dnd 3.5 monk advice (build) ?

[Rerednaw]

So any 3.5 including dragon/dungeon.
Level 9-10.

I have read a few guides and still need some help please:

Prefer straight (no cross class, or at most 1) monk.

I would prefer say a simple build that can mix it up with a decent chance of survival and damage output.

I hear the cheese is changeling warshaper...if that can be done as monk/warshaper please send me a reference. :)

Thanks!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Taking straight Monk is generally a bad idea. Do you have your heart set on playing a Monk? An unarmed Swordsage is better or a Psychic Warrior with the Tashalatora feat advances many Monk abilities like Flurry and unarmed strike damage.

If you really want to play a Monk with little to no multiclassing, see if you can get a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic). It gives you Improved Natural Attack for free and a Con damaging poison, if memory serves. A Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) helps too, as it lets you enchant you fists.

Edit: Monk's Belt is pretty good too.

[The_Jette]

So any 3.5 including dragon/dungeon.
Level 9-10.

I have read a few guides and still need some help please:

Prefer straight (no cross class, or at most 1) monk.

I would prefer say a simple build that can mix it up with a decent chance of survival and damage output.

I hear the cheese is changeling warshaper...if that can be done as monk/warshaper please send me a reference. :)

Thanks!

If you're going to do Warshaper, you can do a one level dip for immunity to stunning and critical hits, or a two level dip for a +4 to STR and CON. But, the natural weapons ability doesn't stack with a Monk's Unarmed Damage, so that wouldn't do as much good as you would think. Other than that, you'll also need to find out if your DM would allow you to continue to gain levels as a Monk after taking the Warshaper class, as it's not a special Monk prestige class.

[The_Jette]

Taking straight Monk is generally a bad idea. Do you have your heart set on playing a Monk? An unarmed Swordsage is better or a Psychic Warrior with the Tashalatora feat advances many Monk abilities like Flurry and unarmed strike damage.

If you really want to play a Monk with little to no multiclassing, see if you can get a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic). It gives you Improved Natural Attack for free and a Con damaging poison, if memory serves. A Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) helps too, as it lets you enchant you fists.

Edit: Monk's Belt is pretty good too.

Alright, I've gotta ask this question: Why is it that whenever someone comes to this forum saying they want to build a Monk and asking for help, the first thing people do is start telling them to not play a Monk? The point of his question is building a Monk, not just getting someone who punches hard.

[Deadline]

Alright, I've gotta ask this question: Why is it that whenever someone comes to this forum saying they want to build a Monk and asking for help, the first thing people do is start telling them to not play a Monk? The point of his question is building a Monk, not just getting someone who punches hard.

Because it isn't always obvious whether the person wants the monk as a class, or the monk as a concept? Because folks are trying to be as helpful as they can by listing all the options they can think of to bring about a given character concept? Because monks are easy to build poorly, and tend to under perform even in low-op games? There are lots of reasons for why this advice comes up. But the root of it is generally people trying to help. I suppose it's possible that we have a few folks here who suggest things out of malice, but I'd assume that if they were doing that, they'd suggest less helpful things.

[Rhyltran]

So any 3.5 including dragon/dungeon.
Level 9-10.

I have read a few guides and still need some help please:

Prefer straight (no cross class, or at most 1) monk.

I would prefer say a simple build that can mix it up with a decent chance of survival and damage output.

I hear the cheese is changeling warshaper...if that can be done as monk/warshaper please send me a reference. :)

Thanks!

Monk 6/Psionic fist 3. (You want to go into psionic fist at least 5.)

Feats of note Improved Natural Attack + Wild Talent
Magic items of note Ectoplasmic Fist/Monk's belt.

Later you want to get Warshaper. Get two levels of Warshaper. This will get you another size increase and morphic body.

So.. let's try..

Human Monk Feats:
1) Improved Grapple
1) Improved Initiative
1) Wild Talent
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Great Fortitude
6) Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack
9) Practiced Manifester

Just make sure you have at least 4psicraft to qualify for practiced manifester.

