True Mind Switch and Mindflayer Reproduction

[frogglesmash]

If one were to use True Mind Switch on an illithid tadpole and then use that form to go through ceremorphosis with a human victim what would the end result be? Specifically I want to know what would happen to their
-physical ability scores
-mental ability scores
-special attacks\qualities
-RHD

On a related note, does anyone know where I could find stats for an illithid tadpole?

[flappeercraft]

Pretty sure Mental ability scores would be kept at their base and changed by racial traits (at least thats how it seems) and physical ability scores would just change to what the other would have. RHD would also be switched. No idea on where to find Illithid tadpole stats

[frogglesmash]

Pretty sure Mental ability scores would be kept at their base and changed by racial traits (at least thats how it seems) and physical ability scores would just change to what the other would have. RHD would also be switched. No idea on where to find Illithid tadpole stats

What if you never had RHD to begin with? Would just gain an extra eight aberration levels (or however many mindflayers have)?

[flappeercraft]

I would rule it that way as a DM, yes you would as a player in one of my campaigns get the RHD

[Necroticplague]

If one were to use True Mind Switch on an illithid tadpole and then use that form to go through ceremorphosis with a human victim what would the end result be? Specifically I want to know what would happen to their
-physical ability scores
-mental ability scores
-special attacks\qualities
-RHD

On a related note, does anyone know where I could find stats for an illithid tadpole?

LoM has the stats for a Neolithid, which is an illithid tadpole that's grown up quite a bit without undergoing cerebremorphosis.

To answer the main question: I'd rule that it would be no different from True Mind Switching with the resultant illithid after it had undergone cerebremorphosis.

[frogglesmash]

LoM has the stats for a Neolithid, which is an illithid tadpole that's grown up quite a bit without undergoing cerebremorphosis.

To answer the main question: I'd rule that it would be no different from True Mind Switching with the resultant illithid after it had undergone cerebremorphosis.

CPsi also has larval flayer spawn (I may have gotten the name wrong) but both those and the neolithid are too developed for my purposes.

Using that same logic you could argue that if you mind switched with a humanoid, and later got turned into a vampire, you'd only gain the extraordinary abilities and physical stat adjustments of the vampire template.

[OldTrees1]

You are mind switching into a no stats creature that acts as 1 gamete in the formation of the Illithid race.

I would rule you lose everything except your memories, soul debts, and identity (you even lose your ability score rolls*). Congrats you just turned into an illithid (complete package pros and cons).

Physical and Mental scores: Human's ability score rolls + Illithid racial features
RHD: As per Illithid
Racial Featurs/Specials: As per Illithid

*The Half Illithid template tells us that all the ability scores of a half illithid are derived from modifications to the humanoid. The same would probably be true for the regular illithid.

[Segev]

The only purpose behind this that I could see would be to do this so that you could become an illithid with your own body and retain your mind. Beyond that, why not just swap with the illithid you want? Worried about the save, maybe, but...


I don't see a reason why you wouldn't just become an illithid, except keeping your mental stats and class levels. You swapped bodies with the larva, and gained its "perform cerebromorphosis on a human to become an illithid" ability. Which you then used, and became an illithid.

[frogglesmash]

The only purpose behind this that I could see would be to do this so that you could become an illithid with your own body and retain your mind. Beyond that, why not just swap with the illithid you want? Worried about the save, maybe, but...


I don't see a reason why you wouldn't just become an illithid, except keeping your mental stats and class levels. You swapped bodies with the larva, and gained its "perform cerebromorphosis on a human to become an illithid" ability. Which you then used, and became an illithid.

If you just swap with an illithid you don't get its Sp abilities, its telepathy, or its mindblast. It's also not unreasonable to argue that you'd get the mental stat adjustments of an illithid since the tadpole gets significantly more intelligent when it goes through ceremorphosis so why wouldn't you if you are the tadpole.
I do realize that most, if not all of this would be up to DM adjudication. The main reason I started this thread was to see if there was any part of this process that could be adjudicated by RAW.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The main reason I started this thread was to see if there was any part of this process that could be adjudicated by RAW.
Good question; I think you need tadpole stats for that. Until tadpoles have stats, it's impossible to know what they gain from implantation.

[Segev]

It's strongly implied that tadpoles are mindless vermin with stats of "dies if anything wants to kill it" and "swims ineffectually away from whatever chases it."

[Zanos]

It's strongly implied that tadpoles are mindless vermin with stats of "dies if anything wants to kill it" and "swims ineffectually away from whatever chases it."
Correct. Or more directly, Illithid tadpoles have no stats, so you cannot true mind switch with them.

[Segev]

Illithid tadpoles have no stats, so you cannot true mind switch with them.

One bullet point doesn't necessarily lead to the other. Lacking stats doesn't make you immune to spell effects. Nor psionic powers.

[Caelestion]

Vermin are generally immune to mind-affecting powers. Flayer tadpoles are essentially instinctual creatures only until they finally consume brain matter, which raises questions about whether they can even be affected by psionics or not.

[noob]

Furthermore Illithid tadpoles have stats in complete psionics.(and have 2 hd and a cr of 1) so all the arguments saying you can not mind switch in them because they are not stated are weird.

[OldTrees1]

Furthermore Illithid tadpoles have stats in complete psionics.(and have 2 hd and a cr of 1) so all the arguments saying you can not mind switch in them because they are not stated are weird.

Those are not the same as the tadpoles we are talking about. We are talking about the tadpoles young enough and small enough to turn into an illithid. Neothlids(Epic Level Handbook) and those creatures in Complete Psionic are what happens if the tadpole is not turned into an illithid or half illithid.

[ExLibrisMortis]

One bullet point doesn't necessarily lead to the other. Lacking stats doesn't make you immune to spell effects. Nor psionic powers.
Indeed. At the very least, the psionic sandwich trick works just fine on tadpoles, even if it is ruled they are not creatures.

@Caelestion: Tadpoles would most likely be abberations, not vermin, like their overgrown siblings.