Horde tactics for paladin

[DeadMoon]

So I'm running a vengeance paladin In a campaign right now, and as the title indicates, I have found myself feeling relatively weak in "horde" encounters, of which there have been several. I know this is an area of general weakness for the melee classes, but I wanted to know if there is any way to improve my effectiveness here. At level 9, destructive wave is a long ways off. I feel like spirit guardians should have been on the pally spell list, but alas. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Arkhios]

Divine Favor + Two-weapon fighting does help a little. Just spread your attacks between multiple targets, and each attack deals weapon+1d4 radiant damage (+strength for two main attacks).

[DeadMoon]

Ya, that's a good idea. I typically run sword and board, but I could carry another weapon for horde battles. Thanks.

[Arkhios]

Ya, that's a good idea. I typically run sword and board, but I could carry another weapon for horde battles. Thanks.

I've got that covered with my Paladin having Dual Wielder and Tavern Brawler feats.

Sword & Board, with the shield as an improvised off-hand weapon dealing 1d4 damage (depending on your DM, you could probably petition for higher die)

[DeadMoon]

Heh, that's interesting. I might think about that for my next feat.

[Vanderhaust]

Heh, that's interesting. I might think about that for my next feat.

Clear it with the DM, because per the PHB rules, a shield being used as an improvised weapon does not count for two weapon fighting or dual wielding

You may use your shield as an improvised weapon, but developers have already clarified that improvised weapons are not associated with two weapon fighting/dual wielder feat. Therefore it would be only used during your action, in which case swinging your sword would be much more preferred.

Personally, I think it is a mistake for a DM to allow a shield that provides +2 to AC to count for dual wielding to get both a bonus action off hand attack and an extra +1 to AC.

[Arkhios]

Clear it with the DM, because per the PHB rules, a shield being used as an improvised weapon does not count for two weapon fighting or dual wielding

You may use your shield as an improvised weapon, but developers have already clarified that improvised weapons are not associated with two weapon fighting/dual wielder feat. Therefore it would be only used during your action, in which case swinging your sword would be much more preferred.

Unless you can provide proof for that, I'll be taking your words with a grain, no a sack, of salt, and I'd advise all do the same. Just saying.


Personally, I think it is a mistake for a DM to allow a shield that provides +2 to AC to count for dual wielding to get both a bonus action off hand attack and an extra +1 to AC.

So, you're saying that if someone spent two (2) very valuable Ability Score Increases to get all that with two feats, they're getting too much? Are you seriously implying that compared to a total of raw potential +4 improvement to one or two ability scores is somehow less than single +1 improvement to one ability score of your choice, a +1 bonus to AC, and the ability to make sub-optimal attack with a shield as a bonus action? Oh, boy.

PS. I'm still waiting for a link (or if you can't post links, directions to find such a link myself) to prove the claim for developers having clarified anything regarding this matter.

[Corran]

So I'm running a vengeance paladin In a campaign right now, and as the title indicates, I have found myself feeling relatively weak in "horde" encounters, of which there have been several. I know this is an area of general weakness for the melee classes, but I wanted to know if there is any way to improve my effectiveness here. At level 9, destructive wave is a long ways off. I feel like spirit guardians should have been on the pally spell list, but alas. Any advice would be appreciated.
Give us some more info about your build.
Are you allowed to rebuild at least to some extent?


Unless you can provide proof for that, I'll be taking your words with a grain, no a sack, of salt, and I'd advise all do the same. Just saying.
''We apologize for the inconvenience Mr Wolfhammer, but your awesome idea of a build will now cease to function, due to the the stupid rules we added....'':smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

The bless spell and GWM, you should be able to squeeze out some BA attacks with smites and killing

[Arkhios]

''We apologize for the inconvenience Mr Wolfhammer, but your awesome idea of a build will now cease to function, due to the the stupid rules we added....'':smallbiggrin:

Oh, you! :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, I wonder if that really is backed up with official rule, and not just the reader's interpretation, I wonder what will happen to Mr Wolfhammer if my DM is still against the idea of rebuilds, and if that said DM would still follow that rule as the rumored clarification says. :smalleek:

