Eldritch Master?

[schreier]

The prestige class, in Dragon 280, confuses me slightly.

The class just requires some skills, the ability to cast arcane spells, and making a pact or bargain with a outer planes entity

The powers:
Spells Known: basically adds extra spells known from a spell list, if the caster casts "like a sorcerer" - so bard, sorcerer, knight of the weave, etc .... pretty straight forward. Useless to a wizard who qualifies

Detect Magic: At will - pretty straight forward

Combined Levels: Add eldritch master levels to the levels of any other arcane spell casting class he has when determining the level-based effects of spells (so basically +1 CL per level without adding spells known or spells per day). This seems clear - add +1CL per eldritch master level to any and all arcane spellcasting classes
--so a Wizard 5 / Beguiler 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Bard 1 / Eldritch Master 10 would have:
---- spells known as: Wizard 5, Beguiler 1, Sorcerer 1, Bard 1 + the bonus spells known (not sure if you could pick between Bard and Sorcerer, or would have to assign all bonuses to one class, or all classes get the bonus - I would lean towards assigning the bonuses to one class)
----caster levels as Wizard 15, Beguiler 11, Sorcerer 11, Bard 11
(Note - not advocating the build, just trying to understand how the rule works)

True Spell - gain a lvl 0, 1, and 2 supernatural spell per day

Metamagic Feats - 3 bonus metamagic feats (at lvls 3, 6, and 9)

Spell Boost - cast a spell one level higher than current highest level spell once per day (gained at 3, 6, and 9) -- not sure how this works. If you are a lvl 4 sorcerer/lvl 3 eldritch master, you can cast a lvl 3 spell 1/day clearly. What about when you gain 3 more levels (4 sorcerer/6 eldritch master) -- do you cast 2 lvl 3 spells, or do you get a 3 and 4 (since you already cast a 3 through the lvl 3 spell boost). What if you are in epic, and already cast lvl 9 spells when you get this? Do you gain a lvl 10 "spell" (heightened spell maybe?)

Spell Dilettante - "can choose one other character class whose spell list she can choose from when selecting new spells as she gains levels" -- first question is: does this apply to every arcane spellcasting class? A lvl 1 Wizard/ lvl 1 Beguiler - could both classes gain from the same ability? My gut says you designate a class (I guess rainbow servant has the same problem, but at least that class advances spellcaster levels which kind of links it to a class).

Powerful Presence/Knowing Stare/Mastered Name - pretty straight forward: bonus to skills, aura attack, gaze attack, and knowledge of someone saying your name.

The hard ones are really Spell Dilettante and Spell Boost - my best guess is spell dilettante just applies to one class (same class selected for the spells known bonus (if any), and that spell boost would count its ability against itself (so a wizard 20/eldritch master 10 would have spell boost bonus slots of 10, 11 and 12). The spell boost I am a lot less certain about, but don't know how else to handle it (well, other than 3 10th level slots)

A really interesting class that seems patently better than rainbow servant, since you can 1. pick the class you gain spells from, and 2. you gain CL - as well as detect magic, true spell, spell boost ... at least for 4 levels. You get the second class much faster (4 levels vs 10) as well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The class isn't written very well.

It's pretty clearly intended for Sorcerers and maybe Bards, because a big part of the class features apply only to spontaneous casters with a limited spell selection.
Only it sucks because it doesn't actually progress casting, just CL.
Spell Boost doesn't make up for not getting higher level slots otherwise, and access to another spell list isn't worth losing at least two full levels of spells.

It's would be horribly broken for wizards if it progressed casting.
A Wizard 5/Eldritch Master 10 only casts 3rd level spells normally, and he gets 1 spell/day each of 4th, 5th and 6th. Note that this is not a spell slot, so you don't get extra slots from a high ability score.

So it doesn't really matter if you have to choose a class for Spell Dilettante. You're losing too much to be worth it even on a single classed build.
Trying to fit it onto a theurge just turns you into something that looks more like True Necromancer than even a non-early-entry Mystic Theurge.

The only build i can see it being viable for is to finish of an Ur-Priest build, and that's more because of Ur-Priest being too powerful as opposed to any inherent brokenness from Eldritch Master.

[schreier]

Well - what about Beguiler or Warmage? Beguiler 6 / Eldritch Master 4 / Incantatrix 10 could be a good build - would not have lvl 9 spells, but would have lvl 20 CL, and Beguiler + any other class (could go sorcerer, or cleric, or wu-jen) as a fully spontaneous caster

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well - what about Beguiler or Warmage? Beguiler 6 / Eldritch Master 4 / Incantatrix 10 could be a good build - would not have lvl 9 spells, but would have lvl 20 CL, and Beguiler + any other class (could go sorcerer, or cleric, or wu-jen) as a fully spontaneous caster

The problem remains the same. You're a level 10 character with 3rd level spells and a single 4th level spell per day. And nothing else, because EM doesn't work for a skillmonkey or gish either.
It's the same problem theurges face. More low level spells don't make up for a lack of high level spells, and you don't even get more spells, just more versatility.

The Beguiler list is good enough to be better off not losing that casting. The Warmage might actually profit, but Warmages suck. He'll still suck, just in a different way.
There's other ways to increase your spell list. More limited, sure, but they don't make you cripple your casting.

Don't just look at it at level 20. Look at it at all levels. For the vast majority of the game, can you really say that those 4 levels of no casting progression provide enough value to be worth taking? Or that you wouldn't have been better off with more levels in your base class or another PrC?

[Anthrowhale]

This sounds like an ok class in epic levels as it provides marginally more than caster level.

