How to use an exotic weapon.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Hey all, i was wondering something.
Usually, exotic weapons are just not worth the feat, they dont do anything special enough to justify the effort of wielding it.
But let's say that through DM rulings or approved homebrew, exotic weapons are something you would considder wielding, how would you fix the feat needed?

In 3.5 there was a dragon magazine with fighter variants in it wich included the Exoticist fighter. This variant gave up all martial proffieciencies in trade for 4 exotic proficiencies and the ability to pick a special action instead of a bonus feat.
There even was a prestige class called the exotic weapon master i think.

Is there such an archetype in pathfinder? something based around wielding odd weapons?

[weckar]

In 3.5 the much better alternative was a level of Warblade. Being able to wield a DIFFERENT exotic weapon every day made the feat much more worth it.

[Swaoeaeieu]

In 3.5 the much better alternative was a level of Warblade. Being able to wield a DIFFERENT exotic weapon every day made the feat much more worth it.

Ok sure, but why would you need to change your exotic weapon each day again? This is in the hypothetical case where you get an exotic weapon that is actually good to use :P

[Genth]

Kensai Magus: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/kensai/

I believe there are others of a similar bent, archetypes focused around a single weapon, but I can't find them right now

[Allanimal]

The DM for a game I play in has a house rule that lets us spend a couple skill points to get weapon proficiencies, like how you can spend them to learn languages.
Definitely better than spending a feat.

[Mendicant]

A trait seems like it'd be a better trade-off than a feat here, or a few skill points like Allanimal mentioned.

[Seerow]

If the DM is house ruling to make exotic weapons worth using, he should be making them worth a feat to pick up. Otherwise what's the point? You need to fix the effectiveness of the weapon or fix the method of picking it up, not both.

[Jay R]

Ok sure, but why would you need to change your exotic weapon each day again? This is in the hypothetical case where you get an exotic weapon that is actually good to use :P

So that you can use the +5 Keen Thundering Flaming Ghost Touch dwarven urgrosh you just found on your adventures, of course.

No matter how good your +3 Frost Shocking dire flail is, the new weapon might be better.

[Florian]

Usually, exotic weapons are just not worth the feat, they dont do anything special enough to justify the effort of wielding it.

I´d say that this only holds true for the low to mid level bracket. PF weapon-based classes being what they are, some weapons are next to the only way to upgrade a feat chain.

[TheIronGolem]

The DM for a game I play in has a house rule that lets us spend a couple skill points to get weapon proficiencies, like how you can spend them to learn languages.
Definitely better than spending a feat.

That is an excellent idea and I will never forgive myself for not having thought of it years ago.

[souridealist]

I always figured the point of exotic weapons was to get very good at a particular specialized maneuver - eg, pick up a swordbreaker dagger if you want to specialize in "oh, did you like that weapon?", or if you want to specialize in tripping so the rest of the party can get off a lovely selection of AOs, you have a bunch of different options there.

In Pathfinder, there's also a variety of different ways that you don't need a feat after all - monks get a few exotic weapons for free, and certain races get certain exotic weapons as martial weapons. For example, if you're an orc (or half-orc!), the orc double axe is a martial weapon.

[Gildedragon]

Cracked white pyramid iounstone
Import the A&EG's ioun blade, take away the +1 dagger... And it's a +2000gp weapon enhancement

+3500 to have any weapon be treated as "martial"

[Florian]

Why not simply use a rule that is already established and adapt it? Some races gain 1/4 of a weapon proficiency as their Fav. Class bonus. Simply make that into a common FCB that any race/class can use and you´re done.

[Pugwampy]

Dont forget the you can treat a one hand exotic weapon as a martial weapon if you hold it in both hands.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, there's also a variety of different ways that you don't need a feat after all - monks get a few exotic weapons for free, and certain races get certain exotic weapons as martial weapons. For example, if you're an orc (or half-orc!), the orc double axe is a martial weapon.

This, and certain races also just get a blank check proficiency for free too. For example, Half-Elf has the Ancestral Arms alternate racial, and Tengu have both Swordtrained and Exotic Weapons Training.

[Someguy231]

Dont forget the you can treat a one hand exotic weapon as a martial weapon if you hold it in both hands.

That's only for the Bastard Sword.

[Mendicant]

If the DM is house ruling to make exotic weapons worth using, he should be making them worth a feat to pick up. Otherwise what's the point? You need to fix the effectiveness of the weapon or fix the method of picking it up, not both.

I can see this approach working with certain exotic weapons where you're not just picking up a new weapon but an entire new idiosyncratic fighting style--the kusarigama for instance--but a bastard sword or some the other "it's just slightly better" weapons would be silly if they were ever improved enough to be worth a feat. Those should be scraped out of the "exotic" category and either bought with a lesser resource like skill points, or they should be gated with ability scores rather than spendable resources, like mighty composite bows are.

[Particle_Man]

That's only for the Bastard Sword.

And the Dwarven War Ax.

[Firechanter]

In PF, all that _some_ Exotic weapons have to offer is a slightly better combination of Damage die and Threat/Crit stats. Mostly it's just +1 point of average damage.

