how does this spell work?

[Thac0 Redeye]

Hello all,
I'm looking at having our wizard cast "Arms a Plenty" from Lords of Madness pg209 on my Barbarian/Warhulk. I am not sure how to my attack progression will change with these 2 extra arms. The spell says they are 2 primary attacks and can be used in conjunction with your weapons attacks without penalty.
So currently I have TWF and Imp TWF and have a war ax in one hand and a morning star in the other. I am also a half minotaur and have a secondary attack with my horns. So my full attack is as follows: Ax +17, MS +17, Ax +12, MS +12, Horns +12. ( since I took Warhulk from Mini handbook I do not have more than a BAB 6- but I do have an insane STR mod.
When the spell is cast what will my new attack progression be?
thanks

[Bronk]

Long story short, you would have your two new claw attacks go at the same time and same attack bonus as your horns, but I'm also pretty sure that your main TWF attack routine isn't right. I would have to know your BAB, strength bonus, and masterwork or enhancement status of your weapons to be sure, but all things being equal, with your feats, the offhand weapon should be 2 lower than the main hand weapon.

[Thac0 Redeye]

Why? the spell considers the claw attacks as primary not secondary as the horns are. also how am I doing my current attack wrong?

[sleepyphoenixx]

According to the spell you would add two claw attacks at +19 to your full attack.

That's not how natural attacks normally function (you can't make primary natural attacks with iteratives, they become secondaries at -5), but specific trumps general.


Long story short, you would have your two new claw attacks go at the same time and same attack bonus as your horns,
Normally, but the spell overrides that by making them primary attacks. They don't even take TWF penalties.


but I'm also pretty sure that your main TWF attack routine isn't right. I would have to know your BAB, strength bonus, and masterwork or enhancement status of your weapons to be sure, but all things being equal, with your feats, the offhand weapon should be 2 lower than the main hand weapon.
Main hand and off hand penalties are equal when TWFing if you have the feat.

The attack routine is Claw/claw(both at full ab), ax/ms (both at full ab -2), ax/ms (at full ab - 7), horns (at ab -5).
Edit: Correction - since the offhand is not light the ax/ms attacks are at -4/-9 respectively.

[Venger]

Hello all,
I'm looking at having our wizard cast "Arms a Plenty" from Lords of Madness pg209 on my Barbarian/Warhulk. I am not sure how to my attack progression will change with these 2 extra arms. The spell says they are 2 primary attacks and can be used in conjunction with your weapons attacks without penalty.
So currently I have TWF and Imp TWF and have a war ax in one hand and a morning star in the other. I am also a half minotaur and have a secondary attack with my horns. So my full attack is as follows: Ax +17, MS +17, Ax +12, MS +12, Horns +12. ( since I took Warhulk from Mini handbook I do not have more than a BAB 6- but I do have an insane STR mod.
When the spell is cast what will my new attack progression be?
thanks

1) you take your normal attack routine which is apparently 1 attack from BA. this attack is at -4 since you're twfing with a onehanded weapon in your offhand
2) add one extra attack from two-weapon fighting with your morningstar which I assume is your offhand weapon (why? you're imposing unnecessary penalties on yourself, use a light weapon in your off hand) at -4 (it would be -2 with a light offhand weapon)
3) add in an extra attack with the morningstar from imp two weapon fighting at -9
4) add in your 2 claw attacks from arms of plenty at your full attack bonus with no penalty. if you hit with both of them, deal rend damage.
3) add in your gore as your secondary natural attack at -5

in total, you have:
1 ax
2 morningstar
2 claw
1 gore

for 6 attacks total.

in any event, your attack routine is wrong. twf only gives an extra attack with your off hand, and war hulks should be thfing, not twfing, you're not taking full advantage of your str modifier this way.


Main hand and off hand penalties are equal when TWFing if you have the feat.

The attack routine is Claw/claw(both at full ab), ax/ms (both at full ab -2), ax/ms (at full ab - 7), horns (at ab -5).
Edit: Correction - since the offhand is not light the ax/ms attacks are at -4/-9 respectively.

imp TWF only gives 1 extra attack a round, not 1 extra attack with each iterative.

[Bronk]

I wouldn't want to nerf the spell or anything, but even if the claw attacks were primary to start with, wouldn't they automatically be downgraded to secondary when mixed with iteratives?

Edit: Ah, I missed the 'without penalty' line from further down.

[sleepyphoenixx]

imp TWF only gives 1 extra attack a round, not 1 extra attack with each iterative.

I'm aware. OP said he has BAB 6, so he gets two attacks with his main hand normally.

[Venger]

I'm aware. OP said he has BAB 6, so he gets two attacks with his main hand normally.

oh, ok, the / represented you weren't sure which weapon the main one was, not that he got one with each. that makes sense.

[Thac0 Redeye]

1) you take your normal attack routine which is apparently 1 attack from BA. this attack is at -4 since you're twfing with a onehanded weapon in your offhand
2) add one extra attack from two-weapon fighting with your morningstar which I assume is your offhand weapon (why? you're imposing unnecessary penalties on yourself, use a light weapon in your off hand) at -4 (it would be -2 with a light offhand weapon)
3) add in an extra attack with the morningstar from imp two weapon fighting at -9
4) add in your 2 claw attacks from arms of plenty at your full attack bonus with no penalty. if you hit with both of them, deal rend damage.
3) add in your gore as your secondary natural attack at -5.

Ok I did forget to mention that I do also have the feat oversized two weapon fighting from CAdv. So the off hand acts like a light weapon for the penalty adjust.

so what I'm understanding is I'd have
17 ax
17 ms
19 claw
19 claw
12 ax
12 ms
12 horn
right?

[sleepyphoenixx]

oh, ok, the / represented you weren't sure which weapon the main one was, not that he got one with each. that makes sense.