[schreier]

In Epic, it would be great obviously since it adds CL to all arcane classes while granting other class spell lsits

It would also be incredibly powerful in gestalt, since it technically is not dual-progression

[schreier]

As a follow-up ... what classes would be worth adding? Focus on either gestalt or epic for the evaluation, since that is where the class would really shine I think.

Figure the main candidates would be sorcerer, wizard, and beguiler.

I think that Sorcerer and Wizard would want similar things. Cleric is attractive, as is Druid. Wu-Jen has some unique spells .... maybe Paladin even though it caps at 4 - there are a lot of unique spells (love favor of the martyr, especially for enchanting an item).

[ATHATH]

I normally use it to finish out Chameleon builds, since Chameleon doesn't have a spell slot progression beyond 10th level.

[Fizban]

There were a lot of caster prestige classes early on that had 1/2 or even zero casting progression, because they were designed with the early multiclassing idea that leaving your original class meant you left your original class and these fancy new powers were better than what you would have gotten. Eventually people realized that caster classes without casting didn't make sense and started giving full progression for free on top of the class abilities, while also noticing that top level spells were better than any class features, and yet they still kept on printing prestige classes combining full casting with better and better features.

[Rebel7284]

Here is a detailed analysis I did a while ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323862-Brainstorming-Eldrich-Master

[MHCD]

I normally use it to finish out Chameleon builds, since Chameleon doesn't have a spell slot progression beyond 10th level.

I have also used it for this purpose. It also plays very nicely with gestalt, since you get all that CL advancement and other boosts with no serious downside.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I normally use it to finish out Chameleon builds, since Chameleon doesn't have a spell slot progression beyond 10th level.

I don't see what you get out of this, seeing how Chameleon already gets access to all lists by default, doesn't have spells known like a sorcerer and even Spell Boost is iffy.
So you get at will Detect Magic and a bonus metamagic feat?

[MHCD]

I don't see what you get out of this, seeing how Chameleon already gets access to all lists by default, doesn't have spells known like a sorcerer and even Spell Boost is iffy.
So you get at will Detect Magic and a bonus metamagic feat?

The relevant class feature in this case is not Spell Dilettante, but Spell Boost:

Spell Boost: At 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, the eldritch master gains the ability to cast a spell one level higher than his current highest level spell once per day. The eldritch master also gains a single spell known for that level if he does not otherwise know any spells of that level.

This one doesn't expand your list; it expands your progression, letting you reach higher level spells. Eldritch master also plays well with some other ways of reaching higher level chameleon spellcasting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.msg459#msg459), and can even work with taking <10 levels in chameleon. You could even just go wizard 17 / EM 3 to trade some higher level slots for a 10th level slot. Probably not worth it that way, but that's what makes the class so great for full casters in epic levels or with gestalt.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The relevant class feature in this case is not Spell Dilettante, but Spell Boost:


This one doesn't expand your list; it expands your progression, letting you reach higher level spells. Eldritch master also plays well with some other ways of reaching higher level chameleon spellcasting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.msg459#msg459), and can even work with taking <10 levels in chameleon. You could even just go wizard 17 / EM 3 to trade some higher level slots for a 10th level slot. Probably not worth it that way, but that's what makes the class so great for full casters in epic levels or with gestalt.

I'm aware. I just think it's iffy because you don't actually have that spellcasting all the time.
It's not even "real" spellcasting, as in a "spellcasting" class feature that you could apply Spell Boost to.
And then there's the "can't use it to qualify" clause.

Other DMs may handle it differently, but i'd rule "highest spell level you can cast" as "whatever you can cast without factoring in Chameleon casting" as a natural extension of not being able to use it to qualify.
So with regard to Spell Boost your spells from Chameleon don't count towards "highest level you can cast". So you don't get 7th level or higher Chameleon spells from it.

[schreier]

If you took "Archivist" for Spell Dilletante, what spells would that grant? Just cleric, or all divine?

Archivist says:
"An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells. "

The class can only pick spells from the cleric list when leveling, but can scribe any divine spells.

This raises two levels of question in regards to the Archivist:
1. Would it just allow cleric, or all divine spells?
2. If all divine spells, is it all spells (since alternate source spell allows arcane to be memorized as divine)

So archivist, if chosen, could either allow:
Cleric
or
All divine
or
All arcane and divine

Thoughts?

[Rebel7284]

There is no Archivist spell list. They chose from other classes' spell lists.

[MHCD]

I'm aware. I just think it's iffy because you don't actually have that spellcasting all the time.
It's not even "real" spellcasting, as in a "spellcasting" class feature that you could apply Spell Boost to.
And then there's the "can't use it to qualify" clause.

Other DMs may handle it differently, but i'd rule "highest spell level you can cast" as "whatever you can cast without factoring in Chameleon casting" as a natural extension of not being able to use it to qualify.
So with regard to Spell Boost your spells from Chameleon don't count towards "highest level you can cast". So you don't get 7th level or higher Chameleon spells from it.

I don't think that would be at all an unreasonable ruling. The one time I used eldritch master to
advance" chameleon spellcasting, I still had existing arcane spellcasting to meet the PrC entry requirements. RAW is:


You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
...so there's nothing preventing someone who can qualify via other means from entering a PrC, and since eldritch master specifically does not advance your spellcasting, merely grant additional abilities, some of them still work no problem. Spell Boost improves upon your "current highest level spell", which seems to work pretty clearly by RAW. This may be comparable to the question: does a chameleon/blackguard get to stack sneak attack from blackguard and chameleon's mimic class feature?

On the other hand, Combined Levels adds your class level to "any other arcane spell casting class he has when determining the level-based effects of spells", so it looks like that one doesn't work at all with chameleon, as it isn't an "arcane spell casting class". At least if I'm interpreting all that correctly.

But again, I don't think it's unreasonable to rule either way on any of the chameleon / eldritch master interactions.