bad as a fireball spell.

Also, if the party sets off the alarm trap in the fake hoard room, the dragon will attempt to hide in the lava, and cast prestidigitation to make it sound like she's snoring in her sleeping chamber. She can't breathe underwater, so normal suffocation rules apply to her, but since she's immune to fire, her tactic will be to attempt dragging the PCs into the lava. Only if they're all far enough away will she emerge from it completely.

The party is level 18, but it's an eight character party. On a flat plane, I have no doubt they could gank this thing.

[Lombra]

First thing: your name fits the thread perfectly, good job.

Second thing: dungeon hazards are described in the DMG, you could stat the lava pool like a mold, it deals fire damage, it counts as difficult terrain, once you escape the pool bits of lava keep hurting you unless you scrape them off or someone deals cold damage to them, and you could use inspiration from quicksands to determinate if and how the characters dip in it. I'd say that 5d10 + CON save to avoid a level of exhaustion could work, it's likely that if a character falls in it will stay there for at least two rounds.

[MrFahrenheit]

First thing: your name fits the thread perfectly, good job.
Haha, thanks. Hadn't realized that...


Second thing: dungeon hazards are described in the DMG, you could stat the lava pool like a mold, it deals fire damage, it counts as difficult terrain, once you escape the pool bits of lava keep hurting you unless you scrape them off or someone deals cold damage to them, and you could use inspiration from quicksands to determinate if and how the characters dip in it. I'd say that 5d10 + CON save to avoid a level of exhaustion could work, it's likely that if a character falls in it will stay there for at least two rounds.
Excellent suggestion there. This may be a keeper...

[NNescio]

So for my next session, the party will enter an ancient red dragon's lair. I did some research, and, after finding the 3.5 draconomicon, was pleased to discover that a red dragon's lair was pretty simple (I'm making an assumption here that lair layout doesn't change drastically between editions, but it's better than trying to map out a CR 18-19 dungeon with a CR 24 boss).

Anyhow, the dungeon will basically be two levels. Party enters on the upper floor. Only way down is a hole, 160 feet in diameter and 200 feet long.

Dragon's lair:

These are all "O's" because each room is basically circular.

oOo
| (200 foot drop)
oOo

Upper floor: first little o is the entry chamber. Big letter O is the hole, with a twenty foot walkway around it. Second little o is a fake treasure hoard filled with mimics, poisoned fool's gold coins, and rigged with an alarm spell.

Lower floor: first little o is the dragon's sleeping chamber. Big letter O is the lava pit (with a twenty foot wide walkway on one side). Second little o is the dragon's actual hoard.

Anyhow, my question is this: should a PC fall into the lava, what would be appropriate damage per round? I'm thinking 6d6, with no save, but that's almost completely arbitrary: I want it to hurt bad, but not as bad as a fireball spell.

In the immortal words of the great Gary Gygax, "If you fall into lava, you die, no save." (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf)

(Sidebar: If you fall into lava and you are immune to fire, you don't die.)

Mandatory reference aside, DMG page 249 lists out lava damage under the Improvising Damage table. It's 10d10 for "wading through" a lava stream, or 18d10 for "being submerged" in lava (possible Dex save to avoid falling into lava if it's a trap, but once you fall in, you don't get a save). This sounds about right.

6d6 is too weak for lava, really. Being covered in molten rock should be far more damaging than a Fireball.

Of course, lava is quite dense and viscous, so even if you fall into it you probably take damage as though you are wading through it instead of being submerged (for at least 10 rounds, methinks). It takes forever to sink in something that viscous.



Also, if the party sets off the alarm trap in the fake hoard room, the dragon will attempt to hide in the lava, and cast prestidigitation to make it sound like she's snoring in her sleeping chamber. She can't breathe underwater, so normal suffocation rules apply to her, but since she's immune to fire, her tactic will be to attempt dragging the PCs into the lava. Only if they're all far enough away will she emerge from it completely.

The party is level 18, but it's an eight character party. On a flat plane, I have no doubt they could gank this thing.

As mentioned, lava is quite dense and EXTREMELY viscous (~100 times more viscous than motor oil) (https://www.wired.com/2011/12/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-die-when-you-fall-into-lava/). It is impossible to swim through molten rock even if you are immune to fire. The dragon will have every orifice of her body clogged up by lava (which will later solidify), even assuming she has the strength to swim through it (no, 30 STR isn't enough).

Lava is not water.

Also, Prestidigitation only has a paltry range of 10 ft.

[MrFahrenheit]

In the immortal words of the great Gary Gygax, "If you fall into lava, you die, no save." (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf)

(Sidebar: If you fall into lava and you are immune to fire, you don't die.)

