Fighter help - possible multiclass

[Aett_Thorn]

Greetings all,

Sorry that this may be a long post, but I want to include some background information so that I can help you help me.

Background:I recently joined a campaign that a few of my friends were running, and was going to start out at level 5 to match the rest of them. We have a Valor Bard, a Sorc, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Since everyone else was a caster, the DM asked if I would mind being a martial class, especially if I could mix in some thieving skills. I didn't have a problem with that at the time, and created a Tiefling Battlemaster Fighter, Urban Bounty Hunter background, with the intent on creating a sort of Warlord-type character (taking Goading, Trip, and Rally for my maneuvers).

DM rolled my stats, and they ended up being pretty good. At level 5, I have 18 15 18 13 13, 14. I've been building him as a sword+board character, focusing on short rest abilities and tools. At level 6, I was going to take Inspiring Leader to help out the party and give us some temp HP at the start of the day, but after our last combat, our Sorc realized that he had that feat and should be using it (don't get me started on the other characters not using their class features and feats).

The problem: So I've been building a character that uses a decent amount of short rest-recharge abilities. However, the DM's philosophy on combat seems to be that they should all carry a risk of defeat or else they're not challenging. This usually means that the four casters use up most of their spells each combat, and we therefore take a long rest to get them back. This means that a lot of my SR features also come back, but I don't feel like the strength of my character really shines. Now, I know that this is kind of a DM issue, but I feel like since I'm joining their campaign part-way through, that I should just roll with it (especially since I have a lot of fun with them). However, I do want to try to take advantage of the board's expertise and try to build with this in mind going forward.

The ask: I'd like to try to build the character going forward in a possible better direction, and I'd like some help on my options, and which you think would be best. I'll probably go to Level 6 as a fighter to get the extra feat,and then multiclass if that is the recommendation.

Option 1: Keep going Battlemaster Fighter; use the next few feats to buff up Str and Con, and maybe pick up Shield Master/Heavy Armor Mastery along the way.

Option 2: Multiclass Paladin; continue with the Warlordy theme, and get some auras as we go. Plus I can use either Defense or Protection fighting styles.

Option 3: Multiclass Ranger (UA Ranger allowed); this would allow me to pick up a few handy tools that the party doesn't have a lot of, plus Hunter's Mark and the Defense fighting style.

Option 4: Multiclass Rogue; swap my trusty battleaxe for a scimitar, and get some sneak attack dice in there. Pick up a few extra skills and fun abilities on the way.

Option 5: Say screw it, and multiclass into a caster (probably Warlock). Still short-rest based, but would give me some decent options over time.



Any help on a direction here would be great.

[clash]

Those are some cray good stats, which opens up a lot of options. Here is what I would do though:

Talk to the dm, explain what is going on and see if he will go for one of the following options:
1. Change battle maneuvers to recover on long rest and double the number of superiority dice
2. Ask your dm if he will you a short rest points variant. Ie everyone gets 2 short rest points that they may use as an action to gain the benefits of a short rest.
3. Switch from battle master to EK as he is more long rest orientated.

If he wont go for any of those, then as a fighter with those stats you will probably always contribute well, but if you are looking for a little more then it depends what you want to do. It sounds like you want some party buffing kinda leader roll in which case I might recommend multiclassing bard. It will give you sore skills, tons of utility and inspiration. Kind of a cross between mcing rogue and warlock. And you always need to be careful mcing warlock anyways. It can be hard to work into a characters story without seeming forced.

[Sans.]

Just in general, I like multiclassing Eldritch Knight with Arcane Trickster of Ranger especially: weak spellcasting synergy and some nice features. However, for a Warlordy build, I would have said to go something like Lore Bard, except your Cha is a bit on the low side for a full caster. Honestly, your best bet might be Paladin: Bless + auras + smite = awesome.

[Specter]

Paladin is a better multiclass for casters; non-casters will have a very reduced pool of smites. I say goRanger, but no more than 4 levels. War Cleric is also a good option.

[Corran]

Option 5: Say screw it, and multiclass into a caster (probably Warlock). Still short-rest based, but would give me some decent options over time.

This. But not warlock. Warlock also relies on short rests to be effective, and he is not the ideal choice in your case for reasons gof group composition too. Instead, go sorcerer. With things like shield, blur, protecion from evil, mirror image (on top of blur if needed), and later with greater invisibility replacing blur, you will be able to hold your ground on the front line alone pretty well. Quickened helps with the ation econmy of the above, and also, in general. With careful, and spells like web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern (and later with some other spells too) and with a couple of other things, you will be able to confine the bad guys into fighting you, and thus you will protect your squishies. The sorcerer recovers things (sp, spell slots) on long rests, so you will start tailoring your build to being able to use resources faster for quick bursts off power, I mean your build will start changing to fit better the sleep schedule of the rest of the party. If you are not allowed to rebuild (which would be a godsent), go fighter 6 to pick warcaster (I assume you dont have it, if you have it, forget fighter 6, and start adding sorcerer levels asap), go fighter 6 to get warcaster, and after that all the way sorcerer. Obviously you pick the BB and GFB.

ps: what's your charisma?

