Playing a Wizard the "right" way

[logic_error]

So start off, there is no "real" right way to play. D&D is a game and you are supposed to do what you want because it's roleplay, right? But since D&D is a group activity by playing in a haphazard way you might:

1) Destroy the opportunity for fun for others in the group
2) Destroy your opportunity to have fun by becoming ineffective in any area you aimed for.

So, let's compile here some advice, suggestions that you think are appropriate to maximise the effectiveness and overall fun for casters. I can imagine other cases for non-spell casters or even more nuanced discussion for other classes of course. But let us restrict ourselves to primary casters especially wizards for the moment and try this out.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Batman and God Wizard philosophy of play is a good one.

- Buffing your party to make them more effective.

- Debuffing your enemies to make them vulnerable.

- Using battlefield control spells to trap or impede foes.

Edit: If you meant roleplaying and not effective ways to act in combat... I generally like playing quiet unassuming casters who speak with actions and not words.

[Karl Aegis]

Use all your big spells for fairly trivial things while cackling like a madman just to show off how cool you are.

[JNAProductions]

Talk to your other players and DM. Ask them if you're playing well. That's probably the best advice I can give.

[Cosi]

Talk to your other players and DM. Ask them if you're playing well. That's probably the best advice I can give.

Pretty much this. Establish expectations, play within those expectations. There's nothing special about the Wizard. It's inappropriate to play a fully optimized Wizard/Incantatrix in a low magic GoT/LotR/Conan hybrid, but it's also inappropriate to play an Evil character in a campaign where those aren't allowed, or play a Cleric of Mystra in an Oriental Adventures campaign. Figure out what people want to do, then do that.

[flappeercraft]

Get infinite spell slots in some way or just a way to recover them whenever you want like Belt of the Dread Emperor+Regeneration/Fast healing and just use spells every moment and completely depend on your magic to do everything for you.

[Deadline]

So start off, there is no "real" right way to play. D&D is a game and you are supposed to do what you want because it's roleplay, right? But since D&D is a group activity by playing in a haphazard way you might:

1) Destroy the opportunity for fun for others in the group
2) Destroy your opportunity to have fun by becoming ineffective in any area you aimed for.

So, let's compile here some advice, suggestions that you think are appropriate to maximise the effectiveness and overall fun for casters. I can imagine other cases for non-spell casters or even more nuanced discussion for other classes of course. But let us restrict ourselves to primary casters especially wizards for the moment and try this out.

I know you touched on it briefly, but I do want to point out that the same two rules you list apply regardless of what class you are playing. They are by no means exclusive to casters. It's just that casters can more easily do #1, and mundanes can more easily do #2. But both are possible (an Ubercharger in a party of trapspringer rogue, healbot cleric, and fireball chucker would be an example of a mundane who does #1).

That being said, focusing your spellcasting efforts on buffing your party, battlefield control, and making each party member better in their intended role is the usual advice I'd give. Generally don't supersede the need for your companions, and don't be a jerk. Beyond that, have fun. I'd suggest avoiding spells like Planar Binding unless your GM and fellow players are on board with them, as they can be a huge shift in power (and do things like make the party fighter kind of redundant).

[Eleriel]

Well, our fellow giants already spoke most of the important stuff.

However, from experience i can say that a wizard that doesn't get some kind flair outside pure core, will lack from flexibility to keep up with minor encounters and still be useful.
Depending on the power level, it could be something as small as a reserve feat to send small fireballs at will.

It really comes out to the environment, the party and the DM.

Wizards must abide the Uncle Ben rule :D

[OldTrees1]

Talk with the other players(including the DM).
Talk with the DM about how to adjust the mechanics to fit what will work best for everyone involved.

[Florian]

3) Be clear on what your role in the party is. Others don´t want you to infringe on their chosen niche, so they should respect yours. That´s especially important for God Wizards and blasters.

4) Don´t have secrets, don´t switch focus around too often. It´s not cool to hold back on some spells and bring them out as a surprise, when aiming for builds or PrC that will radically alter capabilities, be up front that this will be going to happen at a certain point.

5) Act spell-shy. When lugging around spells that can duplicate class features, point out that a charge/scroll costs money, while the bard can talk all day or the rogue can always try again.

6) Avoid the "Wizard Game". Spells have creative uses, but it can bog down a session trying to explain how it works, what you´ll do, and so on. When you´re into Simulacra or Bindings, either prep anything before actual play or email/whatsapp the details with your gm during off-play.

[MHCD]

The Batman and God Wizard philosophy of play is a good one.

- Buffing your party to make them more effective.