The uncrowned queen of 3.5 Exotic weapons, the Spiked chain, has been nerfed to hell and back in PF and is literally _worse_ than any Martial weapon.

The one "niche" for Exotic weapons that I have been able to make out is that Paizo authors really love to place them in Adventure Paths as loot -- as a rough estimate, well over 50% of magic weapons found in the first couple of parts of most APs seem to be Exotic. It's as if the authors wanted to say "You want a magic weapon, we make you bleed for it".
That might even be an arguable trade if the weapon types in question weren't usually so terribad. A Bastard Sword is kinda the best case scenario here -- all too often you get glorified toothpicks _without_ the option of wielding them as Martial weapons.

So all too often, the correct "use" of these weapons really is to pawn them at the first opportunity and hope to be able to buy something actually useful instead.

[Seerow]

I can see this approach working with certain exotic weapons where you're not just picking up a new weapon but an entire new idiosyncratic fighting style--the kusarigama for instance--but a bastard sword or some the other "it's just slightly better" weapons would be silly if they were ever improved enough to be worth a feat. Those should be scraped out of the "exotic" category and either bought with a lesser resource like skill points, or they should be gated with ability scores rather than spendable resources, like mighty composite bows are.

My point is, if you're going to give them away for skill points or whatever, it should be the sort of minimal upgrade they are currently.

The OP is saying his DM has some unspecified fix to make exotic weapons more awesome, and is looking for some way to cheese it to get the benefits his DM has houseruled in without actually paying the price intended for the new benefits. I disagree with this in principle.

[Mendicant]

The OP is saying his DM has some unspecified fix to make exotic weapons more awesome, and is looking for some way to cheese it to get the benefits his DM has houseruled in without actually paying the price intended for the new benefits.

I did not get that impression from the OP at all.

[Seerow]

I did not get that impression from the OP at all.


But let's say that through DM rulings or approved homebrew, exotic weapons are something you would considder wielding, how would you fix the feat needed?


Right here it's basically saying the DM is houseruling to make exotic weapons something he wants, and wants to know how to avoid the feat cost.

[Elkad]

Weapon Specialization for +2 dmg is deemed weak. Exotic weapons are generally weaker than that.

There are very few exotic weapons worth the feat.
Spiked Chain.
Kurisu Gama
Greathorn Minotaur Hammer. (the sidebar version, at 1d12/19-20/x4)
Dwarven Warpike for brace+trip+reach+2d6 damage

All the rest need something. A single die size increase, or one more point of critical range is not enough.
They need 2 die sizes, or a die and a threat increase, or a special ability, at a minimum.

A Medium Bastard sword at 1d10/18-20/x2 is better.
Dwarven Waraxe should be 1d12/x3 or 1d10/x4
Double weapons should be giving you full Str bonus on both ends. Exotic ones should be giving you 1.5xStr (and twohander Power Attack bonuses) on each end, or have a special ability tacked on as well.

[Swaoeaeieu]

The OP is saying his DM has some unspecified fix to make exotic weapons more awesome, and is looking for some way to cheese it to get the benefits his DM has houseruled in without actually paying the price intended for the new benefits. I disagree with this in principle.


I did not get that impression from the OP at all.


Right here it's basically saying the DM is houseruling to make exotic weapons something he wants, and wants to know how to avoid the feat cost.

actually, this was purely meant as a What If question. i have been looking into a custom weapons homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500649-Lemmy-s-Custom-Weapon-Generation-System) that might make exotic weapons fun to wield. Then i remembered the exoticist fighter from 3.5 and literaly wondered if something like that existed in pathfinder.

so no cheese intended, just wondering about how to get proficiencies in pathfinder ^^

[CockroachTeaParty]

The one "niche" for Exotic weapons that I have been able to make out is that Paizo authors really love to place them in Adventure Paths as loot -- as a rough estimate, well over 50% of magic weapons found in the first couple of parts of most APs seem to be Exotic. It's as if the authors wanted to say "You want a magic weapon, we make you bleed for it".
That might even be an arguable trade if the weapon types in question weren't usually so terribad. A Bastard Sword is kinda the best case scenario here -- all too often you get glorified toothpicks _without_ the option of wielding them as Martial weapons.

So all too often, the correct "use" of these weapons really is to pawn them at the first opportunity and hope to be able to buy something actually useful instead.

Yeah, AP's seem to have a thing for bastard swords. Bastard sword everywhere, all the time.

But yeah, if you simply need to use an exotic weapon of some kind, smart money is play a half-elf.

[Florian]

@Firechanter:

Rating exotic weapons in PF has more to do how the weapon is further supported instead of the base stats the weapon provides. A spiked chain on a kuthonite U-Monk or Warpriest gets ugly pretty fast due to Zon-Kuthon´s Flensing and Kyton Style, while a talon rodolero swashbuckler is a very decent TWF Sword-and-Board build right from the start.

It´s also the little things that often et overlooked. The very simple combat trait "Killer" gives the weapons´ crit mod as bonus precision damage. Very nasty with a x3 or x4 on TWF builds in the low level range brackets.