He does get one with each because he has BAB +6 for two attacks with his main hand.

Main hand at -4/-9 (BAB +6)
Off hand at -4 (TWF)/-9 (ITWF)
2 claw attacks at full AB (Arms of Plenty)
Horns at -5 (secondary natural)

So his full attack routine is claw +0/claw +0/main hand -4/off hand -4/main hand -9/off hand -9/horns -5. It's just sorted by attack bonus instead of by weapon, with secondary naturals last.
Or, to put it into the stat block format: claw +0/+0 and main hand -4/-9 and off hand -4/-9 and horns -5.

[Thac0 Redeye]

in any event, your attack routine is wrong. twf only gives an extra attack with your off hand, and war hulks should be thfing, not twfing, you're not taking full advantage of your str modifier this way.


I choose twf because if I attack 4 times at std Str mod vs. 2 times at 1.5 Str mod I'd do more damage. also I can enhance each weapon with different things. ie. the ax has wounding and fire / the ms has holy and acid. so I have a chance to effect different types of creatures. so undead won't take wounding but will take holy etc. Add that to the warhulk feature of hitting 3 adjacent enemies with one swing.
I thought it was more rounded chara.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I choose twf because if I attack 4 times at std Str mod vs. 2 times at 1.5 Str mod I'd do more damage. also I can enhance each weapon with different things. ie. the ax has wounding and fire / the ms has holy and acid. so I have a chance to effect different types of creatures. so undead won't take wounding but will take holy etc. Add that to the warhulk feature of hitting 3 adjacent enemies with one swing.
I thought it was more rounded chara.

Attacks with your off hand only get 1/2 strength bonus.
Also, if you use Power Attack a two-handed weapon gets x2 bonus, a weapon in one hand gets x1 or nothing if it's light.
Since not using a light weapon in your offhand gets you an extra -2 on all your weapon attacks people avoid that.

And that's why strength builds do better with two-handed weapons.

[Bronk]

I choose twf because if I attack 4 times at std Str mod vs. 2 times at 1.5 Str mod I'd do more damage. also I can enhance each weapon with different things. ie. the ax has wounding and fire / the ms has holy and acid. so I have a chance to effect different types of creatures. so undead won't take wounding but will take holy etc. Add that to the warhulk feature of hitting 3 adjacent enemies with one swing.
I thought it was more rounded chara.

If your weapons have those properties, they should be at least +1 weapons as well.

If so, that'll throw off your numbers too (we don't know where all your bonuses are coming from).

[Thac0 Redeye]

Attacks with your off hand only get 1/2 strength bonus.


where are you seeing this rule. I just checked the PH again and cannot find anything like this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

where are you seeing this rule. I just checked the PH again and cannot find anything like this.

The combat rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#strengthBonus).

[Thac0 Redeye]

The combat rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#strengthBonus).
huh....well what do you know, we've been doing that wrong for over a decade.
so looking at that the only difference in overall damage is when you do a power attack. I get your point. well maybe on my next fighter type build ill do that. (personally I don't find myself using PA much. I probably should use it more.
Thanks to everyone for your help.

[Venger]

Ok I did forget to mention that I do also have the feat oversized two weapon fighting from CAdv. So the off hand acts like a light weapon for the penalty adjust.

so what I'm understanding is I'd have
17 ax
17 ms
19 claw
19 claw
12 ax
12 ms
12 horn
right?

Ok, then that accounts for that.

I don't know, I have no idea what your bonuses are coming from so I don't know whether your math is right.

Could you provide a source for where you're getting these numbers? What's your ba, your str, your enhancement bonus to each weapon, etc.


He does get one with each because he has BAB +6 for two attacks with his main hand.

Main hand at -4/-9 (BAB +6)
Off hand at -4 (TWF)/-9 (ITWF)
2 claw attacks at full AB (Arms of Plenty)
Horns at -5 (secondary natural)

So his full attack routine is claw +0/claw +0/main hand -4/off hand -4/main hand -9/off hand -9/horns -5. It's just sorted by attack bonus instead of by weapon, with secondary naturals last.
Or, to put it into the stat block format: claw +0/+0 and main hand -4/-9 and off hand -4/-9 and horns -5.

This is all correct. If you apply these mods to whatever your full attack bonus is, Thac0 Redeye, you'll have the right figures.


I choose twf because if I attack 4 times at std Str mod vs. 2 times at 1.5 Str mod I'd do more damage. also I can enhance each weapon with different things. ie. the ax has wounding and fire / the ms has holy and acid. so I have a chance to effect different types of creatures. so undead won't take wounding but will take holy etc. Add that to the warhulk feature of hitting 3 adjacent enemies with one swing.
I thought it was more rounded chara.
You are forgetting to add the damage from power attack into the equation. without a source of precision damage, thfing is always better than twfing numberswise.

enhancing each weapon with different things means spending twice as much on weapon enhancements


Attacks with your off hand only get 1/2 strength bonus.
Also, if you use Power Attack a two-handed weapon gets x2 bonus, a weapon in one hand gets x1 or nothing if it's light.
Since not using a light weapon in your offhand gets you an extra -2 on all your weapon attacks people avoid that.

And that's why strength builds do better with two-handed weapons.

This is also worth taking into consideration

[Bronk]

Ok I did forget to mention that I do also have the feat oversized two weapon fighting from CAdv. So the off hand acts like a light weapon for the penalty adjust.

so what I'm understanding is I'd have
17 ax
17 ms
19 claw
19 claw
12 ax
12 ms
12 horn
right?

If you're using magic weapons to reach your max attack bonus of +19, your new claws aren't going to match that.

If you want any kind of final answer to your question, you're going to need to post the full deal with your character.