- Debuffing your enemies to make them vulnerable.

- Using battlefield control spells to trap or impede foes.

Edit: If you meant roleplaying and not effective ways to act in combat... I generally like playing quiet unassuming casters who speak with actions and not words.

Amen

For those who are unaware of how effective this is both in- and out-of- game, let me state: this is very effective. In-game, the commonly cited example of the comparative damage outputs of casting fireball versus casting haste on the party beatstick demonstrates a powerful principle: the wizard spell list is full of force multipliers and spells that tip the scales in favor of your party in creative or less direct ways.

But an even cooler thing happens out-of-game when you play the character who has a nifty utility belt full of teamwork-tools (even when the "teamwork" aspect simply means something like casting polymorph on the scout or the beatstick so they can do their thing better instead of on yourself to take over their role): other players like your character. Now this doesn't require totally owning every encounter with your amazing spells, but even playing at lower or mid power levels, a focus on things like buffing, debuffing, and BFC can be all about making other people feel cool. The crusader's player is all the more eager to send her character to take a bullet for the wizard who provides liberal enlarge person spells. The rogue's player is all too happy to make sure a fair share of the loot and cheetos go to the player of a wizard who sets up sneak attacks for him via inflicting status conditions on enemies or providing summoned flanking buddies. The player whose less-mobile divine caster finds himself in a battlefield arranged optimally for buffing friends and smacking enemies will be more quick to lend an ear to the thoughts of the tactician, be it the player or the character. The ultimate truth is of course "as long as everyone is having fun, everyone is playing the "right" way", and experience has led me to believe that this playstyle is quite good for helping everyone have fun. Besides, you're a wizard. It's not like you have strictly limited spell options, so afford to be the facilitator while feeling free to get flashy or blasty now and then, too.

As far as roleplaying, wizards are like everyone else in that they can be whoever you want them to be, and any two wizards may not have anything alike. That said, the wizard is an intelligence-based arcane caster with a potential library of spells known. The source of a wizard's power is understanding concepts both fundamental and abstract, as a result of determined study. They may respect the discipline they see in others (be it the mystic monk or even a master thief dedicated to his lockpicking craft), or they may look down on all but fellow wizards, seeing all other pursuits as inane at best. They devour knowledge, whether out of hunger or as a means to the end of power, so they may respect others who demonstrate that they are learned, particularly in esoteric fields. They may also show little patience with those lacking such a reservoir of information, whether out of arrogance or simply being tired of having to wait for others to catch up in every conversation - on the other hand, they may be great teachers, eager to impart their libraries of data onto listening minds, particularly friends, as this sharing is a gift of love.

The adventuring wizard also has some serious practical applications for all that impressive intelligence. Depending on other aspects of the character (and the player), I find wizards (particularly ones of the batman and/or god variety) to be a natural leader or second-in-command type character. If the wizard's player has a greater system mastery or knowledge of game mechanics than the other players, it can be quite helpful for her to either officially or with a more subtle approach suggest plans for action out of combat and tactics in combat. Like casting the spells themselves, this is best when she uses her unique abilities to help everyone else be more successful with theirs. As a formal or informal right-hand-man, a wizard may make a fantastic foil to the leader character - the iconic paladin commander gets some brains to go with his brawn, cold logic to temper his fiery passion, and the ultimate adviser to the throne: one who has volumes of knowledge, can divine the future, and someone who, when she is called upon to accomplish a task or solve a problem in or out of combat, can be trusted to deal with the matter with maximum efficiency and without requiring micromanagement. You can play the lovable absent-minded professor, the serious strategist, the intriguing stoic, even a combination of the three or whatever, but remember when the "let's get dangerous" beat drops that your very words have more power those of anyone else. Make them count.

[Florian]

@MHCD:

Sorry, but no. For quite some time, BFC and raw damage go hand in hand in PF.

[souridealist]

Well, I like BHCD's suggestions.

Here's what not to ever, ever do: brag to the rest of the party about how you could replace them, and especially don't, when outvoted in terms of a course of action, say "Well, I (control the undead) (can fireball you all) (other), so I don't actually have to listen..."

1) Yes, you do, because we will kick you out of the party and also the house.
2) Even with a Ring of Sustenance you still have to sleep for at least two hours to regain those fancy spells of yours, and my lower-tier ass is the one watching your helpless sleeping form while you do that.

You'd think this would be obvious, but I've run into it multiple times.

I also want to add that it's really nice seeing a thread starting from the premise that the right way is the way that's the most fun for everybody. Especially with wizards.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, I like BHCD's suggestions.

