Scribe Scroll for other lists

[Barstro]

I believe RAW allows this, despite the fact that is seems wrong, but I want to make sure;

Sorcerer has Scribe Scroll
Sorcerer scribes a Cleric spell (+5 for not knowing the spell)
Someone uses UMD to use the scroll.

But I am concerned about the following language

The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
A scroll seems like a spell completion (but I haven't searched for the RAW definition.

Also;

SCRIBE SCROLL; You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
Is this one of those things like "creator has to be an elf" that is really just a +5 if he is not an elf (the legal use of "has" is so different than D20)

Thanks

[legomaster00156]

You cannot scribe a scroll without the spell involved. However, I believe you can have someone else provide the spell.

[Psyren]

You can use your feat(s) to make someone else's item(s) including scrolls. Not completely sure I understand the question but hopefully that answers it.

[The_Jette]

I believe RAW allows this, despite the fact that is seems wrong, but I want to make sure;

Sorcerer has Scribe Scroll
Sorcerer scribes a Cleric spell (+5 for not knowing the spell)
Someone uses UMD to use the scroll.

But I am concerned about the following language

A scroll seems like a spell completion (but I haven't searched for the RAW definition.

Also;

Is this one of those things like "creator has to be an elf" that is really just a +5 if he is not an elf (the legal use of "has" is so different than D20)

Thanks

Scrolls, wands, and potions can't have the DC increased by 5 to make one that you don't have access to the spell. Per RAW, you can only create scrolls, wands, and potions that duplicate spells that you, personally, know and can cast. It's made that way to prevent wizards from scribing cleric spells, or druids spells, just by increasing the DC. It makes sens to house rule it that if someone can cast the spell while you do the scribing you can still make a wand, or scroll, or whatever. But, by RAW, it's not allowed. The +5 to the creation DC was meant to cover magical arms and armor, rods, rings, wonderous items, etc. That way, if you really want a Cloak of Elvenkind, but you're not an elf, you can still make one. It's just harder for you to copy the magic of someone else. Honestly, it never made sense to me that you had to be a specific race in order to create a specific magic item. I mean, more than just Elves need to be sneaky. In game, it makes more sense to be a Halfling than an Elf, where creating magical sneakiness is concerned. Just my two bits...

[legomaster00156]

Don't forget staves, those also need to have the spells involved cast.

[Psyren]

Per RAW, you can only create scrolls, wands, and potions that duplicate spells that you, personally, know and can cast.

This is wrong:



Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

You must have access to the spell, but if you can get it from someone or something else, you do not need to be capable of casting it yourself. A Wizard can use their Scribe Scroll feat to help the Cleric make cleric scrolls just fine - the cleric simply needs to be present throughout the crafting process and provide the magic.

[Barstro]

The issue came up because there is a certain Cleric spell that the party wants to use, but no Cleric.

The suggestion was that the Sorcerer scribe a scroll (nobody around to provide the spell), and UMD.

It appears that this is NOT allowed. I'm pleased to hear that, since it makes sense.

I guess the party is out of luck unless it can purchase the spell or find a Cleric who is willing to help the Sorcerer scribe it. I suppose the Sorcerer could Craft Wondrous, but that's just a waste of gold for something that will get very little use.

[Psyren]

What level are they? There are lots of ways to get arcane access to certain cleric spells - Summon Monster, Planar Binding, Limited Wish...

[Florian]

@Barstro:

You´ve got to meet the basic requirements for creating potions, spell trigger or spell completion items in any way. That can be a Wizard scribing a scroll with a cleric providing the spell, and so on.
Now the spell craft check you cite concerns crafting weapons, armor or wondrous items, so non-trigger or completion items.

[The_Jette]

You must have access to the spell, but if you can get it from someone or something else, you do not need to be capable of casting it yourself. A Wizard can use their Scribe Scroll feat to help the Cleric make cleric scrolls just fine - the cleric simply needs to be present throughout the crafting process and provide the magic.