[Corran]

Oh, you! :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, I wonder if that really is backed up with official rule, and not just the reader's interpretation, I wonder what will happen to Mr Wolfhammer if my DM is still against the idea of rebuilds, and if that said DM would still follow that rule as the rumored clarification says. :smalleek:
Meh, dont worry about it too much. I think there was something that prevented it to work exactly as you used it, but I honestly cant remember what it was. Whatever it was, it was probably one of those small things that get overlooked by everyone except the most fanatic rules lawyer. I half remember your build, and as far as I can remember it was not anything broken (powerful, but not in any rediculous way broken), so any reasonable DM would probably not have an issue. That said, if the DM takes an issue, offer them cookies before you discuss it with them, I've found it helps!
Edit: I remembered what it was. It is what the op says (I just had to read his post to remember it). It's true, unfortunately. Incredibly silly, but true. I guess it is impossible for me to hold two broken bottles, and twf with them. Yeah, totally breaks suspension of disbelief... These are indeed some silly rules.

@OP: If you can wait till level 12, you can get PAM (if you already dont have it) and also grab IDS along the way. This will boost your dpr significantly, even when you are up against hord, though nothing to lose your sleep over. If you really want to add some area damage and crowd control, then multiclassing might be the way to go. I have sorcerer in mind, though there may be other good options too (sorcerer will help with both crowd control and blast, among other things like increasing your defenses). It will not work straight away (sorc 3 and sorc 5 are key levels for crowd control and blasting respectively, but it will make you better eventually at the things you want. If you do decide to multiclass, paladin 9 is not a bad place to stop (personally, it is one of my favourite levels to halt my paladin levels when making multiclass builds).

[Spellbreaker26]

So I'm running a vengeance paladin In a campaign right now, and as the title indicates, I have found myself feeling relatively weak in "horde" encounters, of which there have been several. I know this is an area of general weakness for the melee classes, but I wanted to know if there is any way to improve my effectiveness here. At level 9, destructive wave is a long ways off. I feel like spirit guardians should have been on the pally spell list, but alas. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm not going to wiegh in on the improvised weapon thing, but here's what I think, as someone who plays a paladin.

In the same way Rangers are anti-horde Paladins are anti-single target. They are specifically designed to have low utility in horde encounters.

Therefore you should (in horde encounters) focus on being strategically useful, protecting the people who are anti-horde, such as casters. Prevent them from getting overwhelmed and then they can hit back. Hammer and Anvil.

[Spiritchaser]

Sorcadin is my answer to this...

The classic 6/14 is past, but that doesn't mean that a few levels won't help, and for the record (though probably not relevant) pally 11 or 12, sorc 8 or 9 (choice of extra ASI vs 5th level spells) is pretty awesome.

Also probably not relevant, with so few metamagic choices, but extended aura of vitality is mathematically hilarious

[DeathEatsCurry]

Play a Sorcadin with Fireball.

Or just accept not every class it good in every kind of encounters. Horde encounters the favored terrain of Wizards, Sorcerers and maybe certain Rangers. A properly built Paladin should at least be good at holding the line against a proper horde encounter via their high AC and staying power.

[BiPolar]

GWM and haste is a beautiful combination for hordes. If you can kill one enem,you, that's 4 attacks you get. Regular action attack, extra attack, haste action attack, No is action attack if you drop someone to 0/crit,.which you should be able to do.

[Vanderhaust]

Unless you can provide proof for that, I'll be taking your words with a grain, no a sack, of salt, and I'd advise all do the same. Just saying.



So, you're saying that if someone spent two (2) very valuable Ability Score Increases to get all that with two feats, they're getting too much? Are you seriously implying that compared to a total of raw potential +4 improvement to one or two ability scores is somehow less than single +1 improvement to one ability score of your choice, a +1 bonus to AC, and the ability to make sub-optimal attack with a shield as a bonus action? Oh, boy.

PS. I'm still waiting for a link (or if you can't post links, directions to find such a link myself) to prove the claim for developers having clarified anything regarding this matter.

I cannot post links, but I saw posts on the information by Jeremy Crawford on the Sage Advice website