This is what I'd do with a level 9 build.

So by level 9-10 you can have monk's belt and two size modifiers already. You have higher initiative so you're more likely to go first you have improved grapple, improved trip, and combat reflexes. Great fortitude to further help your fortitude saves. You'll get powers and later psionic bonus feats. Later when you take warshaper you'll gain another size modifier and further bonuses from there.

[Darrin]

Alright, I've gotta ask this question: Why is it that whenever someone comes to this forum saying they want to build a Monk and asking for help, the first thing people do is start telling them to not play a Monk? The point of his question is building a Monk, not just getting someone who punches hard.

Largely because the monk is so badly designed that this is absolutely the best advice we can possibly provide. If your character concept is "hit people with your fists", then there are dozens of options out there that are much better and fulfilling this role than the actual monk class.

Other than that.. Wild Shape Monk 5 (Dragon #324) into Warshaper and then MoMF could be interesting. You don't have to be a changeling. Pick up a PLA from somewhere, take Metamorphic Transfer at 9th, maybe Frozen Wild Shape at 15th.

[Rhyltran]

Largely because the monk is so badly designed that this is absolutely the best advice we can possibly provide. If your character concept is "hit people with your fists", then there are dozens of options out there that are much better and fulfilling this role than the actual monk class.

Other than that.. Wild Shape Monk 5 (Dragon #324) into Warshaper and then MoMF could be interesting. You don't have to be a changeling. Pick up a PLA from somewhere, take Metamorphic Transfer at 9th, maybe Frozen Wild Shape at 15th.

This would be another good combo.

[The_Jette]

Largely because the monk is so badly designed that this is absolutely the best advice we can possibly provide. If your character concept is "hit people with your fists", then there are dozens of options out there that are much better and fulfilling this role than the actual monk class.

Other than that.. Wild Shape Monk 5 (Dragon #324) into Warshaper and then MoMF could be interesting. You don't have to be a changeling. Pick up a PLA from somewhere, take Metamorphic Transfer at 9th, maybe Frozen Wild Shape at 15th.

See, you say that the best advice you can offer is to not play the Monk, then offer up the idea of the shape changing Monk. That sounds like an interesting, and potentially fun, build for a Monk. So, why start off with what amounts to "Oh, you don't really wanna play a Monk. You're just fooling yourself"? When you offer up the suggestion of not playing, you're not actually helping someone who wants advice on playing.

[Dagroth]

The best reason to be a Changeling is because you get all the Warshaper benefits all the time... not just in Wild Shape or when Metamorphing or whatever.

Oh, and why would you think that Morphic Weapons doesn't work with Unarmed Strike? A Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered both a Natural Weapon and a Manufactured Weapon for purposes of spells and such. While it wouldn't give you extra attacks (because you're not making natural attacks), it would give you an effective size increase in damage. Plus, Morphic Reach is pretty cool.

2 Levels of some full BAB class... Warblade is good. Crusader meshes well. Paladin works well and gives some useful Wand access. Mystic Ranger is kick arse and can be used with the Ascetic Hunter Feat.

3 Levels of Monk (need Still Mind)

Begin mixing Psionic Fist & Warshaper as desired. I suggest 2 levels of Warshaper by level 9, just because +4 Str & +4 Con is pretty sweet.

That makes you Mystic Ranger-2/Monk-3/Warshaper-2/Psionic Fist-2 at level 9. 8 more levels of Psionic Fist will take you to level 17, you might throw in another level of Warshaper to get Morphic Reach. Finish out with 2 more levels of Mystic Ranger and all but your Warshaper Levels count for your Unarmed Strike damage (Easily fixed with Superior Unarmed Strike).

Tashalatora isn't important, but could help by reducing the Flurry penalty and giving you a few points of AC. Try to convince your DM that Tashalatora shouldn't require Monastic Training, since the Ascetic Feats don't require it.

Then try convincing your DM that Tashalatora should add your Monk level to your Manifester level.