[Citan]

Greetings all,

Sorry that this may be a long post, but I want to include some background information so that I can help you help me. We have a Valor Bard, a Sorc, a Wizard, and a Cleric.
I didn't have a problem with that at the time, and created a Tiefling Battlemaster Fighter, Urban Bounty Hunter background, with the intent on creating a sort of Warlord-type character (taking Goading, Trip, and Rally for my maneuvers).

DM rolled my stats, and they ended up being pretty good. At level 5, I have 18 15 18 13 13, 14.

Option 1: Keep going Battlemaster Fighter; use the next few feats to buff up Str and Con, and maybe pick up Shield Master/Heavy Armor Mastery along the way.

Option 2: Multiclass Paladin; continue with the Warlordy theme, and get some auras as we go. Plus I can use either Defense or Protection fighting styles.

Option 3: Multiclass Ranger (UA Ranger allowed); this would allow me to pick up a few handy tools that the party doesn't have a lot of, plus Hunter's Mark and the Defense fighting style.

Option 4: Multiclass Rogue; swap my trusty battleaxe for a scimitar, and get some sneak attack dice in there. Pick up a few extra skills and fun abilities on the way.

Option 5: Say screw it, and multiclass into a caster (probably Warlock). Still short-rest based, but would give me some decent options over time.

Any help on a direction here would be great.
Your stats are extremely great.
My gut would say go Rogue, possibly Arcane Trickster to get some magic to play with and invisible Magic Hand (you don't get better than that for Thievery).

Paladin is another very good choice, but as long as you can go up to level 6 for Aura of Protection. Everything else is frankly forgettable for you or maybe even straight loss.
- Divine Smite will be mostly useless because you won't get decent amount of slots on it.
- First lvl spells get several useful even with low stat. That is true. This is the only true benefit you get (especially Vengeance for HunterMark) before Aura (except Ancients, read below).
- Oath: Devotion not that interesting with +2, Vengeance provides very little value compared to a single level of Rogue + Shield Master, Ancients is forgettable in most occasions.
- Feat: Fighter nets you more.
- Extra Attack: 100% level wasted except if a) you really want to use a mount (Find Steed) b) you take Ancients Paladin (Moonbeam is a very nice control spells, Misty Step can be useful although weak compared to at-will Cunning Action).
- Aura of Protection.
- Aura of Warding.
My opinion on this: either dual class Paladin up to 7, or multiclass Paladin2/Warlock 1 and be done with it, or forget the whole idea.
Because while you are striving to get up to Paladin 6 (which will take a looooong time) you miss out on more manoeuvers, more feat, and 3rd extra attack.

Also, if don't know when your campaign will end, you may never reach your objective build. XD

Ranger is another good option with the UA version, because you get more spells that you can use in many occasions, especially some nobody else can get (except Bard sacrificing Magic Secrets): Goodberry (best "nutrition" spell), Ensnaring Strike (good use of your bonus action), Pass Without Trace (the spell that will change the life of whole party anytime sneaking is at least useful).

I would ask you to first consider...
a) How far you think you will go with this character
b) How high you want to be as Fighter (namely: do you want 3rd attack or more manoeuvers).

Let's say you will end as character level 12.
a) Keep 3rd attack = single level of Rogue.
b) Don't need 3rd attacks nor manoeuvers = you have 6 levels to play with.
1. Rogue 1 / Ranger 5: Expertise in Stealth and Athletics will make you the best ever: you shine at melee (Shield Master) and range (Archery Style) equally, and you cover most needs for travelling.

2. Rogue 1 / Moon Druid 5: use Wild SHape and Expertise Stealth to sneak into enemy base and find a good position, then create a diversion by wrecking around, casting Conjure Animals as you come out of Shape then bashing people around.

3. Paladin 6: as told (honestly, you should even drop Fighter 6 and get Ancients 7 instead, my opinion).

4. Rogue 2 / (Fiend or Fey) Warlock 2 / Paladin 2: you are the king of assassination, using free Disguise Self and/or Expertise Stealth to sneak around, Hexing people as needed to manipulate them, using occasional Sleep to bypass a troublesome guard and maybe killing an unconscious threat thanks to a critical Divine Smite...
Or rushing through enemies lines to reach an enemy you want to grapple and pull back, or unleashing an unsuspecting Burning Hands on that group of goblins that felt confident they would win because "hey he is alone we are 5". Rogue gives you stealth and mobility, Warlock 2 short rest slots for your smite spells or utility, Paladin 2 brings spells to use with.