Here's what not to ever, ever do: brag to the rest of the party about how you could replace them, and especially don't, when outvoted in terms of a course of action, say "Well, I (control the undead) (can fireball you all) (other), so I don't actually have to listen..."

I agree that being an arrogant jerk is rude. But...


2) Even with a Ring of Sustenance you still have to sleep for at least two hours to regain those fancy spells of yours, and my lower-tier ass is the one watching your helpless sleeping form while you do that.

You'd think this would be obvious, but I've run into it multiple times.

By 5th level, the Wizard can cast extended Rope Trick to create a safe place for the entire party to sleep.

[Particle_Man]

2) Even with a Ring of Sustenance you still have to sleep for at least two hours to regain those fancy spells of yours, and my lower-tier ass is the one watching your helpless sleeping form while you do that.



By 5th level, the Wizard can cast extended Rope Trick to create a safe place for the entire party to sleep.

I though souridealist meant that the mundanes inside the rope trick with the sleeping wizard can slit the wizard's throat during the two hours the wizard is asleep.

[MHCD]

@MHCD:

Sorry, but no. For quite some time, BFC and raw damage go hand in hand in PF.

I'm not very familiar with new Pathfinder spells, so I can't speak to that for PF - nor did I say, "don't do damage". If you read Treantmonk's guides (he's the one who coined the "god" terminology for that particular wizard playstyle), he explicitly favors "multiple threat" spells, as he defines below:



Multiple Threat: A spell that covers more than one of the above at a time is a multiple threat spell. For example - a spell that does damage as well as impede the enemies movement would be a double threat (BC + Blast), while a spell that does damage, impedes the movement of the enemy, gives them mechanical penalties, and gives your allies bonuses would be a Quadruple threat (BC + Blast + Debuff + Buff).


Right in core, you have the iconic example of Black Tentacles. This type of wizard should have that as a top pick. The point isn't avoiding hurting people. The point is that an overall goal of altering reality so that your party more easily achieves victory (which can definitely include hurting people, even through the casting of "flashy" or "blasty" spells) is very effective in terms of dealing with in-game challenges and also has out-of-game benefits in fostering camaraderie. Wizards can can do that through blowing stuff up, but they also have some slightly less direct and often more efficient means of doing that.

I apologize if that misunderstanding came from a lack of clarity on my end.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I though souridealist meant that the mundanes inside the rope trick with the sleeping wizard can slit the wizard's throat during the two hours the wizard is asleep.

Is that what Souridealist meant? I guess the Wizard could be a Necropolitan and not need sleep. But, if party members start turning on each other, things are going to quickly get ugly. That's not a desirable scenario for anyone.

[Florian]

@MHCD:

I know Treantmonks guide and also the reasoning behind it, which, incidentally, created the meme "Blasting is useless". Now PF as an edition developed in a very different direction than 3,5E did, an effect that becomes more pronounced with later source books. That´s not only an effect of spells being different, but also of classes being more specialized from an earlier level onward.
Other classes, namely Alchemist, Cleric and Witch are now more competent at handling the role of the "God Wizard", so you´ve got to adapt how that works now. It´s pretty easy to add condition riders to damaging spells, so a wizard is actually better off lugging a dazing fireball or nauseating fiery ray instead of a stinking cloud.

[souridealist]

Is that what Souridealist meant? I guess the Wizard could be a Necropolitan and not need sleep. But, if party members start turning on each other, things are going to quickly get ugly. That's not a desirable scenario for anyone.

In specific, yes, I meant that a wizard who starts saying 'you can't make me abide by party consensus because I'm more powerful than all of you' could get a greatsword to the squishy sleeping face. In general, though, I meant pretty much what you're saying there - that an adventuring party is a collaborative enterprise where everyone relies on each other and where consequently everyone is vulnerable to each other, and any party member who forgets that and gets arrogant will quickly regret it - in-universe as well as out.

I apologize for being the reason this thread got negative, by the way. These are really OOC problems that tend to manifest in certain IC ways, not problems with wizards as a whole. There's plenty of wizards and wizard-players who are perfectly friendly and considerate and who work well with the group - OP is proof of that, actually.

For a less negative answer to the original question, I do think that if you start off wanting to appreciate everyone's contributions and don't think you're pulling the whole group's weight, then there's only so wrong you can go.

