The Nagamaki

[VoxRationis]

I'm coming up with a setting where one of the countries uses a weapon similar to the Japanese nagamaki, at least for some of their elite guards. Are there stats in some official source for such a weapon? What are they? If there are not, what stats do you think would be appropriate for such a weapon? Would the greatsword be similar enough? (To put all cards on the table, I'm also homebrewing the combat system, so the exact stats won't be used in-game, but I would like to be able to make the comparisons between the nagamaki and other weapons, that I might put it in the right relative place in the new system.)

[Venger]

I'm coming up with a setting where one of the countries uses a weapon similar to the Japanese nagamaki, at least for some of their elite guards. Are there stats in some official source for such a weapon? What are they? If there are not, what stats do you think would be appropriate for such a weapon? Would the greatsword be similar enough? (To put all cards on the table, I'm also homebrewing the combat system, so the exact stats won't be used in-game, but I would like to be able to make the comparisons between the nagamaki and other weapons, that I might put it in the right relative place in the new system.)

yes page 72-73 of oriental adventures.

[zergling.exe]

There are rules in Savage Species for making weapons with extra long handles for additional hands to emulate the longer hilt, but otherwise a shortsword would fit the blade length. Longswords would be for the really big ones, which would be nearly 6ft total.

[ngilop]

I'm coming up with a setting where one of the countries uses a weapon similar to the Japanese nagamaki, at least for some of their elite guards. Are there stats in some official source for such a weapon? What are they? If there are not, what stats do you think would be appropriate for such a weapon? Would the greatsword be similar enough? (To put all cards on the table, I'm also homebrewing the combat system, so the exact stats won't be used in-game, but I would like to be able to make the comparisons between the nagamaki and other weapons, that I might put it in the right relative place in the new system.)

if memory serves me correctly isn't the nagamaki just a regular ol' katana with a extra long handle?

if it is what I am thinking of it was used as a anti-cavalry weapon

I would give it the same exact stats as a katana but with a nice anti-mounted bonus of some sort.

[Venger]

if memory serves me correctly isn't the nagamaki just a regular ol' katana with a extra long handle?

if it is what I am thinking of it was used as a anti-cavalry weapon

I would give it the same exact stats as a katana but with a nice anti-mounted bonus of some sort.

you are probably thinking of the naginata

[Deadline]

you are probably thinking of the naginata

No, I think he's got it right. The nagamaki is a polearm that is half katana blade, half handle. The Naginata is a polearm with a short blade on one end. If I understand the two correctly, the naginata has more handle, and less blade.

It's entirely possible that I've got those two turned around though.

[awa]

Nagamaki 2d4 x3 10 pounds no special rules
nagatana d10 x3 15 pounds reach, cant attack adjacent targets
both are martial

[zergling.exe]

No, I think he's got it right. The nagamaki is a polearm that is half katana blade, half handle. The Naginata is a polearm with a short blade on one end. If I understand the two correctly, the naginata has more handle, and less blade.

It's entirely possible that I've got those two turned around though.

Nagamaki are 2ft blade, 2ft handle. Naginata are 2ft blade, 4-5ft handle. Nagamaki aren't long enough to function as anti-cavalry like the naginata.

[Deadline]

Nagamaki are 2ft blade, 2ft handle. Naginata are 2ft blade, 4-5ft handle. Nagamaki aren't long enough to function as anti-cavalry like the naginata.

Huh. What the heck were they traditionally used for then? The 2ft. handle seems ... unwieldy. I thought they were both anti cavalry weapons.

[Starbuck_II]

Nagamaki are 2ft blade, 2ft handle. Naginata are 2ft blade, 4-5ft handle. Nagamaki aren't long enough to function as anti-cavalry like the naginata.

Actually, they are anti-calvary, but not as good as Nagininta.

[VoxRationis]

What the heck were they traditionally used for then?

That's a question I asked the Real-World Armor & Weapons thread. I got the answer "anti-cavalry." Now I would want longer reach than that if I were going against a mounted opponent, so I'm not quite sure what the intent was. It almost reminds me of the forward grips on zweihanders, but I don't think it developed under similar pressures as the zweihander.

[Dimers]

Naga maki are very difficult to make -- I mean, first you have to be able to slay a naga, and then preserve its flesh properly until it can be prepared by a chef qualified to separate the creature's natural poison. But you can make a whole lot of maki from a single naga. It's quite lucrative if you have the wherewithal.

I don't advise using naga maki as a weapon at all. Maybe spoiled rolls as poison ... ?

[Deadline]

That's a question I asked the Real-World Armor & Weapons thread. I got the answer "anti-cavalry." Now I would want longer reach than that if I were going against a mounted opponent, so I'm not quite sure what the intent was. It almost reminds me of the forward grips on zweihanders, but I don't think it developed under similar pressures as the zweihander.

Weird. I'd be keen to know what use your elite guards will put them to, if you don't mind sharing.


I don't advise using naga maki as a weapon at all. Maybe spoiled rolls as poison ... ?

Well, a rogue could put them to good use seeing as how they can sneak attack with improvised weapons. :smallbiggrin:

[ngilop]

that feeling you get when your memory on a subject you have not looked at (medieval Japanese weaponry) in over a decade still proves to be correct.


:)

[VoxRationis]

@Deadline: Ultimately, I'm including the weapon because it's cool-looking and I'm quite fond of the similarly-proportioned swords the elves use in the first part of the Lord of the Rings movie. Though I'm not sure of why the weapon was invented in Japan, in-universe, I'm inclined to say it developed as a compromise between half-swording, thrusting techniques and the desire to be able to make slashing attacks against unarmored foes. The culture using them has both a well-developed tradition of court intrigues and uses plate armor for military sorts. A weapon small enough to use indoors easily and capable of handling both armored and unarmored opponents would be useful for a guard—though "tradition" and "aesthetic" may be just as important in why they use it.