Honestly, all are good, choose based on how "you" envision...
- Your relation with nature or religion.
- Your trends in alignement (yeah I know "everything can go", still, Evil Paladins and Lawful Warlocks are are fairly rare occurence in my experience. Could be a nice play though ^^).
- Your will to play with a specific feature/spell or not.

[Aett_Thorn]

Thanks for the help, all!

[Sagetim]

Well, first- definately hit fighter 6. The strength of fighter is that it gets the most ability score/feat choices of any class. Rogue is a close second. If you want to grab some casty things to play around with, I would suggest looking at your mental stats, and looking at Magic Initiate as a feat. One combo I go with consistently is Druid for Goodberry and two cantrips, like Druidcraft and Mending. If you want combat cantrips and have the wisdom to use them decently, then picking up Poison Spray (you're already in melee range) and Produce Flame are not bad options.

The reason I bring up cantrips is they scale with your total character level. So all those fighter levels? they count. They count for full. At level 6 you'll be getting those two dice of damage on damaging cantrips. And while you might get more raw damage out of hitting it with your axe, the cantrips are there to provide you with alternate damage type options. Poison, Fire, Force, Cold, Thunder, Psychic, Lightning, and so on are all options depending on the cantrips you pick out.

You can then proceed to continue leveling raw fighter and being better than everyone else at melee forever.

Another potential option is to pick up 3 to 5 levels of Rogue and go Assassin. Why Assassin? Because of the automatic critical when you attack an opponent who is surprised. So if you open the fight up with a surprise melee attack on someone, BAM, +2d6 sneak attack, which also gets doubled with any other damage dice you roll on the attack, because that's how criticals do in 5e. You can set yourself up with a longbow and potentially open fights up with a sneak attack from 300ft away (or 600 if you take the Sharpshooter feat, which also lets you power attack with ranged weapons). This provides you with versatility instead of focus, letting you never feel useless just because the targets are way outside melee range (or flying). And getting some more skill proficiencies, expertise, and cunning actions is never a bad thing. I say 3 to 5 because 3 nets you assassin, 4 gets you a feat/ability up, and 5 nets you that delicious extra die of sneak attack. And you might want to Rapier things instead of Scimitar, for a better damage die. But if you need to do slashing for some particular reason, Scimitar is probably your best bet.

Also, I just want to say that you don't need to worry too much about getting the most out of your short rest abilities as opposed to long rest. Most of your staying power as a fighter is built into your not-limited use abilities, like extra attack.

Oh, and another shenanigan you could get up to after taking Magic Initiate would be to take Spell Sniper and use it to pick up Eldritch Blast. Because the feat doesn't specify having to take a cantrip on your list or what have you. This lets you cherry pick eldritch blast without needing to lock the rest of the benefits from Magic Initiate into warlock stuff.

[Zene]

1) Mechanically, Rogue would synergize perfectly with Fighter; you'd be building your martial strength perfectly as you level with those always-increasing sneak attack dice. Going Arcane Trickster at 3 would start getting you some neat long-rest oriented tricks.

2) Thematically and fun-wise, Lore bard gives you a ton of neat tricks, and lots of long-rest spells for buffing/utility (so as not to overlap too much with your fighter side's "smack it with metal" approach, like a blaster caster class would).

Of the two, I'd vote bard. It seems to fit in well with your character concept, gives you lots of options (which you seem to like), and puts you in a great place to help the other party members shine.

I definitely would _not_ recommend warlock or any other blaster class, as it will step on the toes of your fighter abilities. In any given round, you can be an L6 fighter, or you can be an L_ warlock/sorc/wizard/etc, but in either case you'll be underpowered compared to your party members as they level. Better to go with the above options, and either continue to scale your martial abilities (rogue) or pick up out-of combat, bonus action, aoe, crowd control, and reaction tricks (bard). I also would not recommend paladin -- too much overlap with fighter. Same with the other martial and half-martial classes.

[Corran]

I definitely would _not_ recommend warlock or any other blaster class, as it will step on the toes of your fighter abilities.
(Emphasis added)
I dont think this is necessarily true.
From what I understand, the op's fighter is the only tank (probably also the only melee, or at least dedicated melee character -that means excluding hit-and-run characters- of the group). Dipping in sorcerer, would help him tremendously with tanking (you can profit a lot by having blur and the ability to spam shield on top of a good AC, if you are the one taking all/most of the hits). Moreover, he could get access to some control spells (like web), to use them so that he can do some crowd control and thus protect the casters of the group, assuming this is something his allies dont have already covered. Last but not least, it will give him access to more daily resources (sp, spell slots), and that will make him more in accordance with the ''sleeping'' schedule of his allies.

