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View Full Version : Clarification in case I dun goofed my necromancy.



Cyussu
2017-04-11, 11:04 PM
Making a Dread Necromancer (D&D 3.5, Heroes of Horrors, P.84~88) in a PF game, I can animate and control well over 200 HD of undead at current, and the game is fairly mobile. having my skeletons sitting around well out of reach won't work. The best I can figure is just stacking Portable Holes within each other, but another means (And one I can get to set up a desecrated shrine in) would be much much more preferred.

My original plan was to buy as many portable holes as I can after buying the remains of my base gear and the Onyx required to summon + extra, and wear the hole like a cape to send out 'My Pretties' to run out, smash themselves, explode, and deal AoE oriented damage as my 'basic' attack, since it's a standard action to command how my undead work in a specific manner.

As for Desecrate bonuses, I am not sure how to go about that if I am required to go the Portable Hole route for my undead, would I be able to desecrate an Portable Hole, go inside, and animate dead as I please, as long as Desecrate is active?

I have essentially 100,000gp to play with prior to buying Bracers of Armor, but after buying a +4 Cha headband. So if needed, I can just purchase 5 Portable Holes, sticking one at the end of each and not caring (This is based on what was explained to me by another player, DM not declining nor affirming the statement, and I never NEEDED a portable hole before so I am not entirely sure of it myself.)

Also, I am getting mixed information and google-fu is failing me; How many HD would a 1HD Bloodied Burning Skeleton cost for the sake of HD Cap on Animate & Control Undead?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2017-04-11, 11:24 PM
Let's say you have 40 medium skeletons, averaging 5 hd each. Have them all grapple each other, they're now all occupying the same 5-ft. square. Volume is irrelevant, it's how grappling works. Each one moves the grapple every round, none of the others resist. If they each have a 30-ft. land speed, moving at half speed they'll be moving 600 feet per round, or roughly 68 miles per hour. It's a super-dense 5-ft. diameter ball of bones that rolls at almost 70 mph and can disassemble into a small army of skeletal warriors.

OldTrees1
2017-04-11, 11:40 PM
Okay so you are concerned about logistics.

1) Pathfinder does not have any burning bloody skeletons. They have burning skeletons and bloody skeletons. Both of those cost double for the purpose of animate dead (and only animate dead costs double). I think Bloody Skeletons augmented with Corpse Crafter & Destructive Retribution feats is ideal for your concept (undead that explode and reform).

2) The "animated within the aura of an altar boosted desecration field" requires you animate them near an altar. Altars can be rather heavy (ask your DM for weight and dimensions) however you only need access when you are animating. Altars tend to be commonplace in civilized societies. Just wait until you are near one that you can cast desecration on. Perhaps you revere a goddess that has shrines/temples?

3)Portable Holes
I would never stick one extradimensional space into another extradimensional space. While RAW does not detail interactions for every combination, you run the risk that your DM would extrapolate that there should be interactions.

Although I would not stack the extradimensional spaces, nothing prevents you from carrying multiple.

4) Logistics
200HD sounds low for what a Dread Necromancer can do out of the box. However Dread Necromancers can control way too many undead for most campaigns. I suggest talking with your DM about how many undead you can use in combat before it starts bogging down the game. Then recognize that higher HD undead also have higher HD/space density. You can fit more HD in your portable hole cape if they are the largest size that can reasonable exit your cape.

Additionally you should consider making undead supply caches that you can quickly get to later. If your limited number of carried undead start being permanently destroyed (infrequent) or lost (also infrequent) then you can make the rare trip to a supply cache to stock back up.

Dagroth
2017-04-12, 02:17 AM
While I haven't really done much research on Portable Holes since my AD&D 2.0 days...

1) Putting one Portable Hole inside another used to not work. The second Hole would just not open up.

2) Putting a Portable Hole inside a Bag of Holding used to produce a Sphere of Annihilation. Don't think that still happens... but there are old-school DMs like me still around.

3) In order to "open", a Portable Hole used to require being laid down on a flat surface... not hanging on a wall or being worn like a cape. That being said, your idea would be cool... except the undead in the Hold are in an extra-dimensional space and can't hear you unless the Hole is open. If the Hole is open, you can't have the open side draped over your shoulders because your body would "fall in". If the open side were facing your back and the wind started blowing from behind you, you would "fall in".

Cool visual... extremely tough logistics.

Cyussu
2017-04-12, 11:55 AM
Couple things:
DM said Portable Hole stacking is fine, as they do not do what a Bag of Holding + Portable Hole does.

1HD is the max I am using. I need their HP at an absolute minimum to be able to kill themselves, literally.

I have read, regarding using both Bloodied & Burning, and nothing directly says I can NOT do that, they are more or less templates for the spell. DM has also ruled that they work together, but did not give me an HD usage effect when doing so.

Portable Holes don't care about weight, at all, and nothing says I can't, technically, go 5 Portable Holes deep, toss my corpses in, leave, let oxygen re-fill properly, re-enter, animate them, and whatnot. Only problem with that would be after animation of a few... dozen...

200HD was me low-balling it, I didn't wanna pull up his sheet at the time. I am very much aware they are capable of more, but I 'only' have a 24Cha after item at 12th level Dread Necro, this isn't the 1st time I've ran one, but it is the first time I have ran into the storage problem. (Last time I just had them derp about outside town with a "Run the perimeter, avoid combat" as their commands. Town was cool with it.)

Combat-wise, it was planned for them to simply be commanded, 2~4 at a time, to charge in and commit suicide, causing a 2d6 (half fire, half neg energy) explosion, not big, but AoE is AoE, Evasion negates, low af DC, (Oh no, Evasion, my only weakness! Bring in the Full-Caster portion for touch spells <.< )

DM is also 100% fine with the fact I can control well over 200~300 undead at a time, that isn't the issue with him

Buufreak
2017-04-12, 12:27 PM
Let's say you have 40 medium skeletons, averaging 5 hd each. Have them all grapple each other, they're now all occupying the same 5-ft. square. Volume is irrelevant, it's how grappling works. Each one moves the grapple every round, none of the others resist. If they each have a 30-ft. land speed, moving at half speed they'll be moving 600 feet per round, or roughly 68 miles per hour. It's a super-dense 5-ft. diameter ball of bones that rolls at almost 70 mph and can disassemble into a small army of skeletal warriors.

I read this and can only imagine the myr battlesphere... http://magiccards.info/c16/en/263.html

Vizzerdrix
2017-04-12, 01:23 PM
You may be better off getting one portable hole, using the magical paints (i forget their name atm) to expand the inside, and installing a ring gate to access your minions. You wouldnt have to worry about finding a 10 x10 flat surface all the time.

I think Arms and equipment guide has portable shrines.

A few high wis undead should be kept around for both spell stitching (evocation has a surprising amount of utility spells) and shapesand control just in case you need to change up your minions gear.

Cyussu
2017-04-12, 02:08 PM
You may be better off getting one portable hole, using the magical paints (i forget their name atm) to expand the inside, and installing a ring gate to access your minions. You wouldnt have to worry about finding a 10 x10 flat surface all the time.

I think Arms and equipment guide has portable shrines.

A few high wis undead should be kept around for both spell stitching (evocation has a surprising amount of utility spells) and shapesand control just in case you need to change up your minions gear.

I will look into the A&E 3.x guide on shrines

But the last bit, due to my level, I was going to keep a couple big bruisers, and use disguise to have them look like hulking bodyguards. I can't remember the book, but there's a super high str undead I could nab and still get a 20HD of it and it counts as 20HD. Hulking Blood something, can't remember ><