[MHCD]

@MHCD:

I know Treantmonks guide and also the reasoning behind it, which, incidentally, created the meme "Blasting is useless". Now PF as an edition developed in a very different direction than 3,5E did, an effect that becomes more pronounced with later source books. That´s not only an effect of spells being different, but also of classes being more specialized from an earlier level onward.
Other classes, namely Alchemist, Cleric and Witch are now more competent at handling the role of the "God Wizard", so you´ve got to adapt how that works now. It´s pretty easy to add condition riders to damaging spells, so a wizard is actually better off lugging a dazing fireball or nauseating fiery ray instead of a stinking cloud.

The "blasting is useless" meme has actually been around far longer than that. Treantmonk was far from the first in 3.X to discuss wizards that way. In 2E, it only took one session to see that a level 1 mage contributed with Sleep orders of magnitude more than with Magic Missile or Burning Hands. Higher levels only compounded the difference, where even with a saving throw system that tipped the scales in favor of no-save damage over save-or suck debuffs, the most effective mages I played or played with were still ones that stacked buffs, summoned minions, and layered lower-level spells like Web and Stinking Cloud to forced eventual failed saves before throwing up a few self-buffs like Stoneskin and Mirror Image then casting Tenser's Transformation and beating face with the melee professionals. I'm sure the idea is even older than that, through.

But there's not a "wrong" way to do it, anyway, and I wouldn't want to come across as "blasting sucks". It's just a matter of preference in the end, and I personally am more likely to do more direct damage when playing a sorcerer, for example - if nothing else, because I find the class features lend more easily to different playstyles, and I like the way the tropes and archetypes associated with the powerful and flashy blaster go with one class and the batman-god-strategist go with the other.

In any case, multi-threat spells are fun (both types of spellslingers I mentioned will end up with Orb of Fire), and that's cool if Pathfinder has expanded on that front, especially if it means less dependence on metamagic for some of them.

Tying this back in to the original topic, the group's perceptions and expectations can matter quite a bit here. If other players are hoping for "support", they might be disappointed to see spells spent on hurting the bad guys (even if "the enemies are all dead" is the best "support" one can get). Alternatively, players expecting that magical support in the form of heavy artillery may find divinations, summons, and (de)buffs to be ineffective and cumbersome at best. Just like it's not wrong to play an intimidating and charging barbarian, but if everyone else thinks barbarians are supposed to be scouts and skirmishers, the different perceptions/expectations can cause contention. In those cases, your actual effectiveness, great or small, is irrelevant, since people are looking at the situation differently.

Short version:
Talk to people early so everyone can get on the same page. That should avoid most problems before they occur.

[Florian]

Talk to people early so everyone can get on the same page. That should avoid most problems before they occur.

It´s also important to talk with people about their prior experience with and outside of D&D/PF.
I´ve seen it quite a lot that people become fascinated with how things work with a video game character, a comic or movie or how things are handled in an MMO, which sets their expectations on how they want their character to "play and feel".

It rather _is_ annoying when a Wizard is build around some fancy signature moves that´re actually stupid when replicated with d20 rules (Data, I´m looking at you here), but the final character can´t function in a way that´s a) team-oriented and b) can fulfill the class expectations.

[Dagroth]

Wizards must abide the Uncle Ben rule :D

Is that the "wait until the water is boiling, then dump the rice in for 1 minute"? Or the "get killed in the first chapter so your words can haunt the characters forever"?

[Eleriel]

Is that the "wait until the water is boiling, then dump the rice in for 1 minute"? Or the "get killed in the first chapter so your words can haunt the characters forever"?

LOL

I meant for the old and boring "with great power comes..."
But the 1 minute rice rule is absolutely more important :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

[90,000]

Depends on the setting, the type of game, the other players and the DM.

D&D is collaborative. Collaborate.

[Dagroth]

LOL

I meant for the old and boring "with great power comes..."
But the 1 minute rice rule is absolutely more important :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

Oh, you mean the old "...the ability to torture and kill your enemies in a variety of creative and fun ways!"

[Mordaedil]

I know Treantmonks guide and also the reasoning behind it, which, incidentally, created the meme "Blasting is useless".
Technically, this was around since way before that.

Did you ever hear about the Leaping Wizards?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G5PjlCMlGw

Short of it is that the adventure described 3 level 1 wizards wielding quarterstaffs equipped with only magic missile spells face off against a level 1 party of OP clerics, a wizard, a thief and a fighter and would have stood no chance of killing any of them, so he just changed their spell layout to sleep, ray of enfeeblement and charm and all of a sudden the fight was a lot more lopsided as all the casters were knocked out, the fighter crippled and the thief turned against the fighter.

This was back in AD&D 2nd edition days.

[Beheld]

TFW The Logic Ninja is rolling in his (some other forum, because he's not dead so no grave) because Treantmonk's guide is considered the origin of blasting being useless.