If you get that far... try to convince your DM that Tashalatora & Ascetic Hunter should stack for determining you Manifester level... then you will only need Practiced Manifester to make up for your Warshaper levels. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Practiced Spellcaster for Mystic Ranger isn't really that important, since most low level Ranger spells are either swift/immediate/instant effects or automatically 24 hour effects... unless you get the Sword of the Arcane Order to add Wizard spells to your list. :smallamused:

[The_Jette]

The best reason to be a Changeling is because you get all the Warshaper benefits all the time... not just in Wild Shape or when Metamorphing or whatever.

Oh, and why would you think that Morphic Weapons doesn't work with Unarmed Strike? A Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered both a Natural Weapon and a Manufactured Weapon for purposes of spells and such. While it wouldn't give you extra attacks (because you're not making natural attacks), it would give you an effective size increase in damage. Plus, Morphic Reach is pretty cool.

2 Levels of some full BAB class... Warblade is good. Crusader meshes well. Paladin works well and gives some useful Wand access. Mystic Ranger is kick arse and can be used with the Ascetic Hunter Feat.

3 Levels of Monk (need Still Mind)

Begin mixing Psionic Fist & Warshaper as desired. I suggest 2 levels of Warshaper by level 9, just because +4 Str & +4 Con is pretty sweet.

That makes you Mystic Ranger-2/Monk-3/Warshaper-2/Psionic Fist-2 at level 9. 8 more levels of Psionic Fist will take you to level 17, you might throw in another level of Warshaper to get Morphic Reach. Finish out with 2 more levels of Mystic Ranger and all but your Warshaper Levels count for your Unarmed Strike damage (Easily fixed with Superior Unarmed Strike).

Tashalatora isn't important, but could help by reducing the Flurry penalty and giving you a few points of AC. Try to convince your DM that Tashalatora shouldn't require Monastic Training, since the Ascetic Feats don't require it.

Then try convincing your DM that Tashalatora should add your Monk level to your Manifester level.

If you get that far... try to convince your DM that Tashalatora & Ascetic Hunter should stack for determining you Manifester level... then you will only need Practiced Manifester to make up for your Warshaper levels. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Practiced Spellcaster for Mystic Ranger isn't really that important, since most low level Ranger spells are either swift/immediate/instant effects or automatically 24 hour effects... unless you get the Sword of the Arcane Order to add Wizard spells to your list. :smallamused:

When I said that the Morphic Weapons doesn't work with unarmed strike bonus, I meant that if the character changed shape and used the ability to gain natural weapons, they'd do the damage of the natural weapon of the character's size, per the ability. So, for a medium creature, you're looking at 1d6. I could see a DM ruling that you can use your unarmed strike at one size category larger, also per the ability stating that natural weapons that are already available to the base creature are treated as one size category higher. But, that's not exactly game breaking territory. It takes a level 20 Monk's unarmed attack damage from 2d10 to 4d6. It would be different if this were Pathfinder. There's a set of gloves that increases your size category by two when determining damage for unarmed strike. I can't remember what they're called, though. I wanna say it has Stone in the name...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pure monk with a one level dip? Okay...

Your key move is to take a level of Swordsage (Tome of Battle) at 9th. This will net you 6 maneuvers of up to 3rd level, and one stance (along with Weapon Focus in a number of things including Unarmed Strike, but that's incidental). One maneuver and one stance should be Shadow Hand, which will let you take the Shadow Blade feat (ToB), which will let you add your Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons... including unarmed strikes. That, along with the standard Weapon Finesse, significantly helps your MADness. You can replace the dip with two feats-- Martial Study (anything) and Martial Stance (Child of Shadow)-- but you'll probably have more fun nabbing a few extra maneuvers, and feats tend to be tighter than levels. Especially on this build.

