Potentially deadly encounters

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

TL;DR: I'm new and want to know if its bad manners to use a fight that has a high chance of killing a player

I'm a new 5e DM running a 5e game for new players. The group is large.

The party are in a campaign where the primary threat presented are fiends. They are a group of 6-8 (depending on attendance) level 2 PCs. Following the game's built in exp guidelines, if they're going up against just a single creature, it would take a creature of roughly CR 4 (1,100 exp) to create a medium challenge for them assuming 6 players. This encounter uses a single succubus and a couple of cr 1/4 weenies that will likely be killed before the succubus attacks.

That said, the succubus is going to have a circumstantial advantage. She'll start shapeshifted and try to lure a PC into kissing her. If the PC consents, they'll get Draining Kissed for an average of 32 psychic damage that also reduces their max hp, killing them if it hits 0.

Since nobody in my party has HP that high, this encounter presents a reasonable chance that a PC could be one-shot. Would using it be bad manners? Could it be made less bad manners if I throw in some kind of clue that the girl isn't what she seems? At what point in a game is it most appropriate to use encounters that have a high chance of killing a PC?

Also, on the off chance my players read these forums and one of you recognizes my avatar, if you report it to me and don't tell the other players I'll give you an inspiration point ;D

[Ninja_Prawn]

Normally, this sort of thing depends on the specifics of your group and what you have and haven't discussed before starting the campaign. For most groups, most of the time, the possibility of PC death should be on the table - if there's no chance of failure then there's no possibility of success - but in this specific case:


If the PC consents, they'll get Draining Kissed for an average of 32 psychic damage that also reduces their max hp, killing them if it hits 0.

Since nobody in my party has HP that high, this encounter presents a reasonable chance that a PC could be one-shot. Would using it be bad manners?

...there are a few problems.

Since this is likely to insta-kill a PC before the fight starts, it means that you'll then have a player sitting around doing nothing for the next... however long. That's not great, to say the least. Then there's the fact that it's practically scripted: even if you telegraph it, you'll likely have at least one PC whose personality demands that they accept the kiss. You're not really giving them a fair chance to avoid the death.

Even if you think you're giving them a fair chance by hinting that something's wrong or outright calling for an Insight check, you run into problems. First off you spoil the surprise, which will ruin some people's fun, and secondly you still end up with an uncomfortably railroady situation where you're basically saying to them "you know that there's something fishy going on here." I mean, there's only one course of action for the players once you've said that, right? Also, you risk making them overly paranoid in the future, but that's more of a long-term issue.
Another point: these are level 2 PCs. If they were level 5 this would be much less problematic because, by that point they'll likely have access to Revivify, which makes the encounter a lot more reasonable.

Finally, solo monsters tend not to make good combat encounters due to action economy and lack of control, so you might want to re-think the whole thing anyway. Imagine what will happen after the succubus kisses a PC... the other 7 will jump on her and beat her to death. Unless she can fly away, in which case you're basically saying "actually no, let's not have this encounter at all." It's hardly the most dynamic, exciting battle ever written.

[MrMcBobb]

I think it seems a little "cheap" myself. I love Succubi as an enemy but they are a little too powerful for that party I think. The best way to balance a large party is to have a large group of enemies, not the same number maybe, but certainly enough that they don't -

A) get one shot and insta-killed by the monster that hits too hard
B) gank it and murder it before it even gets an action
C) an unsatisfying and aggravating (for the guy who's now dead) combination of the two

Don't ignore the exp thing, but spread it out more evenly. Maybe have two "tough" enemies and then a spattering of mooks to distract.

I really like Succubi as semi-social encounter baddies, which it looks like you've set up really nicely, so maybe just hang off this encounter until maybe 3rd or 4th level (but give her better support/a quick escape option so she can pull the old hump and dump)

Also, I haven't got a book to hand but if someone is reduced to 0hp from the kiss are they not Dead? Never coming back, capital D, 6 feet under, adventure is over, roll another character Dead. That might annoy some players.

[Camman1984]

potentially deadly encounters is perfectly acceptable, I am running strahd and every fight seems that way right now,

but this seems like railroading, you might as well have numbered the players, rolled a dice and killed the one it picked, nobody likes that kind of thing.

it seems like a fun set up and I approve of the planning for a RP/combat trap, but maybe wait till they have a few more HP so the kiss leaves them crippled and wasting healing resourses, instead of writing a new character

[Ninja_Prawn]

Also, I haven't got a book to hand but if someone is reduced to 0hp from the kiss are they not Dead? Never coming back, capital D, 6 feet under, adventure is over, roll another character Dead.

Just double-checked the stat block and yes, this is the case. That's why I recommended waiting until Revivify is in play. Alternatively, give the cleric a Scroll of Revivify in their next treasure hoard.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

Just double-checked the stat block and yes, this is the case. That's why I recommended waiting until Revivify is in play. Alternatively, give the cleric a Scroll of Revivify in their next treasure hoard.

This seems like a good way to convey that RP scenarios can have deadly consequences and that scrolls are important party resources that can save lives in one go. I've actually got a good way to get a revivify scroll and enough other related stuff that it doesn't stand out too much into their hands coming up pretty soon. I'll foreshadow that a face-sucker might be around by having the players find the soul-drained husks of a few victims on her trail and have her story have an inconsistency or two that'll tip the players if they're paying attention. Worst case scenario, the players learn a valuable lesson about scrolls, best case scenario, they walk out of it with a safety net for player death that I think such a large group could benefit from anyway.

[Unoriginal]

Or you could make so the succubus has the Scroll of Revivify.


And she's ready to part with it if the PCs accept to help her with a liiiiiiiitle problem she has.

True, they won't have a long time to decide if they accept or not, if they want to save their friend, but eh, their party members are worth the troubles, aren't they?

[Sabeta]

Possibly: Just remove the instant-kill feature and you're done. Perhaps she got wounded by previous victims, the Cleric's God intervenes, or some other minor mcguffin as to why they're not instantly dead.

The Revivify scroll works well, but like Ninja said I don't imagine this being a particularly thrilling battle one way another. Leading up to an encounter with a Succubus and some mooks makes it seem like she'll get piled on and go down pretty fast. Especially with big parties, you need big groups.