[Fizban]

That's a question I asked the Real-World Armor & Weapons thread. I got the answer "anti-cavalry." Now I would want longer reach than that if I were going against a mounted opponent, so I'm not quite sure what the intent was. It almost reminds me of the forward grips on zweihanders, but I don't think it developed under similar pressures as the zweihander.
Depends on what type of weapon your mounted opponent is using, but more reach is always better than less while having more blade would presumably make it easier to use if/when they're off the horse, a compromise between maximum reach of a naginata vs close-quarters katana. Fighting foot vs horse, I would expect the wide sweeps described to be more effective if you're closer to 1v1, since without a formation a single spear requires a lot more cooperation from your opponent to hit. Get under the horseman's first attack then just swing wide and mess up whatever you hit. I've no more knowledge than any other wiki-browser though.

DnD doesn't make any distinction other than reach, so you can fight a longspear with a dagger just as well as you can a sword or greatsword. The OA stats for several weapons make them flat underpowered, including the nagamaki (2d4 instead of 2d6 or 1d12) and even the naginata (+2gp over a 3.0 glaive for no reason).

I've changed the naginata stats to 1d10/18-20 for my games so there's a polearm with 18-20, which can be justified by the greater curve at the end of the blade (since in dnd curve=wide threat range while point= high multiplier). For the nagamaki, I'd call it a variant of the falchion: 2d4 means you never deal less than 2 and usually deal 5 before strength, enough to take out 1 HD infantry in a single hit very reliably, while the threat range gives you a better chance of landing the crit to take out an opponent in a better position quickly. (The only problem is the price, as falchions are quite expensive, but as a form of katana the nagamaki shouldn't be 8gp to begin with)

x3 crit doesn't make sense for the long blade, I'd bet whoever gave the OA version x3 was just told "shorter naginata" and whoever stated the naginata was just told "Japanese glaive," hence the stats, while the wiki breakdown (and even the picture in OA) clearly shows a "long hilted katana". In DnD, the weapons with x3/x4 crits are the types that were better for piercing plate, but that doesn't actually transfer over to dnd stats (in fact it's much harder to land the x3 crit on someone with more AC, these make more sense with armor as DR), while from what I understand Japan didn't have enough steel to field much in the way of full plate. It just doesn't make sense to use x3 on the Nagamaki.

Edit: ninja'd.

[VoxRationis]

Depends on what type of weapon your mounted opponent is using, but more reach is always better than less while having more blade would presumably make it easier to use if/when they're off the horse, a compromise between maximum reach of a naginata vs close-quarters katana. Fighting foot vs horse, I would expect the wide sweeps described to be more effective if you're closer to 1v1, since without a formation a single spear requires a lot more cooperation from your opponent to hit. Get under the horseman's first attack then just swing wide and mess up whatever you hit. I've no more knowledge than any other wiki-browser though.

DnD doesn't make any distinction other than reach, so you can fight a longspear with a dagger just as well as you can a sword or greatsword. The OA stats for several weapons make them flat underpowered, including the nagamaki (2d4 instead of 2d6 or 1d12) and even the naginata (+2gp over a 3.0 glaive for no reason).

I've changed the naginata stats to 1d10/18-20 for my games so there's a polearm with 18-20, which can be justified by the greater curve at the end of the blade (since in dnd curve=wide threat range while point= high multiplier). For the nagamaki, I'd call it a variant of the falchion: 2d4 means you never deal less than 2 and usually deal 5 before strength, enough to take out 1 HD infantry in a single hit very reliably, while the threat range gives you a better chance of landing the crit to take out an opponent in a better position quickly. (The only problem is the price, as falchions are quite expensive, but as a form of katana the nagamaki shouldn't be 8gp to begin with)

x3 crit doesn't make sense for the long blade, I'd bet whoever gave the OA version x3 was just told "shorter naginata" and whoever stated the naginata was just told "Japanese glaive," hence the stats, while the wiki breakdown (and even the picture in OA) clearly shows a "long hilted katana". In DnD, the weapons with x3/x4 crits are the types that were better for piercing plate, but that doesn't actually transfer over to dnd stats (in fact it's much harder to land the x3 crit on someone with more AC, these make more sense with armor as DR), while from what I understand Japan didn't have enough steel to field much in the way of full plate. It just doesn't make sense to use x3 on the Nagamaki.

Edit: ninja'd.

Yeah, the critical stats for weapons are sometimes a bit odd—particularly the difference between the criticals of bows and crossbows has always come across as nonsensical to me.

[Deadline]

@Deadline: Ultimately, I'm including the weapon because it's cool-looking and I'm quite fond of the similarly-proportioned swords the elves use in the first part of the Lord of the Rings movie. Though I'm not sure of why the weapon was invented in Japan, in-universe, I'm inclined to say it developed as a compromise between half-swording, thrusting techniques and the desire to be able to make slashing attacks against unarmored foes. The culture using them has both a well-developed tradition of court intrigues and uses plate armor for military sorts. A weapon small enough to use indoors easily and capable of handling both armored and unarmored opponents would be useful for a guard—though "tradition" and "aesthetic" may be just as important in why they use it.

That's pretty neat. I remember thinking about those same elven swords when the question came up, but didn't want to muddy the waters further by using them as an example in case I was painfully wrong about the distinction between the naginata and nagamaki. :smallredface:

That's some pretty awesome imagery as well. And yeah, a weapon that "looks dangerous" sounds like it can really be an asset for a guard. If you are looking for stats, you might consider re-purposing the Elven Courtblade from Races of the wild (essentially a finessable Greatsword, 1d10, 18-20/x2 crit range).