You highlighted the part about someone else casting for you and avoided highlighting this part:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
Now, given the earlier part, of someone else casting the spell for you, I admitted that you can interpret this in a way that someone can cast the spell while you scribe the scroll. It can also be interpreted the other way, that you have to know the spell in order to make scrolls, potions, or wands. Potions are named; scrolls are spell-completion items; and, wands are spell-trigger items. In this situation, it's vague. There are other situations where spells are needed in order to make a magic item, like Wish or Miracle for the Luck Blade. This is a grey area. So, if the DM says it's fine, then it's fine. But, the DM can interpret it either way.

[Barstro]

What level are they? There are lots of ways to get arcane access to certain cleric spells - Summon Monster, Planar Binding, Limited Wish...

Not relevant to this discussion (at least by me). It was a minor issue on a side quest that has come and gone. I just wanted to see if a rather liberal reading of the rules was correct. I am pleased that it is not.

As for other ways to do what the party wanted, I'm sure there are ways that it could be done. More importantly, I'm sure that it would take more effort from the party and we can face our consequences of rushed actions.

[Psyren]

You highlighted the part about someone else casting for you and avoided highlighting this part:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

Exactly, you DO meet the prereqs - via access through another person or magic item. Meeting the prereqs does not mean you are forced to be wholly independent.

[The_Jette]

Exactly, you DO meet the prereqs - via access through another person or magic item. Meeting the prereqs does not mean you are forced to be wholly independent.

You're just completely unwilling to accept that other people may interpret something different than you. You could read it as the scriber meets prereqs through someone else's spells. But, you can also read it as you do not meet the prerequisites because you cannot cast the spell to be scribed. I'm not discounting the ability of others to assist in other item creation. But, it is possible to read the entry in a way that disallows the assistance of others specifically for the creation of scrolls, potions, wands, and probably Staves, depending on the abilities. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong; just that it's only one of multiple interpretations.

[Psyren]

You're just completely unwilling to accept that other people may interpret something different than you.

There are instances where I do accept that multiple interpretations exist. But not this specific one; I simply believe your interpretation is wrong. The parenthetical that I bolded comes immediately after the specific prerequisite being discussed (i.e. the "spells that must be known by the item's creator" prerequisite) and thus clearly modifies that.

[The_Jette]

There are instances where I do accept that multiple interpretations exist. But not this specific one; I simply believe your interpretation is wrong. The parenthetical that I bolded comes immediately after the specific prerequisite being discussed (i.e. the "spells that must be known by the item's creator" prerequisite) and thus clearly modifies that.

The part you bolded came after the general part of what was required for creating all magic items, which was followed by the specific part about potions, spell-triggered, and spell completion items. Specific trumps general, so the situation is not as cut and dry as you're trying to make it.

[Florian]

The part you bolded came after the general part of what was required for creating all magic items, which was followed by the specific part about potions, spell-triggered, and spell completion items. Specific trumps general, so the situation is not as cut and dry as you're trying to make it.

Jette, create a flow-chart on item creation and you´ll end up with Psyrens interpretation.

[Psyren]

The part you bolded came after the general part of what was required for creating all magic items, which was followed by the specific part about potions, spell-triggered, and spell completion items. Specific trumps general, so the situation is not as cut and dry as you're trying to make it.

SKR, back when he was a dev, said that the way I interpreted it (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ls4r?Can-I-scribe-a-scroll-without-knowing-the-spell#48) is what they intended, specifically citing scrolls. So I stand by all my statements.

[The_Jette]

SKR, back when he was a dev, said that the way I interpreted it (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ls4r?Can-I-scribe-a-scroll-without-knowing-the-spell#48) is what they intended, specifically citing scrolls. So I stand by all my statements.

You realize you just sited a source that was from an argument concerning whether or not it was possible to scribe a scroll with someone else casting it, and that even after SKR made his quote the argument continued. I'm not familiar with SKR, personally, nor his position in the dev team. If he was responsible for writing that section of the book, that's one thing. If his position was playtesting, then his opinion on the matter is just as valid as anyone else's and no more. If there's an errata that writes it out in black and white that you can cooperate with someone else to scribe a scroll, that's one thing. But, someone putting their opinion on a situation in a messageboard is far from official.

[Psyren]

Well Jette, if a dev statement isn't going to convince you then we've probably wasted enough time here. Sorry we couldn't see eye to eye.