(For your maneuver/stance choices, I'd recommend Shadow Jaunt (teleport 50ft through shadows) and Assassin's Stance (2d6 sneak attack) as your obligatory Shadow Hand choices, and then... there are plenty of good options, but Mountain Hammer (small bonus damage, ignore DR and hardness), Mighty Throw (sort of an Improved-Trip-based-off-Dex, but you get to toss them an extra 10ft), and Baffling Defense (make a Sense Motive check instead of AC) are all wonderful martial artist type moves.)

Now, for the rest of your MAD... take Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Magazine Compendium) and you can base your Monk stuff off Int (secondary skillmonkey, anyone), and Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Dragon 319) to base your health off Int as well. Now you only care about two stats, Dex and Int, which are probably two of the best to use.

The rest of the job is filling in ACFs to improve things, I think. Let's see...

Chaos Monk (Dragon 335) trades Flurry for "Flailing Strike," which randomizes how many extra attacks you get but on averages comes out well ahead of Flurry. You also get Erratic Advance (Daze a foe on a charge) in place of Purity of Body, and a few other minor changes.
Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil) trades Evasion for the ability to turn invisible for a round, as an Immediate action, once every 3 rounds. At 9th level you can also use Blink for (Wisdom, but would become Int with Kung-Fu Genius) rounds, again once as an immediate once every 3 rounds-- meaning constant Blink, which is nice.
Wall Walker (Dungeonscape) trades out Slow Fall for the ability to run up walls, which isn't terribly powerful but is cool. And isn't embarassing to have on your sheet.
The 7th level Dark Moon Monk sub level (Champions of Valor) trades Wholeness of Body for the ability to gain total concealment in shadows, which is great for the stealth we have going but isn't compatible with Chaos Monk. The 3rd level sub trades Still Mind for Darkvision, if you need it.


If you're willing to take a second level dip, take Cloistered Cleric 1 (Unearthed Arcana), ideally with the Travel and Planning Undeath domains (Undeath is in the Spell Compendium, among other places). Take Extra Turning from the Planning Undeath Domain, and trade Travel and Knowledge domains for their appropriate Devotion feats (Complete Champion). Buy a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium, 1000gp). Now you have 9+Cha uses of Turn Undead (10 if you have 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion)), which should be more than enough to use Travel Devotion in every fight, where 2 turn attempts buy you one minute of swift-action movement. Ta-da, now you can move-and-full attack without penalty. Knowledge Devotion is just icing on the cake, but you have a high Int, and Cloistered Cleric just gave you 6+Int skill points. Spend 6 of those to get one rank of each Knowledge skill that IDs monsters and 2 to pick up the Collector of Stories skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) for +5 on all checks to ID monsters, and you should be able to reliably give yourself +2/+3 attack and damage. And you get to use Cleric wands and scrolls, which is always nice. You can take the Magic domain instead of Undeath if you like, which gives up 4 Turn attempts/2 Travel Devotion uses, but lets you use Wizard stuff as well-- neatly replacing the Rogue's UMD.

Combining Shadow Blade, Kung-Fu Genius, and Faerie Mysteries Initiate (especially when you add on extra Shadow Hand maneuvers and Invisible Fist) sort of turns you into a light Rogue-- your MAD disappears, you become delightfully well-endowed with skill points and hit points, and you wind up extremely good at sneaking around. If you take the Cleric dip, your accuracy and mobility problems are also largely solved, leaving you a lean, mean, fighting machine.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Alright, I've gotta ask this question: Why is it that whenever someone comes to this forum saying they want to build a Monk and asking for help, the first thing people do is start telling them to not play a Monk? The point of his question is building a Monk, not just getting someone who punches hard.

Some of the other posters have already explained why someone might suggest other classes for a Monk-esque build. I did give some actual advice for playing a vanilla Monk (Fang Ring and Necklace of Natural Weapons).

Edit:


Other than that.. Wild Shape Monk 5 (Dragon #324) into Warshaper and then MoMF could be interesting. You don't have to be a changeling. Pick up a PLA from somewhere, take Metamorphic Transfer at 9th, maybe Frozen Wild Shape at 15th.

That sounds interesting. Then you could get some Wilding Clasps for your gear.

[Dagroth]

Two things...

