Convince me to play the hunter subclass

[Marvnmartian]

So a friend of mine has decided he was going to make a ranger because he wanted to be a rambo-esque character that goes into the jungle to kill large animals or bandits for a back story. But as we slowly kept looking at the numbers for the hunter subclass which was the obvious choice for his background the more and more we found it lacking.

This character will be dropped into a already existing campaign in which we have played for the last 2 years and are at level 20 dealing with protecting a continent from a ever going threat of old gods coming back to claim their shrines and land that are under our protection.

the numbers of a 20 battlemaster vs a 20 hunter without crossbow cheese or with it, would come out if all attacks are hits not crits and all dmg is maxed and everyone is running sharpshooter it would look something like


----20 Battlemaster----20 Battlemaster cbe----20 hunter -------20 hunter w/CBE
R1 8d8+40+80=184 -9d6+45+90=189------4d8+15+20=67---3d6+3d8+20+30=92
R2 8d8+40+80=184 -9d6+45+90=189------8d8+25+40=129--4d6+4d8+25+40=121
R3 4d8+20+40=92---5d6+25+50=105-----8d8+25+40=129--4d6+4d8+25+40=121
R4 4d8+20+40=92---5d6+25+50=105-----8d8+25+40=129 --4d6+4d8+25+40=121
R5 4d8+20+40=92---5d6+25+50=105-----8d8+25+40=129 --4d6+4d8+25+40=121
-------Total= 644--------Total= 696-------------Total=583----------Total=576
----------------------------------------------655 w/ Favored enemy---652 w/Favored enemy

to get it close dmg wise we had to give them favored enemy +4 and swift quiver without worry of concentration and I didn't add in the extra 72 damage that could be achieved with superiority dice(remember all 6 could be used in the first round and nova for 256) to make up for not adding in the dice i didnt add the ambuscade damage which would balance between the two excpet cbe hunters would get another 20 total which would put it in second behind the bm +cbe and to remember a fighter can do this same damage after a short rest where as a hunter would have to use their 2 5th level slots for swift quiver and in a third fight be ham stringed and their damage will drop almost in half switching out swift quiver for hunters mark 2d6 instead of the extra 70 damage from swift quiver and to get Cbe and SS would require either vhuman or 2 of their 5 asi's which the fighter doesnt have to worry about they can be stout halfling for halfling luck or pickup wood elf for all of the out of combat bonuses all they want and still get those feats.

so besides flavor reasons.. is their any benefit to choose the ranger instead of the fighter.. a few more skills to help in town, a few utility spells like pass without a trace and emergency heals.. i cant see a reason. So if their is any optimizer/ranger fans that can change my mind please do i hate writing off an entire sub class as not being worth it

[NecroDancer]

The spells are the main draw. You get great stealth, you can summon animals, you can heal, and you can eventually pseudo teleport with trees. Favored enemies are also a great bonus (especially if you choose humans).

I would normally choose the beast master archetype to get an animal buddy or the underdark one to get some cool new spells and abilities.

[Marvnmartian]

The spells are the main draw. You get great stealth, you can summon animals, you can heal, and you can eventually pseudo teleport with trees. Favored enemies are also a great bonus (especially if you choose humans).

I would normally choose the beast master archetype to get an animal buddy or the underdark one to get some cool new spells and abilities.

yeah i can understand the draw to a beast master as a ghostwise halfling riding a wolf or ape into battle.

yeah conjure spells are nice but thats concentration and would half a rangers damage at 20 if they arn't focusing on swift quiver, and tree stride has never been used well enough in a fight that ive found to choose it as a spell known... pass without a trace seems to be the best out of combat reason and i guess giant owl summons for out of combat flight for an hour but in combat its swift quiver or nothing that i can see...

[Contrast]

I'm not gonna run the numbers so I'll trust you on that. Seems like there would be a bit of an issue if the hunter did do more direct damage than the battle master given they have some AoE options and a lot of utility from other class abilities and spells. If your friend doesn't rate those then yeah, go battlemaster. *shrugs* :smalltongue:

[Specter]

Even if Battlemaster does more damage than a Hunter, they don't come close to a ranger's stealth, natural utility, horde options and defense versatility. A battlemaster spending all his die can attack 6 foes, while a ranger can attack up to 16 with Volley or... as many guys as you can fit in a 40-foot radius with Conjure Volley. If we're talking about an army, that's up to what, 200+ guys?

And what's the problem with concentration spells? Resilient (CON) and War Caster are there for you.

[Foxhound438]

ranger is really strong in like the first 5 levels... after that it really falls off, so it's not surprising that at level 20 you find it to be slightly less good.

[Kane0]

See the UA ranger or the one in my signature.

Or do you mean core only ranger?

[Zalabim]

The numbers you have are completely incorrect. If I have to guess: Not all attacks will hit, not all dice will deal maximum damage, colossus slayer is once per turn, and conjure animals is better than swift quiver when the situation is appropriate. Conjure Volley is also an option when there's multiple targets.

The important two things are that the Deep Stalker (UA) is going to be closer to the idea you have presented and you should expect the BM to deal more single target damage. The Ranger has better area attacks, and the Hunter especially so. Basically, only pick the ranger if you want to use their spells, and I don't mean Swift Quiver.

[djreynolds]

Why not use both? Grab TWF and archery style. Plenty of battlemaster/hunters out there

[DeathEatsCurry]

Because the PHB Beastmaster is even worse, and all the other Ranger subclasses are even worse.

Really, you shouldn't ask why you should play the Hunter, but why you should play the Ranger. If you play a PHB Ranger, Hunter is just the best. But PHB Ranger is a class that is designed awfully, and becomes really bad after level 5/6. It's a solid multiclass for Monk, Fighter and Rogue, though. Hunter's Mark alone practically carries the class from being garbage for the first few levels. Even if it's just a worse Hex.

[Sir cryosin]

The ranger is the guy with the machine gun spraying and praying hitting multiple people.

Where the fighter is the guy with the 3 burst rifle taking on one target at a time.

We're the rogue is the sniper.

If you want Rambo play the fighter champion. With a high wisdom with the skills nature, survival, Athletics, perception, stealth