Removing the divine/arcane separation from spellcasting.

[sammyp03]

I am considering removing the separation of divine and arcane magic (ie spell lists) from my homebrew setting since it makes no sense in my setting.

I understand that it will at the very least, make casters more flexible which in turn will more than likely make them more powerful.

My question is if there is a way to balance this for non casters and if anyone has had any chance to play this way?

[DivisibleByZero]

Technically, 5e already did it for you.
Unless you're talking about removing spell list restrictions?

[dejarnjc]

I am considering removing the separation of divine and arcane magic from my homebrew setting since it makes no sense in my setting.

I understand that it will at the very least, make casters more flexible which in turn will more than likely make them more powerful.

My question is if there is a way to balance this for non casters and if anyone has had any chance to play this way?

Depending on what you're doing exactly it does have the potential to upset the balance of classes. I think you need to give us more specifics though before we can give suggestions.

[sammyp03]

Removing spell list restrictions. Since in my setting, all spell casters derive there ability to wield magic from the same source, they should be able to do the same things. The difference comes in there classes and how they come to use this source to manipulate magic.

So a wizard comes to use this source through study, a divine character comes to use this source because the gods enable them too.

[DivisibleByZero]

Removing spell list restrictions. Since in my setting, all spell casters derive there ability to wield magic from the same source, they should be able to do the same things. The difference comes in there classes and how they come to use this source to manipulate magic.

So a wizard comes to use this source through study, a divine character comes to use this source because the gods enable them too.

Gotcha.
So I'm telling you right now that you're going to have a party full of Clerics, possibly with some multiclassing, who all cast Wizard spells while they're concentrating on Cleric spells.

[dejarnjc]

How will they learn new spells? Will clerics and druids just have access to the entire spell list?

[sammyp03]

How will they learn new spells? Will clerics and druids just have access to the entire spell list?

Not sure about this. I'd have to figure that out

[sammyp03]

Gotcha.
So I'm telling you right now that you're going to have a party full of Clerics, possibly with some multiclassing, who all cast Wizard spells while they're concentrating on Cleric spells.

Yeah I get it. Just trying to see if it's a viable idea

[dejarnjc]

Yeah I get it. Just trying to see if it's a viable idea

I think it's viable. I'd just talk to your players first and get a sense of what they want to do and let them know that you reserve the right to make balance changes at any point.

[The_Jette]

I am considering removing the separation of divine and arcane magic from my homebrew setting since it makes no sense in my setting.

I understand that it will at the very least, make casters more flexible which in turn will more than likely make them more powerful.

My question is if there is a way to balance this for non casters and if anyone has had any chance to play this way?

So, why exactly do you want to change the source of where classes get magic from? Aside from throwing off balance, where they get their power is 99% of the fluff for these classes. Sorcerer's have magic in their blood and cast instinctively. Wizards are studious, and scour ancient tomes to figure out how the ancient Wizards derived their power so they can build off of it. Clerics devote their lives to a deific cause, and are recognized as true followers by their Gods, who then give them access to power. Druids revere nature, and draw upon the energy of life and death itself, finding balance in the land and protecting the natural world. To take that away isn't something that one should do without a lot of forethought and strong reasoning. Other than that, let us know how it turns out.

[sammyp03]

So, why exactly do you want to change the source of where classes get magic from? Aside from throwing off balance, where they get their power is 99% of the fluff for these classes. Sorcerer's have magic in their blood and cast instinctively. Wizards are studious, and scour ancient tomes to figure out how the ancient Wizards derived their power so they can build off of it. Clerics devote their lives to a deific cause, and are recognized as true followers by their Gods, who then give them access to power. Druids revere nature, and draw upon the energy of life and death itself, finding balance in the land and protecting the natural world. To take that away isn't something that one should do without a lot of forethought and strong reasoning. Other than that, let us know how it turns out.

Because of my setting. As I said in an earlier reply all spell casters access a source of power that lets them do magical effects. HOW THEY ACCESS the source is where the class fluff comes in but the fact still remains that it's the same source which means that even though they came to access the source by different way doesn't mean they should produced different effects

[DivisibleByZero]

Because of my setting. As I said in an earlier reply all spell casters access a source of power that lets them do magical effects. HOW THEY ACCESS the source is where the class fluff comes in but the fact still remains that it's the same source which means that even though they came to access the source by different way doesn't mean they should produced different effects

I don't see the need to change anything.
How they access the source could be the reason itself. Maybe certain manners of access only allow certain kinds of magic.
I'd just leave it as is.

[sammyp03]

I don't see the need to change anything.
How they access the source could be the reason itself. Maybe certain manners of access only allow certain kinds of magic.
I'd just leave it as is.

This is a good option and I may do it but it still doesn't make sense with the vision I have for magic users in my setting. Thanks for the reply

[The_Jette]

Because of my setting. As I said in an earlier reply all spell casters access a source of power that lets them do magical effects. HOW THEY ACCESS the source is where the class fluff comes in but the fact still remains that it's the same source which means that even though they came to access the source by different way doesn't mean they should produced different effects

My question was why you decided to change the source of magic for everyone into the same source. It's not an in-game, "where does magic come from" type of why, but an out of game "what made you decide to change something that is so fundamental to the game" type of question.

[sammyp03]

My question was why you decided to change the source of magic for everyone into the same source. It's not an in-game, "where does magic come from" type of why, but an out of game "what made you decide to change something that is so fundamental to the game" type of question.

Ah I see. If I sounded rude I apologize I didn't mean to.

As for the question, I don't run the generic forgotten realms setting. My setting is completely homebrewed.

[Trampaige]

It sounds like you basically need to make every caster similar to the UA favored soul?

Limited spells known list, but can pick any spell they want within their level range from any spell list (keep in mind the power level of paladin and ranger spells.)

To differentiate the classes, druids have wildshaping, wizards have their specializations, sorcerers have metamagic, clerics have divinity and proficiencies, bards have their bardy stuff, and warlocks are just disappointed.

This also reigns in their power against martials, because everybody has much more limited access to spells.

Bards know 22 spells at 20, sorcerers know 15. Play around with spells known to add flavor/power to classes if necessary - eg, giving bonus spells to wizards based off their specialization, or make it so all sorcerers use the spell points variant.


Edit: This really sucks the uniqueness out of patrons and domains, though, and messes up the balance there.

[8wGremlin]

Ive run this.

The gods restrict magic to their followers. And this only allow their followers access to it.

They punish any transgressions.

Wizards learn by rote and have worked out how to get round some of the loopholes in reality and can cast spells as normal.

Sorcerers have magic innately and thus can pick and choose from any list.

Warlocks also can find a patron that will defy the gods edicts and teach cleric spells

Lastly Druids, by dedicating themselves to its service some people are allowed to harness natures power to do its bidding

[sammyp03]

It sounds like you basically need to make every caster similar to the UA favored soul?

Limited spells known list, but can pick any spell they want within their level range from any spell list (keep in mind the power level of paladin and ranger spells.)

To differentiate the classes, druids have wildshaping, wizards have their specializations, sorcerers have metamagic, clerics have divinity and proficiencies, bards have their bardy stuff, and warlocks are just disappointed.

This also reigns in their power against martials, because everybody has much more limited access to spells.

Bards know 22 spells at 20, sorcerers know 15. Play around with spells known to add flavor/power to classes if necessary - eg, giving bonus spells to wizards based off their specialization, or make it so all sorcerers use the spell points variant.


Edit: This really sucks the uniqueness out of patrons and domains, though, and messes up the balance there.

I like this idea a lot. Thank you very much.

As for the domains and patrons I think I could still find a way to make them unique. Maybe by either still giving them the bonus spells or empowering them in some way

[Mhl7]

Actually, if I remember correctly, every spell caster in Forgotten interacts with the same source: The Weave. They just access it differently. It feels the you are doing the same.

I don't see any reason to get an headache to change the mechanics where you can simply change very slightly the fluff and not by all that much.

[sammyp03]

Actually, if I remember correctly, every spell caster in Forgotten interacts with the same source: The Weave. They just access it differently. It feels the you are doing the same.

I don't see any reason to get an headache to change the mechanics where you can simply change very slightly the fluff and not by all that much.

Uh sure but the magic in my setting doesn't work like the magic in forgotten realms, thus my want for no divine arcane separation.

Magic in my setting comes from a reservoir of power that was used to fuel the creation. Casters manipulate the ley-lines of the reservoir creating special braids and knots and weaves to achieve a desired effect. So the idea is that since it comes from the same source, all casters should be able to perform the same effects. My wizards should be able to heal and resurrect (provided they are strong enough) and my clerics should be able to chunk fireballs or meteor swarms.

I have a very distinct vision for how magic works in my setting, which entails no divine arcane difference.

[Iamcreative]

I dont mean to be rude, so forgive me if I come off that way.

But isn't that the same as the default? Gods grant access to the weave for clerics, wizards study the weave, sourcerers are born able to manipulate the weave, bard sing to it or whatever bards do.

Then the way they come about it shapes their interpretation or something like that. Which makes it so all the people who are just messing with the weave end up with different results.

Iirc, there isnt really a good reason wizards cant cast cleric spells and vica versa. Besides their own perceptions of the weave.

[8wGremlin]

How you access the magic - as in class
Your focus or talent means you gravitate to certain types of spells - as in spell list


1) select caster base (cleric, druid, bard, warlock, sorcerer, wizard)
2) select focus (divine, nature, sound, pact, blood, arcane)


Cleric + pact = Cleric casting Warlock spells
Druid + arcane = wildshaping Druid with wizard spells
Wizard + divine = cloistered school Wizard casting Cleric spells
Bard + blood = social charmer Bard with innate Sorcerer spells
Warlock + nature = Nature spirit Patron warlock casting druid spells (some work may need to be done on invocations)
Sorcerer + sound = banshee Sorcerer casting Bard spells

[RickAllison]

Uh sure but the magic in my setting doesn't work like the magic in forgotten realms, thus my want for no divine arcane separation.

Magic in my setting comes from a reservoir of power that was used to fuel the creation. Casters manipulate the ley-lines of the reservoir creating special braids and knots and weaves to achieve a desired effect. So the idea is that since it comes from the same source, all casters should be able to perform the same effects. My wizards should be able to heal and resurrect (provided they are strong enough) and my clerics should be able to chunk fireballs or meteor swarms.

I have a very distinct vision for how magic works in my setting, which entails no divine arcane difference.

The change you are proposing has nothing to do with the arcane-divine separation. Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers all are arcane, but they only share some spells. Paladins, Rangers, Clerics, and Druids all are divine, but they don't share spells. Bards are a weird hybrid. They don't get spells based on their power source, but based on how they access it.

As for balance, you kind of throw it out the window. Druids get powerful concentration spells like Call Lightning at the cost of instantaneous options like Fireball. Spirit Guardians becomes a must-have for everyone. Sorcerers will destroy the world with Subtle Spell. Well, that last one may just be me...

[CantigThimble]

How do you feel about different classes having easier access to some kinds of magic? For example, a druid is specialized in magic that is related to land and the elements and so it takes him less effort to learn and cast those spells? Does that fit with your lore?

If so then I suggest a simple fix: Allow people to take spells cross class, but they can only cast them using slots at least one level higher. For example, a bard can learn magic missile but can only cast it using a second level (or higher) spell slot. Even with upcasting benefits, most spells are weakened significantly by this so most of the broken combos become much less viable.

If you are concerned about caster/martial balance then I would suggest limiting spellcasters in some way to compensate for the increased flexibility. Perhaps, curring down the number of spells they can prepare by a decent bit, maybe a third. (So a wizard can prepare a number of spells equal to his int mod + 2 for every 3 levels, ect.)

[sammyp03]

The change you are proposing has nothing to do with the arcane-divine separation. Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers all are arcane, but they only share some spells. Paladins, Rangers, Clerics, and Druids all are divine, but they don't share spells. Bards are a weird hybrid. They don't get spells based on their power source, but based on how they access it.

As for balance, you kind of throw it out the window. Druids get powerful concentration spells like Call Lightning at the cost of instantaneous options like Fireball. Spirit Guardians becomes a must-have for everyone. Sorcerers will destroy the world with Subtle Spell. Well, that last one may just be me...

I disagree but I'm not going to argue with you over the internet.

[Flashy]

I'd argue that the biggest boost from this probably goes to the Tempest Cleric (who can now throw out maximized Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings without multiclass shenanigans), or maybe the Abjurer Wizard (who can now do the Ward/Armor of Agathys combo, access fun stuff like Shield of Faith, and generally write off the possibility of being seriously hurt in combat ever again).

On the other hand the Light and Trickery Clerics are looking pretty silly, since much of their power came from the ability to access flashy non-Cleric spells. Bard needs a feature to replace Magical Secrets since it no longer really does anything. Tome Pact Warlocks are just accessing the exact same ritual casting that Wizards have.

There are also a handful of spells on the Ranger/Paladin list which are exceptionally good for their spell level (Find Steed, Swift Quiver, etc) which all casters can now access freely. Basically every spellcaster is going to have a familiar and a Paladin mount.

[Beelzebubba]

Cleric is the caster with the best armor, highest hit points, best weapon proficiencies, and the same spell list as everyone else?

Why would anyone be another class of caster, ever?

[DivisibleByZero]

Cleric is the caster with the best armor, highest hit points, best weapon proficiencies, and the same spell list as everyone else?

Why would anyone be another class of caster, ever?

Fixed it for you.

[Spellbreaker26]

The spell lists are (mostly) pretty well designed in terms of balance. Why do Bards only get one attack cantrip? To make up for magical secrets. Why do clerics only get Sacred Flame? To make up for their proficiencies and durability.

Mushing all the spell lists together is basically a guarentee that there are going to be shenanigans. The Bard's Magical secrets are extremely limited and already it's up there with Wizard as one of the most dangerous casting classes. Speaking of Wizard, you now have a class that can potentially learn every single spell in the game. Hmm.

Spells like the Paladin's Aura of Vitality and the Ranger's Swift Quiver will get pillaged, reducing the attraction to those classes.

I would suggest giving this a good hard think because I can't see any way to accomplish what you're going for without torpedoing balance. Casters are already good; who would ever play a martial if any caster class can have Find Familiar, Fireball, Aura of Vitality and Spirit Guardians without having to multiclass?

[rbstr]

I'd certainly argue that there's no real Divine/Arcane separation in 5e.
But there are spell lists. And those exist mostly to provide flavor-based balance.

I'd leave it as it for the most part. It makes plenty of sense, to me, that a caster would specialize in particular ways of manipulating magic and that would mean there are spells they can and can't use.

If you really need to have spells be more universal, you can pick some spells to add to a "universal" list that anyone can use. Like not a really big deal to have cure wounds on a wizard really or give Clerics firebolt.

[Rysto]

Also, now every class with access to cantrips can pick up Shillelagh and attack with their casting stat -- this includes EK Fighter and AT Rogue. Paladins can trivially pick it up with a one level dip into a CHA-based full caster or taking Magic Initiate.

Balancing this properly would be a huge task and I really don't think that it's necessary. I'm currently running a campaign where all PC abilities, from martial abilities to magic, are bestowed on the PCs by a single god. None of my players have complained about the different classes having different spell lists.

[RickAllison]

Also, now every class with access to cantrips can pick up Shillelagh and attack with their casting stat -- this includes EK Fighter and AT Rogue. Paladins can trivially pick it up with a one level dip into a CHA-based full caster or taking Magic Initiate.

Balancing this properly would be a huge task and I really don't think that it's necessary. I'm currently running a campaign where all PC abilities, from martial abilities to magic, are bestowed on the PCs by a single god. None of my players have complained about the different classes having different spell lists.

I am most interested in the applications with Magic Initiate. Shillelagh is quite useful for the fighter (can't be used for Sneak Attack), but rogues would prefer the Magic Stone cantrip. Fire those stones from a sling and you have a spell attack from a weapon, which is perfectly fine for Sneak Attack. Say hello, heavily-armored rogue/Cleric 1 who uses his Intelligence to perfectly aim his sling!

[Lord Il Palazzo]

It's not a change I'd personally make. From a gameplay perspective, classes are balanced around what spells (and what types of spells) they have access too. Giving every spellcaster access to every spell is too big a power boost, often to classes that don't really need it.

From a thematic perspective, I'll echo what others have asked: why? All magic comes from the same source? That doesn't mean it all has to take the same form. I guess to give an illustration of what I'm thinking, imagine three fishermen. All of their fish comes from the same source (the sea) but they'll each catch different types of fish depending on how they go about accessing that source. The guy who fishes from the shore will catch different types of fish than the guy who fishes from a boat a mile off shore who will catch different types of fish than the guy who sets out traps and comes back later to check them. Same source, yes, but different methods still lead to different results. You can have a unified source of all magic without giving everyone every spell so the question of why you need to do it remains.

To do something as disruptive to the game's balance and structure, I'd need a big reason. The "all magic comes from the same source and always takes the same form" idea would have to be absolutely central not just to my setting, but to my specific campaign. "It's just how my setting is" wouldn't begin to cut it to justify the amount of balance issues this raises and the number of adjustments it would require (like figuring out what to do about the way clerics now just "know" every spell). I'd need to have a story arc that couldn't possibly exist without that rule to consider it worthwhile. There are enough things to play with to create a non-generic fantasy setting (races that are available, classes or subclasses that are available (maybe limited by race), technology level and level of social development, level of magic, level of involvement by the Gods or other otherworldly influences, world/regional climate/ecology (ocean world vs. jungle world vs. desert world), etc.) that this would be way down my list if my only priority was to create a distinctive setting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not only is balance disrupted, but flavor is also lost-- 5e leans heavily on spell lists for distinguishing caster classes, and changing that means losing a lot. That said, I think this

If so then I suggest a simple fix: Allow people to take spells cross class, but they can only cast them using slots at least one level higher. For example, a bard can learn magic missile but can only cast it using a second level (or higher) spell slot. Even with upcasting benefits, most spells are weakened significantly by this so most of the broken combos become much less viable.
Is a good compromise