1) Planning Domain doesn't give Extra Turning... it gives Extend Spell. You'll want Undeath Domain.

2) As I have been informed, Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) is slightly better than Kung Fu Genius, since it sets your Stunning Fist to work off Int as well... and gives your character some nice paperwork which gives them variable bonuses.

3) Okay, three things. If you're going to take Carmendine Monk, you might as well take 2 levels of Swordsage so you also get +Wis to AC and a second stance. Then you can get Fist of the Forest for +Con to AC.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two things...

1) Planning Domain doesn't give Extra Turning... it gives Extend Spell. You'll want Undeath Domain.
Whoop. My bad.


2) As I have been informed, Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) is slightly better than Kung Fu Genius, since it sets your Stunning Fist to work off Int as well... and gives your character some nice paperwork which gives them variable bonuses.
Depends. Carmendine Monk works on Stunning Fist and has that extra bonus, but Kung-Fu Genius explicitly works for all Monk abilities. That means things like Chaos Monk's Erratic Advance, Invisible Fist's Blink, and so on.


3) Okay, three things. If you're going to take Carmendine Monk, you might as well take 2 levels of Swordsage so you also get +Wis to AC and a second stance. Then you can get Fist of the Forest for +Con to AC.
But the whole purpose of the build was to reduce MAD. Taking one of the Int feats and Faerie Mysteries means you can dump Wis and Con.

[Dagroth]

But the whole purpose of the build was to reduce MAD. Taking one of the Int feats and Faerie Mysteries means you can dump Wis and Con.

Nobody dumps Con!

http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/khan.jpg

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nobody dumps Con!
Tough! Monks have all good saves and you're multiclassing a bit; your Fort will be fine.

[Rerednaw]

Hey folks thanks for advice! My friend wanted a monk and I tried to convince her that you will NOT be playing Kwai Chan Cane ...but figured it would be worth a try.

Maybe I can persuade them that he was really a barbarian...or a swordsage...or a warblade :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

An Unarmed Swordsage is usually the right answer, as it hits all the cool fantasy-martial-arts buttons without having to try too hard. Might be a bit on the complicated side for a new player, but it's not bad.

Another possibility for the wandering martial arts type is Scout-- Improved Unarmed Strike + Snap Kick is real nice for activating Skirmish.

[Dagroth]

Hey folks thanks for advice! My friend wanted a monk and I tried to convince her that you will NOT be playing Kwai Chan Cane ...but figured it would be worth a try.

Maybe I can persuade them that he was really a barbarian...or a swordsage...or a warblade :)

A Monk is Kwai Chan Cane... in a world where everyone else is an Expert or Commoner.

Once you start throwing magic & stuff in, you need magic & stuff of your own. This is why I suggested the Mystic Ranger/Monk/Psionic Fist/Warshaper build I did in my first post.

[Eldariel]

Alright, I've gotta ask this question: Why is it that whenever someone comes to this forum saying they want to build a Monk and asking for help, the first thing people do is start telling them to not play a Monk? The point of his question is building a Monk, not just getting someone who punches hard.

Class =/= Concept. You build for a character concept, not a class. In-game, an Unarmed Swordsage can be indistinguishable from a Monk. Classes aren't job descriptions, they are sets of abilities and you can freely mix'n'match with the multiclass system of 3.5 to build the character with the abilities you want (though if you're a caster, you're practically always better off advancing your casting than taking non-casting levels). Thus, a character can be a Monk without a single level in the Monk-class (the web comic on this very site makes the same point) - and a character with levels in Monk isn't necessary what you'd consider a "Monk" but perhaps a brawler, a survivalist, a warrior, a knight or anything of the sort. They just happen to have studied unarmed combat.

Thus, when someone says "I want to build a Monk", it's important to determine what the concept the player wants to play is and then look for the build best suited for the job. "A Monk" can be any number of things: Cleric 20 or Psychic Warrior 20 can certainly be a Monk in-game, as can a Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Horizon Walker multiclass or anything of the sort. Monk is a metagame construct: what's important is the in-game concept the player wants to realize and which tools are best suited for the task. For most concepts people would generally think the class "Monk" is good for, another class tends to fulfill the same concept more accurately or give the player powers more comparable with the others in the party and the opposition. Monk class is somewhat under the average power curve of the game.

