Vengeance Paladin Advice

[SatireBardIRL]

TL;DR: What is the best stat point buy and weapon setup for a single-class vengeance paladin for a level 1-10 campaign?

I am creating a vengeance paladin for a campaign that will likely go until around level 10. We will be playing mostly RAW with no flanking, and the DM has made it clear that great weapon fighting rerolls will not apply to divine smite. My basic character concept is that some evildoers killed someone close to my character and his goals are to avenge her death and eventually find a way to resurrect her.

What is the best way to handle point buy (standard 27 points)? I will probably go Half Elf, but I'm open to other races. I know priority for a STR paladin is STR>CHA>CON, but is it better to go like 14/10/14/10/10/14, 15/8/15/8/8/15, 15/10/13/10/10/14, etc?

I am also having trouble deciding on what weapon setup to use. Basically, I am trying to figure out the best build I can go without multiclassing. I am debating between sword and board, great weapon, and polearm. As I see it, here are the pros/cons of each:

S&B
Pros:

+2 AC compared to 2H builds
Not feat dependent
Decent damage due to dueling fighting style, divine smite, and spells

Cons:

Lower damage than other options
Doesn't seem to fit vengeance thematically
Doesn't take advantage of Vow of Enmity and other vengeance features as much as the other builds


GW
Pros:

Higher damage
Great synergy with Enmity due to -5atk/+10dmg bonus from Great Weapon Master

Cons:

Squishier due to lack of shield
A lot of paladin damage comes from divine smite and spells, which do not benefit from increased weapon damage


Polearm
Pros:

Battlefield control and extra opportunity attacks
Makes excellent use of Relentless Avenger

Cons:

Also squishier than S&B due to lack of shield
The extra attack from Polearm Mastery requires using your bonus action, which can be put to great use in other ways
This build is extremely feat dependent (GWM, Polearm Master, Sentinal...), which can be an issue since paladins are MAD


Am I missing anything? Is it important to have high weapon damage since spell slots are limited, or does most of your damage come from smites/spells anyway? Overall, which option is the best? I have never played paladin before, so advice from experienced players is appreciated. Thanks!

Edit: Some info added about backstory, DM style, and not multiclassing.

[BiPolar]

Any houserules like flanking? What's the rest of your party? More combat or roleplay at your table?

[Mortis_Elrod]

Well paladin is very cool class, lots of flavor, damage, and possibilities. First question you need to answer is what kind of character are you playing. Obviously some sort of vengeance paladin, but even those come in all shapes and sizes and colors and stuff. I could spit out like 5 different builds right now but none are gonna be helpful if you don't have a character concept in mind. If you're looking for nothing but optimization (for dmg/tankyness/versatility) then you should look at some of the paladin guides here, Especially the Sorcadin ones (though almost all of them become sorcadins)

Edit: I'm not sure what you're looking for when it comes to the 'best' build. Try to keep in mind that 5e is designed in a way that even less optimized combos can be viable. (like in another thread, someone mentioned a lizardfolk bladelock. I NEED to make one now.)

[Ultra4Life]

I'm personally fairly fond of Dex vengeance paladins. I just find the increased ability to sneak around and stalk your enemies to be fairly cool. That being said, for a Str Vengeance Paladin I'd probably pre-racial go:

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14

And put the two +1's into Str and Con to get 16 Str, 14 Con, and 16 Cha (a good start to any Paladin). For half-elf skills I think Investigation or Survival are good choices (possibly both). Beyond that Insight and Perception. Beyond obvious uses I like those four skills since it builds a character who makes sure his enemies are guilty before enacting vengeance on them. Which I like. Other than that, Intimidation is pretty useful, or possibly Persuasion.

As for weapon type, I'll agree that Vengeance and Great Weapon go together pretty well. For one if you're using - say - a greatsword there's less of that fridge moment of "wait where do I put my weapon when I'm not using it?". Polearms are too long to carry on your back for the most part. I like worrying about stuff like that, but it's not necessary. And in either case "Squishier due to lack of shield" is less important because of the word "Paladin" at the top of your sheet. Even with two less AC you're still tough, have Lay on Hands, and can pack Cure Wounds for further survival. Plus if there's someone who can slap Shield of Faith on you it helps even more.

That being said you can still roll Sword and Board with the Dueling style. In that case you can flavor it less as "defender of others" etc and more of "Reducing the ability of the guilty to fight back and stop me before I make them pay of their misdeeds". Can't enact vengeance with a severed jugular after all.

[Sans.]

I love Polearm Mastery because the bonus attack can also RAW have the -5/+10 from GWM applied to it. That said, I'd commit to the feats with Variant Human, going 15, 8, 14, 10, 8, 15 and putting the +1s in the 15s.

[SatireBardIRL]

Any houserules like flanking? What's the rest of your party? More combat or roleplay at your table?

No flanking. We are playing RAW for the most part. The DM did say that she is siding with sage advice about divine smite not benefiting from the rerolls from GW fighting style. As for party comp, I'm not exactly sure but there will likely be 5 other party members, 1 of which will be a fighter and 1 of which will be a ranger. Not sure about the others. We generally focus more on combat, but I am going to try to emphasize roleplay in this campaign (at least for my character) because I have an interesting backstory in mind.


Well paladin is very cool class, lots of flavor, damage, and possibilities. First question you need to answer is what kind of character are you playing. Obviously some sort of vengeance paladin, but even those come in all shapes and sizes and colors and stuff. I could spit out like 5 different builds right now but none are gonna be helpful if you don't have a character concept in mind. If you're looking for nothing but optimization (for dmg/tankyness/versatility) then you should look at some of the paladin guides here, Especially the Sorcadin ones (though almost all of them become sorcadins)

Edit: I'm not sure what you're looking for when it comes to the 'best' build. Try to keep in mind that 5e is designed in a way that even less optimized combos can be viable. (like in another thread, someone mentioned a lizardfolk bladelock. I NEED to make one now.)

The general concept of my backstory is that some evildoers killed someone close to my character and his goals are to avenge her death and eventually find a way to resurrect her. An important part of it is that my character himself cannot be the one to perform the resurrection. He is not skilled enough in magic to do so. I will probably make it a secret character mission to find a diamond and high level cleric to perform a resurrection spell. Pretty basic, but I have other details in mind. I just don't want to go into detail because I am still debating certain parts of the story and I don't want any party members stumbling across it on this forum (spoilers) :P

As for the build, I basically want to have a build that is as optimized as possible without multiclassing.



And put the two +1's into Str and Con to get 16 Str, 14 Con, and 16 Cha (a good start to any Paladin). For half-elf skills I think Investigation or Survival are good choices (possibly both). Beyond that Insight and Perception. Beyond obvious uses I like those four skills since it builds a character who makes sure his enemies are guilty before enacting vengeance on them. Which I like. Other than that, Intimidation is pretty useful, or possibly Persuasion.

As for weapon type, I'll agree that Vengeance and Great Weapon go together pretty well. For one if you're using - say - a greatsword there's less of that fridge moment of "wait where do I put my weapon when I'm not using it?". Polearms are too long to carry on your back for the most part. I like worrying about stuff like that, but it's not necessary. And in either case "Squishier due to lack of shield" is less important because of the word "Paladin" at the top of your sheet. Even with two less AC you're still tough, have Lay on Hands, and can pack Cure Wounds for further survival. Plus if there's someone who can slap Shield of Faith on you it helps even more.

That being said you can still roll Sword and Board with the Dueling style. In that case you can flavor it less as "defender of others" etc and more of "Reducing the ability of the guilty to fight back and stop me before I make them pay of their misdeeds". Can't enact vengeance with a severed jugular after all.

Thanks for the advice! I will definitely pick up Perception. You make a lot of good points.


I love Polearm Mastery because the bonus attack can also RAW have the -5/+10 from GWM applied to it. That said, I'd commit to the feats with Variant Human, going 15, 8, 14, 10, 8, 15 and putting the +1s in the 15s.

I didn't even think about the -5/+10 on the bonus attack. That's kind of amazing. Is it viable to go Polearm if we are only playing until level 10? Seems like I need 2-3 feats to get going.

[PeteNutButter]

I didn't even think about the -5/+10 on the bonus attack. That's kind of amazing. Is it viable to go Polearm if we are only playing until level 10? Seems like I need 2-3 feats to get going.

PAM by itself is amazing. It says, "Hey I get a third attack every round and sometimes I get a free reaction attack." If you go PAM take defense fighting style to split the difference in AC of not having a shield.

Definately dump off stats for at least two 16s to start. I typically build my paladins with a 16 in str and cha and keep wisdom at 10 for saves, 14 con of course.

Variant Human, PAM to start, pump str at 4, and then GWM at level 8. I'd do it that way since having only +0 to hit with GWM at level 4 is just frustrating. Mathematically it's not even that good at lower levels, linearly its trash, since you can't count on hitting. You have to be smart about it too... I see a lot of players "mashing that GWM button" missing for 3 rounds and then exploding something that had 5 hit points.

[Ultra4Life]

Another point in PAM's favor (though I personally prefer either Sword and Board or Great Weapon for my Paladins, it's not my character and you should be as informed as possible when making your decisions about your character) is that it's a third chance to attack each round. That should sound obvious, but it's really nice for paladins since it's a third chance to fish for a natural 20. As I love to remind people: Divine Smite is activated when you HIT, not when you attack. And since you can't know if you hit until after rolling and seeing the number, if you see a natural 20 you can go "Sweet Divine Smite time". And then remember how in 5e ALL damage dice are multiplied on a critical hit. So now that minimum of +2d8 is +4d8 for a first level spell slot.

[SatireBardIRL]

Variant Human, PAM to start, pump str at 4, and then GWM at level 8. I'd do it that way since having only +0 to hit with GWM at level 4 is just frustrating. Mathematically it's not even that good at lower levels, linearly its trash, since you can't count on hitting. You have to be smart about it too... I see a lot of players "mashing that GWM button" missing for 3 rounds and then exploding something that had 5 hit points.

If going variant human but taking ASI at 4, wouldn't it be better to go half-elf for the racial bonuses and pick up PAM at 4 instead? That way you get the same number of stats, darkvision, fey ancestry, etc. and only miss out on PAM levels 1-3. Is having PAM 1-3 that important? Or am I missing something?

[PeteNutButter]

If going variant human but taking ASI at 4, wouldn't it be better to go half-elf for the racial bonuses and pick up PAM at 4 instead? That way you get the same number of stats, darkvision, fey ancestry, etc. and only miss out on PAM levels 1-3. Is having PAM 1-3 that important? Or am I missing something?

+2 str

You can't start higher than a 16 either way. Half-elf nets you 2 con, not an 18 str. Str is huge when you are considering GWM, since you need all the + to hit you can get.

[SatireBardIRL]

+2 str

You can't start higher than a 16 either way. Half-elf nets you 2 con, not an 18 str. Str is huge when you are considering GWM, since you need all the + to hit you can get.

Ah. That makes sense. Excuse my noobness XD

[Ultra4Life]

Also probably an important question (or questions): How attached are you to being a Half-Elf? Theoretically a PAM Paladin can be perfectly functional with Half-Elf or Human variant, but if you like being a Half-Elf then that'll change things. Similarly your general concept is also important to consider. Do you see your Paladin as being clumsy and somewhat impulsive/lacking in common sense (low dex and wisdom)? If so the version Pete suggested is pretty good. On the contrary if you like a more even tempered Paladin who's either average or above average in most categories, then the one I suggested might fit you more. Neither selection is wrong or right, but keep it in mind.

So with that in mind if you went a Half-Elf with PAM you could use the same stats as suggested and pick up PAM at level 4, and then use the rest of your ASI's to bump your Str and Cha to 20. Alternatively at a higher level you could use one of your ASI's that would go into Cha to pick up Great Weapon Master. It'll limit you to 18 Cha, but that's not a gigantic thing. I generally value getting a 20 Str on a Paladin over getting maxed Cha.