Mandatory reference aside, DMG page 249 lists out lava damage under the Improvising Damage table. It's 10d10 for "wading through" a lava stream, or 18d10 for "being submerged" in lava (possible Dex save to avoid falling into lava if it's a trap, but once you fall in, you don't get a save). This sounds about right.

6d6 is too weak for lava, really. Being covered in molten rock should be far more damaging than a Fireball.

Of course, lava is quite dense and viscous, so even if you fall into it you probably take damage as though you are wading through it instead of being submerged (for at least 10 rounds, methinks). It takes forever to sink in something that viscous.



As mentioned, lava is quite dense and EXTREMELY viscous (~100 times more viscous than motor oil) (https://www.wired.com/2011/12/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-die-when-you-fall-into-lava/). It is impossible to swim through molten rock even if you are immune to fire. The dragon will have every orifice of her body clogged up by lava (which will later solidify), even assuming she has the strength to swim through it (no, 30 STR isn't enough).

Lava is not water.

Also, Prestidigitation only has a paltry range of 10 ft.

Thank you! I knew it had to be in the DMG somewhere. I'm not worried so much about the pore-clogging effects, though (unless that's in the DMG too? I'm currently afb).

EDIT: I like the PDF in the one link. Funny stuff.

[Matticusrex]

If heat related things deal fire damage, why do cold related things do cold damage? Shouldn't they like deal frost damage to match fire damage?

[Foxhound438]

If heat related things deal fire damage, why do cold related things do cold damage? Shouldn't they like deal frost damage to match fire damage?

why would ammonia do acid damage when it's actually a base? why is there no basic damage?

[Mith]

Thank you! I knew it had to be in the DMG somewhere. I'm not worried so much about the pore-clogging effects, though (unless that's in the DMG too? I'm currently afb).

EDIT: I like the PDF in the one link. Funny stuff.

I would argue that the raw elemental power of the ancient red dragon allows them to innately heat the lava so hot that it runs like water like komatite lava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komatiite). Rule of Cool and all that. However the Dragon is uses Tremorsense when submerged, or some other means of pinpointing target to be able to attack from the lava. Otherwise it has to guess where it's target is or spend time to emerge from the lava and determine locations.

[MeeposFire]

Just note that due to its density submerging yourself in the lava would not be an easy feat. YOu would likely only make a small dent and sit on top. Though you would burst into flames.

[JenBurdoo]

IIRC, lava is hot enough that you can catch on fire without touching the stuff - a few inches or even feet, depending, and the air is still hot enough to combust you. Keep that in mind as an extra hazard. If the lava is bright enough, I imagine you could also have the equivalent of flash/sun-burn.

[McNinja]

IIRC, lava is hot enough that you can catch on fire without touching the stuff - a few inches or even feet, depending, and the air is still hot enough to combust you. Keep that in mind as an extra hazard. If the lava is bright enough, I imagine you could also have the equivalent of flash/sun-burn.
Exactly. Stick your face 4 inches away from a raging fire, that's about how you'd feel.



Anyhow, my question is this: should a PC fall into the lava, what would be appropriate damage per round? I'm thinking 6d6, with no save, but that's almost completely arbitrary: I want it to hurt bad, but not as bad as a fireball spell.

A fireball is hot, between 400 °C (750 °F) and 585 °C (1,100 °F). Upcasting it makes it even hotter.

Lava is twice as hot at around 1100 C or 2200 F. Wading through lava would be the same as taking a 9th level fireball to the face every round, no save.

[Jerrykhor]

I loled at the PDF. No mention of what happens if you are resistant to fire though. I don't think a Tiefling or Dragonborn should die instantly the moment they fall into lava.

[McNinja]

what happens if you are resistant to fire though
You die slower.

[TrinculoLives]

Exactly. Stick your face 4 inches away from a raging fire, that's about how you'd feel.


A fireball is hot, between 400 °C (750 °F) and 585 °C (1,100 °F). Upcasting it makes it even hotter.

Lava is twice as hot at around 1100 C or 2200 F. Wading through lava would be the same as taking a 9th level fireball to the face every round, no save.

I think we may be playing with different PHBs. :P

[McNinja]

I think we may be playing with different PHBs. :P
Nah, I'm just looking at it from a realistic perspective. A fireball is a ball of fire that explodes, so you're only in contact with the flame for a short amount of time (though long enough to cause damage and light things on fire). If you're on lava, you're being constantly exposed to intense heat that will melt your skin off.

[Contrast]

I think we may be playing with different PHBs. :P

Err...according to the DMG wading through lava is 10d10 damage (average 55), no save. A 9th level fireball is 14d6 (average 49).

So thats about right according to the actual rules :smallbiggrin:

[Beelzebubba]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]In the immortal words of the great Gary Gygax, "If you fall into lava, you die, no save." (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf)

I was waiting for this.

First post, even! :smallbiggrin: