UPDATE: Stripping players of their starting gear

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

A while back I posted that for session 1 (or part of it) I would have an event that would strip my players of their gear and throw them into a survival game head first. They would quickly acquire required items and the most important parts of their equipment as replacements (ie, not the same stuff they had, but essentially the same items). They would likely never recover their actual gear.

And the forum kinda liked the idea in principle. And without spoiling too much, I have talked the idea through as much as I can with my players and they all think its cool.

Well, theres a problem. Trinkets. Ok, Im gunna be honest, I REALLY dont like them. At all. Im not totally sure why. Something to do with them being in the PHB as part of character creation really rankles with me. A lot. I guess somewhere in my head I feel they should be in the DMG with random magic item tables. Something the player and dm work on together. Or that if players truly cared about a trinket, they could just add one to their backstory. BUT my players love them. To bits.

Ive already got one player saying shes gunna force it to be part of the campaign whether I want it in there or not. Shes going to bring it up to every NPC, all the players, everyone. All the time. Thats what she said. "All the time". Its a cube with painted faces. Its not even magical. Its just.... well its going to make social interaction increasingly hard both in and out of character as I get more pissed off by it.

And now I am freaking out that shes going to have a go at me when I take her items away. Its going to seem to her that I want to remove the item from her. And while I would rather she didnt have it, the removal of items has been a setting Ive had planned for months.

The others are on her side too. They are all knew and loved hearing me and her discussing our respective games. They seem to think shes the worlds best player (a title I cant refute as this will be my first game with her) and that I am the worlds best DM (Im not). Now they want to see what stories I will weave with their trinkets.

The game is tomorrow evening. The way I see it, I have 4 options.

1) Play what I had planned and deal with the fall out (whatever it may be). Ive already compromised so much I didnt want to because I didnt want to let them all down and for some reason I think "I dont like it" is only a valid reason when they use it (I dont like 5th, but one of them doesnt like 3.5e, so 5th we are playing. I dont like trinkets, they like trinkets, so trinkets are in. Tumble and Overrun are second nature to me, but they think its too confusing, so those were quickly taken out of my house rules. Oh, god. Why am I even DMing this game?)

2) Straight up tell them exactly what I have planned. This solves all current issues, but bye bye element of surprise, which is sort of the cornerstone of this campaign.

3) Try and throw together another campaign in between now and work tomorrow. Lots of work, and I lose out on a game ive wanted to run for ages, but it would probably work best.

4) Quit before I even begin. They are disappointed, I am disappointed, no one wins. Goodnight everybody.

Ok, so this is more a rant than anything constructive. Im posting anyway. I need to vent.

[Kane0]

Can always hand their trinkets out later on in the game instead of during character generation.
You take all their gear, they get their trinkets. Both get what you want, no big deal. Can even be rolled for as they progress. If i remember there will be a dead mage providing spell pouch, there would be an excellent time to also roll a trinket they can steal from his corpse.

[MintyNinja]

I'm going to agree with Kane0, there. If you straight up tell your players that you want to do something different with their trinkets and have them acquire them during the game then they probably see this as you incorporating their dratted mementos after you stripping them to the bones.

[Waterdeep Merch]

To echo the others here, ask your players what kind of trinkets they'd like to have, then use them as loot early on. Even better, since you'd be the one handing them out, you can attach grander significance to each trinket- be they relevant to the backstory of a specific character, or part of a grander mystery.

[Biggstick]

Who is to say that the trinkets taken from them weren't given/picked up by some other person/creature in this world of yours? Maybe other people have seen said trinket on said person/creature's person. This gives you a tool to direct the party towards the goal you want them to persue.

[Contrast]

Well, theres a problem. Trinkets. Ok, Im gunna be honest, I REALLY dont like them. At all. Im not totally sure why. Something to do with them being in the PHB as part of character creation really rankles with me. A lot. I guess somewhere in my head I feel they should be in the DMG with random magic item tables. Something the player and dm work on together. Or that if players truly cared about a trinket, they could just add one to their backstory. BUT my players love them. To bits.

More generally I too am a little confused by your dislike of them. Why does it bug you if your players character has a personal item they're attached to? You say right there that you want the player to work with you and integrate it into their backstory so...maybe do that rather than immediately shutting them down? Ask her why her character cares so much about it. It may be that she'd be perfectly happy to just whittle or buy a replacement if she loses her current one.

Specifically to your current situation, how exactly are you stripping them of their items? If they're being taken prisoner I don't think it would be unreasonable to let them keep minor non-magical knick-knacks.

This is why springing this sort of thing on players is always problematic. Sometimes its fine but the time you try it is always going to be that one time when a player turns up with a backstory all focused around this heirloom sword he uses which he inheirited from his grandfather.

That all said - if your player (not character) throws a wobbly over losing a novelty dice in game thats a tad extreme. In character she can obviously aim to get it back if it had sentimental value but if anything it just gives extra roleplaying opportunity (normally losing your generic sword session 1 only to have it replaced with generic sword #2 wouldn't really register as much of an issue in or out of character - which is one reason to consider just giving them a heads up regardless I guess).

[Bahamut7]

Easiest solution. Have them find their trinkets at the end of session 1. Make it important and grand. They slayed the goblins that had kept them...unfortunately all their equipment was not found...wait, what's this? Is that a custom cube hanging off the chief goblin? Gasp!

In essence, make their trinkets as trophies that enemies have. You can ask the players during an intermission or before the first session if they want their trinkets back right away or over the course of the first few sessions (obviously after they have discovered what is going on and the surprise is already gone).

[TentacleSurpris]

Oh sorry, I misread the title. I thought it was "Stripper Players" and clicked to see pics of your gaming group. My bad.

[Beelzebubba]

Have you considered:

1) Getting over your hatred of something that your players like in their game

2) Not taking all their toys away just because you saw it in a video game once - it sucks

3) Realizing your player is giving you a hard time because you're being irrational

?

:smalltongue:

[Ziegander]

Ive already got one player saying shes gunna force it to be part of the campaign whether I want it in there or not. Shes going to bring it up to every NPC, all the players, everyone. All the time. Thats what she said. "All the time". Its a cube with painted faces. Its not even magical. Its just.... well its going to make social interaction increasingly hard both in and out of character as I get more pissed off by it.

Nobody is put off by this? Are there not other DMs posting in here? This sounds annoying as hell and a player telling me they are going to force something to be in the campaign whether I like it or not sounds like bull. Sure it's easy for us to just say, "oh, she's just messing with you, man, she won't really do that," but we don't know her, and I like to take people at face value if I have no reason not to. And she's got all the other players excited about their trinkets to the point that they now all expect the DM to work them into the story somehow, creating more work and more stress on the DM.

Everybody here seems to think the OP is being unreasonable, but I agree with him, this sounds like a ****ty situation to be put in.

To the OP: I would go with option 1, but at this point, I'd throw in one more compromise. I would figure out a way to let them get their original equipment back during the course of the adventure. Perhaps they only get scraps back at a time. Perhaps the player who is by far the most into their trinket finds a way to keep hold of it even though they lose everything else (not like it impacts any stats or ability the character has anyway).

[Contrast]

Snip

Player rolls up a character and rolls up a trinket as the rulebook tells them they can.
Player really likes the idea of the trinket and tells the DM how stoked they are to play the character and incorporate it in the game.
DM says nothing (afraid of revealing his twist where all their items will be taken away).

Yes what a monster of a player, how dare they :smalltongue:

Of course if the DM asked his players not to roll for trinkets (because they annoy him for some inexplicable reason) and they insisted they were going to do so anyway and rub it in his face every five minutes then yeah thats a bit of a jerk move.

Sounds to me like the DM specifically raised no objections because he wants his gotcha moment to remain a suprise (per one of his proposed solutions being, telling them). So the player likely doesn't even know she has earned his ire given shes never played with him before and has presumably no reasonable way of knowing he dislikes trinkets seeing as he explicitly chose not to tell her.

[Beelzebubba]

Everybody here seems to think the OP is being unreasonable, but I agree with him, this sounds like a ****ty situation to be put in.

It is one completely of his own creation.

His hatred of a harmless little tiny personal item, carried around by the player as a signifier of personality, is totally out of whack.

It's silly, and mockable.

Taking those away is the mark of an insecure DM that thinks respect is earned by force.

[Ziegander]

Of course if the DM asked his players not to roll for trinkets (because they annoy him for some inexplicable reason) and they insisted they were going to do so anyway and rub it in his face every five minutes then yeah thats a bit of a jerk move.

That's... exactly how it sounded to me.


Sounds to me like the DM specifically raised no objections because he wants his gotcha moment to remain a suprise (per one of his proposed solutions being, telling them). So the player likely doesn't even know she has earned his ire given shes never played with him before and has presumably no reasonable way of knowing he dislikes trinkets seeing as he explicitly chose not to tell her.

If the DM didn't tell the players they would lose their starting gear, then, yeah, that's really, really ****ty. Gotcha moments like that are just rude. He says he discussed the idea with the players as much as he could without giving away spoilers. That's not super specific, but I was giving the DM the benefit of the doubt that he at least told them they'd lose their starting gear - which would include their trinkets.


It is one completely of his own creation.

His hatred of a harmless little tiny personal item, carried around by the player as a signifier of personality, is totally out of whack.

It's silly, and mockable.

Taking those away is the mark of an insecure DM that thinks respect is earned by force.

*facepalm*

He personally thinks trinkets are dumb. I would tend to agree. That doesn't mean I hate them. If a player wants one, I don't care, it doesn't do anything in-game. It's not that he hates trinkets, he hates the idea of a player insisting that they will play with one, they will actively use it and force the DM to interact with it at every opportunity. As I think any sane DM should. :smallconfused:

He's not taking away trinkets because he hates them. He's taking away all of the players' starting gear (which includes their trinkets), because that is, or it sounds like to me, the entire premise of the adventure.

Are you all just missing the point that essentially the DM crafted an adventure based around the characters all losing their starting equipment, but now one player wants to force a piece of their starting equipment into the actual plot and storyline of the DMs adventure and has gotten all of the other players actively expectant of the DM to weave plotlines for pieces of their starting equipment as well? Because that's the situation the OP has described.

Now, if the DM hasn't told the players they would be losing their starting equipment, I agree, OP ****ed up, that whole premise is ****ty and ****ed up, and he's made his bed and has to lie in it, but I don't think that's the case (I hope it isn't). Rather than jump to conclusions, though, I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when he says he discussed the campaign with his players.

[Biggstick]

Nobody is put off by this? Are there not other DMs posting in here? This sounds annoying as hell and a player telling me they are going to force something to be in the campaign whether I like it or not sounds like bull. Sure it's easy for us to just say, "oh, she's just messing with you, man, she won't really do that," but we don't know her, and I like to take people at face value if I have no reason not to. And she's got all the other players excited about their trinkets to the point that they now all expect the DM to work them into the story somehow, creating more work and more stress on the DM.

How important is this Player to the DM and everyone else's fun? Does the Player bring more fun or less fun to the overall game? Does giving the Player this thing satisfy what they want from the game and still allow them to contribute to everyone else's fun? It's not just the DM's story being told, it's the entire group telling a story together.

Oh my gosh, getting other players excited about their story?!?! How dare she?! I'd love to have a player who got all of my other players excited about their backstories. It makes the world more real if the players are invested in their story, as the DM can now use the content the players have created and add nice little wrinkles to the story they already have in place.


Sounds to me like the DM specifically raised no objections because he wants his gotcha moment to remain a suprise (per one of his proposed solutions being, telling them). So the player likely doesn't even know she has earned his ire given shes never played with him before and has presumably no reasonable way of knowing he dislikes trinkets seeing as he explicitly chose not to tell her.

I don't want to completely derail the thread, but this bolded section seems to be the entire essence of the situation. A bit part of the DM's campaign revolves around not having any of the base starting equipment gear, and the Players don't know it yet.

When I played this campaign, I HATED finding out that I was in prison and wouldn't be starting with any of my stuff. I honestly didn't have fun for the first 6 levels of the campaign, because I wasn't aware of what the campaign was really going to start as. This completely turned me off to the campaign, and my wife and I ended up dropping out of said campaign. One session later, the group ended up falling apart.

It's the only campaign I've been in in which we didn't get any of our starting gear, that I wasn't aware we'd have all our gear taken from us. If I had gone into the game knowing I'd have nothing, it would have been quite a bit more fun for me as a Player.
So in my mind, if you plan on taking everything from your PC's, which it sounds like you do, I would be willing to divulge some information to your Players. If it seems like the Players are absolutely stuck on the idea of having these special trinkets, or some other important item, ask them questions about what those items might be? An example question might be, "If you had to lose everything on your person, what is the one thing you'd hate to lose most?" If you frame it as a question not necessarily regarding your campaign's "gotcha" moment, you might actually learn a bit more about your Player's background story. You'll learn why they value said item so highly. And if they give a compelling enough reason, have said trinket or item either still be on the PC's person, or nearby.

[Contrast]

That's... exactly how it sounded to me.


If OP clearly explained what was up (beyond 'taken against your will'/'survival game') its not clear to me how:


Now they want to see what stories I will weave with their trinkets.

Or:


I dont like trinkets, they like trinkets, so trinkets are in.

Could have happened. Or how:



2) Straight up tell them exactly what I have planned. This solves all current issues, but bye bye element of surprise, which is sort of the cornerstone of this campaign.

Could be presented as a 'solution'.

It's possible OP explained the idea for the game some time ago and his players simply haven't realised that this is that game. To be honest we're not going to know unless OP himself turns up and he said the game was today so (hopefully) his concerns and worries were all ill founded and everyone is currently having a great time :smallbiggrin:

[Mellack]

Since the OP said they didn't want to ruin the surprise, it sounds to me like they did not discuss the idea that the characters will be starting without equipment.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would sit down this player and ask her WHY she's forcing the trinket into the campaign. Was it a joke? Did she really like the idea of an additional mystery? Is her character lacking in the charisma department, so in her mind, having the character interrupt conversations to ask about a random item? Does she think the item would be extremely rare? Does she think it suits her character?

And with that knowledge, work out a compromise. I get the feeling you are doing this a lot...Do you enjoy this bunch of players? I'm not really getting that from you. But if you want to keep them, work it in. Even if that means that you work it in that her character has been sheltered and people sell that crap regularly, so it means nothing.

And for clarification and because I know things are exaggerated for entertainment purposes on a regular basis, how did the argument go exactly? I think I am reading it as they rolled on the table without asking and then starting talking about them and the DM felt it was rude to take them away.

[Albions_Angel]

So in the end it all worked out.

Went with telling them to pick their trinkets but that they wouldnt be starting with them. Instead they would find them early in the campaign.

What they knew in advance was that it was a survival game and they would be struggling for resources and equipment. I did not tell them I would be stripping them of their gear because I wanted that real level of panic as they improvised weapons and armour. After reading some things here though, I started dropping more hints not to get too attached to things.

In hindsight the better way to have done it would have been to START them with no gear, but 3 of them were new players entirely and I wanted the first half of the session to be a bit of a tutorial, with an arena to fight in and a mini-dungeon to run through, teaching them how to use skills, equipment, attacks, etc.

They recovered effectively all their essential equipment (a weapon and shield for the fighter, component pouch for the druid, arcane focus for the sorc) within the first couple of rooms and the first encounter (a single crawling claw). They are still lacking several things (a decent weapon, some ranged stuff, armour) but will find those early next session (we ran out of time).

The problem I was having wasnt so much stripping their stuff. It was for such a short period of time it was never going to be that much of a horrible move, and by the end they will have spent less time unarmed than the prebuilt campaign where everyone starts in a prison. The problem I WAS having was that they have been teleported by a mysterious entity deep underground without their personal affects. While you can replace a sword, the trinkets are so specific. And then to have the players turn round and demand they be part of the game... well I panicked.

I chatted with the girl afterwords. She agrees with my eventual decision, and really enjoyed today. Maybe it wouldnt be a game for you guys, but the players really liked the (very real) fear and panic of trying to break a table apart to make clubs out of the legs while a zombie hammered on the door. Apparently, in a previous game, a friend of hers ended up with the spoon trinket. He HAD gone around asking every NPC if they knew what it was, and their DM, who is more... forgiving? of that sense of humour?... than I am eventually turned it into the major mcguffin that the BBEG wanted for... something. She wanted to see if she could do something similar. We chatted about it and agreed that we can work on her trinket (when she finds it) being worked into the larger plot, but that the tone of my game isnt like that, and that asking every NPC wont get it in the game, but WILL piss me off IRL. Recurring jokes are only funny to a point.

Basically, new system, dislike of system in general from a couple of experiences, worry about both game and work, desire to pull of a particular plot point, crossed wires, panic, perfect storm.

In the end, everyone had a blast and while we called it a day, everyone went home talking about how they are gunna find food and water, and how to start exploring the massive underground complex they have found themselves in, as well as how they got there and how they are going to get out. The group chat is still buzzing with it 2 hours on.

Thanks for all your help and advice. Sorry it caused some arguments here.

[noob]

Seems like those players played too much with adventures games where you speak of each item you own to everybody you meet just for hearing the fun responses of the npcs(or even the lack of fun of the answer).

[Vaz]

Your way of approaching things is not a good way of doing it. Basically, it's a sales approach.

By the looks of the OP, you said "Guys, I'm stripping all of your characters gear, you're starting with nothing". If you sold it as "Guys, we're playing a survival game, where you earn your starting gear", your pitch is a lot more interesting and less punitive.

Think about this;

Blizzard made a game called World of Warcraft. They implemented a system to encourage people to not play the game for literal days at a time, in which they would reduce everyone's XP gain after a certain amount of time of playing - when they logged out, and spent a certain amount of time off-line, this penalty would reset to 0. There was uproar. If people wanted to play for that long, why shouldn't they get the XP for grinding it for hours? Blizzard backtracked, but then they decided to rebalance the game, reducing XP gain across the board, but doubling everyone's XP gain for the first few hours of playing. It was functionally exactly the same. After the same amount of time, everyone would still be getting the same XP as they did before. A monster which once provided 100XP now provided 50XP, except that during the first few hours, that XP gain would be 100XP; after 8 hours, in the original design, it would only provide 50XP, but after the update, and after 8 hours of playing, that monster would still only be worth 50XP. No functional difference, but it was a matter of PR in that what one idea was hated, the other was fantastic. One was doing something for the players, the other was taking something away.

Saying "we are trying something different, lets play a survival game" is better than "Let's play D&D, by the way I'm taking all of your stuff".

[Bahamut7]

Glad to hear it all worked out. Nice way to handle the trinket aspect. Would love to hear occasional updates as the campaign sounds very fun. I have had to do what your PCs did and I loved what they felt as well. It really brings you into character and the world.

[Beelzebubba]

Well that came out a hell of a lot better than the impression I got from the earlier thread.

Nice work.

Sorry I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Cespenar]

As always, a forum discussion makes something seem like x10 bigger than it is.

Good to hear everyone enjoyed your game, OP.

[fbelanger]

Long time ago our DM make us begin our new character, naked, hunt by a pack of wolf.
It may fit your needs!

[LordCdrMilitant]

I mean, I can see how the GM can dislike some of the trinkets.

One of the trinkets is a 9V Battery. I've learned that GM's hate this one though rolling it, and trying to use it, because, well, it's a battery, and the moment I observed that I not only had a 9V Battery, but had a plan to use the 9V Battery, and the implications of a 9V Battery existing in a world that only understood electricity in the context of Lightning Bolt, combined with the fact that the GM wants his campaign to be about elves-and-dwarves-and-magic fantasy, it was taken away.

I've also got the half-a-blueprint one. I've always hoped my GM would allow me to realize the machine depicted, either through finding the other half, or reconstructing the rest of the machine, but the trinket gets forgotten.

Admittedly, I, as a GM, like trinkets, but many players forget theirs and I most certainly forget them unless it's brought to my attention all the time.

[Spore]

These trinkets are really plothooks in disguise (and I have made it my job to incorporate a fishing hook trinket in all of my characters, because puns). Have them vanish and reappear at random NPCs and areas. What do these people have to do with our kidnapping? WE MUST FIND OUT IMMEDIATELY!

[WickerNipple]

I never imagined I'd see a thread about table drama over trinkets.

I honestly can't even remember a game I've played in 5e where they came up.

[Honest Tiefling]

I guess this thread has made me realize how much a DM might hate a potential trinket, especially if people treated them as a plot coupon. I am very sure a DM would be hard pressed to find out a way to make old socks worthwhile to the plot, and it would feel samey if every plot started out with a rag tag team of heroes that have the contents of the BBEG's junk drawer.

I guess I just assumed they were meant to be personal to the character, and defining the character, not the plot.

[Contrast]

I never imagined I'd see a thread about table drama over trinkets.

I honestly can't even remember a game I've played in 5e where they came up.

I'll be honest, when I originally read this thread I had to go and check the rulebook as I had no idea what these trinkets were he was talking about. I'd managed to completely forget they were even a thing :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

I am very sure a DM would be hard pressed to find out a way to make old socks worthwhile to the plot

Ugh, now I am forced to add old socks to my character's inventory. Just like Granny used to make. Sadly a bear attacked her. She isn't with us anymore.

She tamed it and left with the circus. *sniff* I can still hear her voice: "Sunny, did the bear take my dentures again?" she would ask.

[Honest Tiefling]

Ugh, now I am forced to add old socks to my character's inventory. Just like Granny used to make. Sadly a bear attacked her. She isn't with us anymore.

She tamed it and left with the circus. *sniff* I can still hear her voice: "Sunny, did the bear take my dentures again?" she would ask.

Simple, the BBEG found a pair of the Player Character's old socks...Or a pair worn by their child. And then slipped them into the character's backpack without being noticed. Either way, they establish that they know exactly where the character's family is and has the means do something with that information.

[xanderh]

I'm glad to hear everything worked out, but I'm still a bit confused by the premise. When you took their gear, did you also take their clothes? Or did they get to keep that? If they had their clothes, why couldn't they also keep a potential trinket?
If the Teleportation only brought them and not any of their gear (including clothes), then I understand. Though, that would make for a rather interesting reaction from my usual players if I tried to pull that one.

[Kane0]

Haha, got it first try and first post!

Glad everything went well.

[Albions_Angel]

I'm glad to hear everything worked out, but I'm still a bit confused by the premise. When you took their gear, did you also take their clothes? Or did they get to keep that? If they had their clothes, why couldn't they also keep a potential trinket?
If the Teleportation only brought them and not any of their gear (including clothes), then I understand. Though, that would make for a rather interesting reaction from my usual players if I tried to pull that one.

The party was rendered unconscious by mysterious means (high DC sleep poison, contact administered), and were teleported sans equipment and clothes. They were then dressed in sacrificial robes. I wasnt about to start them naked. They wake up on an alter after having "dreams" of chanting figures, a hulking monster, screams, blood, the sound of booming footsteps retreating into the distance. Basically, they were the offering to a powerful fiend, only the summons went wrong, the BBEG got splattered and now they are miles underground in an ancient city inhabited by undead, goblins, kobolds and snake people (the undead are everywhere and largely disorganized,the other 3 groups form distinctive factions), no food, no water, no way out, with a fiend on the loose setting up a 4th faction of power.

The city heavily borrows from the Pool of Radiance games and lore. A once powerful nation brought to its knees because someone tried to prevent death on a global scale, instead turning most of the city into undead. To prevent the spread, the cities of this empire were sunk below the earth, survivors and all, and it was eventually forgotten. The aim is to survive long enough to escape back to the surface.

They can do a number of things. They can scavenge for weapons, food and water, which will sustain them for a while. They can rely on spells, but if the casters get injured, they are stuck. They will encounter a spirit soon that will help them, offer them quests, etc. These will bring certain aspects of the city back online. They can broker agreements with the various factions, or try and unseat them. Or they can die.

[warmachine]

Sounds like a game I'd like. The trouble is, if a PC dies, where do the replacements come from? If they're similar escapees, they ought to have the same level of equipment but then you need a backstory of how he got that equipment without giving away too many new contacts and food stores. A survivor of an adventuring party from the surface as the escape route collapsed on them is possible but contrived. Adventurer magically preserved when the city was buried. Now I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Let's hope PC deaths are rare.