Is there a way to steal a "class ability" for the purpose of a feat?

[SangoProduction]

OK. So, I have a Dvati. I found the Superior Flanking feat in Dragon Magazines (343). Getting a +6 when flanking seems pretty juicy, even if we're effectively losing the flanking bonus Dvati naturally get (for themselves). Problem is... it requires having the Improved Flanking class feature... which comes from 8 levels of Swashbuckler. Gasp.

Now. Is there anyway to basically tell that prerequisite to screw off without DM intervention? I don't think I could fit 8 levels of Swashbuckler even in a Swashbuckler build. (And then there's the deal where the bloody feat wouldn't only be netting me a +2 net bonus, since it doesn't stack with Improved Flanking.)

EDIT: fixed the references and names and what have you. Also. I misread that. Superior Flanking doesn't stack with Improved Flanking, but it doesn't say that you can't benefit from both parts of its flanking bonus, netting a +9 to attack if you flank for yourself.

I don't think it would work for actually stacking Superior Flanking between characters, since you can't gain the duplicate effects from the same source (being the feat). So that's rather cool...if you already had 8 levels of Swashbuckler...somehow.

[ryu]

OK. So, I have a Dvati. I found the Greater(?) Flanking feat in one of the Dragon Magazines (342?? around that area). Getting a +6 when flanking seems pretty juicy, even if we're effectively losing the flanking bonus Dvati naturally get (for themselves). Problem is... it requires having the Improved Flanking class feature... which comes from 8 levels of Swashbuckler. Gasp.

Now. Is there anyway to basically tell that prerequisite to screw off without DM intervention? I don't think I could fit 8 levels of Swashbuckler even in a Swashbuckler build.

Illithid Savant would work. Pretty heavy on the shenanigans though. Likely heavier than you're willing to go.

[SangoProduction]

Illithid Savant would work. Pretty heavy on the shenanigans though. Likely heavier than you're willing to go.

Yeah, that's a bit too near to the event horizon for me. lol.

[Pleh]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php

Says racial substitution level for Rilkan Rogue (rogues can actually benefit from flanking).

[Big Fau]

Well, if its a Swashbuckler ability you can always use Daring Outlaw to stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack, thus making the class actually useful.

[Pleh]

Well, if its a Swashbuckler ability you can always use Daring Outlaw to stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack, thus making the class actually useful.

Problem with that is that it still requires 8 levels of swashbuckler, 4 of which are so bad as to be effectively dead levels.

Problem with my answer was that it may be hard to be both Dvati and Rilkan races at once to gain both advantages, but since people were talking about stealing the class ability... I figured stealing a level 1 class feature might be easier than stealing a level 8 class feature.

[Darrin]

Would the Spirit Wolf Totem (Complete Champion) work? Same effect, different name.

[SangoProduction]

Problem with that is that it still requires 8 levels of swashbuckler, 4 of which are so bad as to be effectively dead levels.

Problem with my answer was that it may be hard to be both Dvati and Rilkan races at once to gain both advantages, but since people were talking about stealing the class ability... I figured stealing a level 1 class feature might be easier than stealing a level 8 class feature.

where is the rilkan rogue sub levels?


Would the Spirit Wolf Totem (Complete Champion) work? Same effect, different name.

by RAW? No it would not work. It's not the same name as what it requires. But it would be a fairly reasonable houserule.
The Great Teamwork feat from Oriental Adventures also does the same effect, with the same wording as the Improved Flanking class ability.

Also. Found some Pathfinder feats: Outflank and Improved Outflank. Which moves the flanking bonus to +6 for 2 feats, but you also . Basically 2 conditional Weapon Focus, but if the DM doesn't allow both parts of the Improved Flanking to work for you, then...well, it's a second option. It doesn't grant you this bonus when others don't have Improved Outflank, but you can grant AoOs on crit, which makes for a rather impressive combo possibility for Crit fishers, especially with Paired Opportunists.

[Pleh]

where is the rilkan rogue sub levels?

I'm AFB, but google seems to think it's MoI pg 47.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

where is the rilkan rogue sub levels?


Magic of Incarnum. Page 47. You get improved flanking at first level.

It sounds like you really have your heart set on playing a Dvati, though.
Is there away to count as a member of a different race for purposes of qualifying for racial substitution levels?

[Pleh]

Is there away to count as a member of a different race for purposes of qualifying for racial substitution levels?

A quick shuffle with google fu says...

Yes, if you're open to 3pp.

Old Blood is 3.0 3pp feat that lets you count as another race for race prerequisites.

Question is how far from core do we want to roam?

[SangoProduction]

A quick shuffle with google fu says...

Yes, if you're open to 3pp.

Old Blood is 3.0 3pp feat that lets you count as another race for race prerequisites.

Question is how far from core do we want to roam?

Anything that's officially printed. 3pp is a low value source, but could work.

[SangoProduction]

OK. DM is letting Great Teamwork work for the prerequisite, but I can't stack both parts of the feat. So that's +3 when flanking over the normal dvati flanking for 2 feats, with a bit of extra flexibility, and an extra +1 for those flanking with you who don't have these feats, so maybe SOMEONE would actually want to get in and help.

So, that's kinda cool. Now, the question is: For a spellthief/sorcerer Dvati, with this setup, is it more worth to take Spirit Lion Totem (for pounce), or Spirit Wolf Totem (for yet more flanking bonuses). [I'm wanting Whirling Frenzy anyway.] I could take Travel Devotion....but that starts seeming like I would start becoming quite feat starved, with the flanking feats, spellthief/sorcerer dual progression feat, and Arcane Strike already, and of course the whole "not a human" thing.

Then again, I could just take Travel Devotion, and the Wolf Totem, then free up a feat slot, and only miss out on +1 to attack (compared to taking Lion Totem), all while having added flexibility of just straight up moving faster, and it not being limited to a charge action, which some DMs are really...weird about.

I once had a DM that basically said you have to move directly at them, and you can't position to their side if you charge. (Because jousting was never a thing, obviously.) I also had more than one (although one of them was actually this same DM), who said you had to charge straight, along the sides of the squares, no diagonals.

EDIT: right. Flaws. I can have 2. So I guess I'm not really that feat starved. I guess I could go with Wolf Totem and Travel Devotion, and still take the flanking feats (total +5 over normal Dvati flank) and be alright, as long as I don't care too much about getting the dual progression early.

[The Viscount]

For what its worth a 19th level factotum can duplicate class abilities from the 15th level or lower of any base class.

Are you investing at all into the initiators if you're focusing on flanking? There are several flank-related maneuvers of interest.

[SangoProduction]

For what its worth a 19th level factotum can duplicate class abilities from the 15th level or lower of any base class.

Are you investing at all into the initiators if you're focusing on flanking? There are several flank-related maneuvers of interest.

I could. But a dvati would burn through twice as many maneuvers per round as a normal initiator, and I didn't find even the normal ones to last too incredibly long in a single fight.

Any in particular you are talking about?

[LordOfCain]

Warblades could have one body regular attack in order to regain maneuvers. That way you don't lose really any action economy, just can't use a maneuver.

[The Viscount]

For stances there's assassin's stance, island of blades, and tactics of the wolf.

For maneuvers there's sort of swarming assault.

Also just for completeness marshal has a minor aura that adds to damage rolls when flanking. If Dvaati could project two different auras that might make the class slightly more playable, even if you still can't stack the bonus.