[PeteNutButter]

Ah. That makes sense. Excuse my noobness XD

Also the 7th level vengeance ability works very nicely with PAM.

[Ultra4Life]

Side note, while I still from a personal subjective standpoint prefer Sword and Board over Polearms for a Paladin, from a mechanical standpoint I am now converted to the stance of Polearm Master being the fighting style that gives the biggest (or at least one of the biggest) bang for your buck when making a Vengeance Paladin. For reasons completely unrelated to just realizing how well Relentless Avenger and Polearm Master go together. And I am certainly not ashamed for having never realized that up until that point, who gave you that idea? You're crazy.

[BiPolar]

The difference between PAM and S&B is also one of tankiness. Paladins are NOT tanks - they can be and are relatively sturdy, but they are damage dealers. S&B makes you more tanky, PAM/GWM make you a better damage dealer.

Quick Question: Do you know if your DM has creatures run away? My doesn't, and that's left me without the use of a reaction in nearly every battle.

[SatireBardIRL]

The difference between PAM and S&B is also one of tankiness. Paladins are NOT tanks - they can be and are relatively sturdy, but they are damage dealers. S&B makes you more tanky, PAM/GWM make you a better damage dealer.

Quick Question: Do you know if your DM has creatures run away? My doesn't, and that's left me without the use of a reaction in nearly every battle.

I'm not sure what her DM style is because it will be her first time as a DM. She has a lot of experience as a player though and we have discussed certain relevant things like GWF rerolls not applying to divine smite, etc. No idea if she will have enemies run though.

I'm leaning toward a PAM build after reading this thread. PAM would give me more opportunities to use reactions. I guess that's another thing to consider.

[BiPolar]

I'm not sure what her DM style is because it will be her first time as a DM. She has a lot of experience as a player though and we have discussed certain relevant things like GWF rerolls not applying to divine smite, etc. No idea if she will have enemies run though.

I'm leaning toward a PAM build after reading this thread. PAM would give me more opportunities to use reactions. I guess that's another thing to consider.

That's mostly where I was going with that :) It also gives you another Bonus Action option. If you end up with GWM as well, you can either choose to PAM bonus action for more damage, GWM bonus action after a kill/crit, OR cast one of your bonus action spells. Nothing really competes and you've got some options.

edit: in addition, Hunters Mark isn't really your friend. It's a bonus action to move it, and your bonus actions are generally better spent (PAM/GWM).

[SatireBardIRL]

Hunters Mark isn't really your friend. It's a bonus action to move it, and your bonus actions are generally better spent (PAM/GWM).

That's what I figured. HM costs a bonus action and does less damage than a divine smite (especially when you factor in the loss of bonus action attacks) unless the fight goes on for a while. I doubt I will get any value out of HM until level 5, and even then it's probably only worth it vs strong enemies.

[BiPolar]

That's what I figured. HM costs a bonus action and does less damage than a divine smite (especially when you factor in the loss of bonus action attacks) unless the fight goes on for a while. I doubt I will get any value out of HM until level 5, and even then it's probably only worth it vs strong enemies.

At that point, it REALLY isn't worth it. You'll be doing enough damage through your bonus actions of GWM or PAM that spending the action to move it doesn't work. Unless you think they're gonna run - then being able to mark them to track them is big.

[Biggstick]

I might be alone in this, but I always end up wanting to build my Vengeance Paladins as tanks that use a shield. The main reason is I don't want to ever fail my Concentration checks when I have Haste on myself. I usually look to have 18 Str, 14-18 Cha, and Resilient Con in the build.

It might not include the best use of Bonus actions, but you do have a decent number available with the Channel Divinity, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon, and Misty Step.

I don't remember who posted it above, but they were right on when they called Paladins damage dealers. Especially Vengeance Paladins. You have a ton of damage potential already built into the the class that you don't really need to do all that much with your ASI progression. I look to shore up my Paladin's defenses with my ASI's, as I prefer to build up the weaknesses I perceive they have rather then building up their offensive strengths.