[Zene]

(Emphasis added)
I dont think this is necessarily true.
From what I understand, the op's fighter is the only tank (probably also the only melee, or at least dedicated melee character -that means excluding hit-and-run characters- of the group). Dipping in sorcerer, would help him tremendously with tanking (you can profit a lot by having blur and the ability to spam shield on top of a good AC, if you are the one taking all/most of the hits). Moreover, he could get access to some control spells (like web), to use them so that he can do some crowd control and thus protect the casters of the group, assuming this is something his allies dont have already covered. Last but not least, it will give him access to more daily resources (sp, spell slots), and that will make him more in accordance with the ''sleeping'' schedule of his allies.

Fair enough, a 1-level dip in wiz or sorc for shield, absorb elements, and possibly find familiar, could totally be worth it. But beyond that, each additional level will (IMO) cause him to fall behind party progression. He gets Blur, his party members are getting 5th-level spells. He gets Haste, his party members are getting 6th-level spells. And so on. Which could be ok, if he's focusing on buffs/aoes/crowd control. But hence my recommendation for Bard; it gets all that, plus lots of extra goodies (inspiration, cutting words, song of rest, jack of all trades, magical secrets). True, he could level in Sorc/Wiz/Warlock and just focus on those same types of spells, but (again IMO) the rest of the package on those classes is far less synergistic with his current class and party needs.

[Aett_Thorn]

Just to clarify, the cleric and the valor bard are also very much melee characters, though I am supposed to help try to protect them. The cleric is a Tempest cleric, so tends to blast and then wade into melee with us.

I've thought about going a few levels of Bard, but I don't want to step on the toes of the current Bard too much.

Probably leaning Ranger or Rogue for a few levels, and then going back to get my Fighter levels to 11 for that third attack. Thanks all!

[Gignere]

I would suggest War Cleric, maybe nab GWM at 6 and go two hander all the way. War Cleric will give you an on demand bonus action to use once per long rest, as well as +10 to hit to further offset the -5 with GWM. If and when you do need AC you can still S and B and add shield of faith for very high AC tanking.

Cleric can also help with crowds once you get 5 levels with spirit guardians.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I'm gonna side with those saying bard but i'll differ in which college. I'd say ask if other ua is up for the grabs, and if so try for College of Swords, College of Satire, College of Whispers.



Swords - a cool option that you can try to add some more versatility to your standard hack and slash. You get a bonus style (twf), a bonus action bonus to ac, a nice dagger throwing ability which you can use to trade one of your attacks for a quick and accurate throw, and a cool mercy ability not unlike the retribution paladin.
Satire - nets you those proficiencies that a rogue would have without having to dip rogue (though nothing wrong with that just not warlordy). YOU CAN TUMBLE. If you don't know tumbling is always good. If you have a free bonus action and need to get some where, its the bees nees. All the benefits of Dash, Disengage, Climb speed=move speed, half damage to falling. level 6 gets you a funny spell that might even help you in your endevours.
Whispers - If you want an extra 2d6 a turn this would be pretty good. it does however consume a BI die. You also gain some weird changling esq abilities at 3rd and 6th. Not sure how it flows with you character so i would recommend spending your other levels elsewhere unless you want it in which case GO FOR IT.


I highly recommend satire. Tumbling is good, the level 6th option is decent and you still get all the bardy base goodness.

[PeteNutButter]

Option 4: Multiclass Rogue; swap my trusty battleaxe for a scimitar, and get some sneak attack dice in there. Pick up a few extra skills and fun abilities on the way.


You are perfectly set up for the classic fighter/rogue shield master build.

This is your best bet, but don't bother with a scimitar. Rapier keeps your d8 damage die. Take the level 6 fighter for shield master, and make sure you get Riposte as a move (Ditch trip since its redundant w Shield Master). Since attacking on other peoples' turns allows for another sneak attack, Riposte is pure gold. Then take rogue and expertise in athletics for near permanent advantage, via shove prone before you attack.

From there you can just continue rogue since every other level adds 2d6 damage(1d6 on your turn and 1d6 when you riposte them on their turn). If you really want to overkill it, you can at some point take a single level in barbarian for rage advantage on that shove. The survivability wouldn't hurt either if your DM loves deadly fights.

If you can't get people to attack you to trigger your riposte, take sentinel as your next feat and force the issue.

I wouldn't get hung up on the fact that your abilities come back on a short rest. I'm sure it will come up occasionally, but overall if you ration your moves they should last one encounter. By ration my moves, I mean pretty much use riposte only. It's simple math really: most moves do something minor and add 1d8 to damage. Riposte gives you another whole attack, which you likely wouldn't normally have, can also use sneak attack dice, and still gets that +1d8 damage. It's way more bang for your buck.

Anyways that build keeps your flavor alive and stays true to the not having to be caster thing.