[Karl Aegis]

Wood Elf Monk 9
Diety: Ehlonna

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Travel Devotion
Zen Archery

Min Stats:
Dex 13

Max Stats:
Wisdom
Strength

Alternate Class Features:
Raging Monk - Rage/Greater Rage
Holy Monk - Smite Evil, Aura of Courage, Turn Undead
Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy


Use a Composite Longbow with a strength rating two higher than you could use without whirling frenzy. You'll suffer the same penalty (-2) to your attack roll outside whirling frenzy as you would while whirling frenzy is active. Probably +6. 16 base, +2 item +4 raging = +6. You'll have 3 whirling frenzy uses per day. Make them count. When you get greater whirling frenzy make sure to get a better bow. Same for strength bonus items.

Pick up Deflect Arrows as your 2nd level Monk Bonus Feat. Use deflect arrows and improved evasion to stop most long range attacks from hitting you.

Use your enhancement bonus to speed and travel devotion (if you have to) to stay out of range of melee enemies. Remember that you can use your turn undead attempts to use travel devotion more often. I suggest having an even number of turn undead uses so you don't have extras laying around at the end of the day.

The longbow is Ehlonna's favored weapon and she has the Celerity domain as one of her domains for Travel Devotion fluff, so you have your fluff covered there.

If all you had was a +1 Composite Longbow (+6 Strength rating) your full attack routine probably would look like this:
+9/+9/+9/+4 (6 BAB +6 Wis -2 Whirling Frenzy -2 Rapid Shot +1 Weapon)
1d8+7

Not particularly good, but, hopefully, you can afford more than just a +1 weapon and 2 +2 stat items.

AC would look something like:
10 + 1 Natural + 1 Deflection + 1 Armor +1 Dex +1 AC Bonus + 6 Wis = 21 AC
Base + Amulet of Natural Armor +1 + Ring of Protection +1 + Bracers of Armor +1 + AC Bonus

At least you look something like the CR 9 Frost Giant in a shootout. Not bad for a monk.

[emeraldstreak]

So any 3.5 including dragon/dungeon.
Level 9-10.

I have read a few guides and still need some help please:

Prefer straight (no cross class, or at most 1) monk.

I would prefer say a simple build that can mix it up with a decent chance of survival and damage output.

I hear the cheese is changeling warshaper...if that can be done as monk/warshaper please send me a reference. :)

Thanks!

You can qualify for warshaper with the +1 template Quasilycanthrope and also get 10/silver DR. Alternatively, the Wild Monk can qualify by its own shapeshifting, but locks your alignment as LN which is a problem for some decent tricks.

There are several good ways to build for Monk 10, some with Decisive Strike/area control, some with ubercharging. For the latter, it's easiest to be Barbarian 1 (for pounce)/Chaos Monk, or ex-Barbarian 1 (for pounce, no rage)/Monk; if you are really opposed to (ex)-Barbarian there are mobility solutions, but more complex or restrictive to your other choices.

You can base your build on Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom (the latter usually with Saint). Invariably, all three will excessively boost for damage die size, as any competent Monk build does.

Mostly complete example for charger/Str (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161) (mind you, its campaign demanded some custom items). Speaking of items, at level 10 a monk is still starved for money and there are certain cheap RAW tricks, ie Necklace of Natural Weapons (SavageSpecies) with Sizing to boost unarmed strike damage size, then Scorpion Kama (MIC) to eliminate all the attack penalties Sizing incurred and to enchant further.

PS. From Dragon, you'd want Beast Strike. You might also want Troll-Blooded for higher survivability, or even go part-time Ikea Tarrasque with Shifter or full-time Ikea Tarrasque with Warforged (also make good Monks) into Juggernaut.