Question on warlock Patrons

[ChellGame]

Hey guys, just a quick question on warlock patrons.

I'm working on setting up high level monsters that act as patron for warlocks in a setting I'm going to run for a new campaign and was wondering how powerful a creature should be before it can grant powers to a warlock. The Pacts in the player's handbook seem to imply that most warlock patron are very high level. (I'm imagining CR 18+ for Archfey, Archfiends and even higher for Great Old Ones) would you stick to only using high level creature for Warlock patrons in your campaign or would you allow creatures of lower CR (Succubus for Fiend pact, Unicorn for Fey pact for example) to be warlock Patrons. The Former method seems to keep Warlock patron very distant for their Locks and makes them feel like more Deities in the way they interact with them, but on the plus side makes being a warlock feel like something rarer or difficult to acquire (Maybe with a set list of potential patron similar to deities), while the latter feels like it allows the warlock to actually have a mentor/master with whom they can interact with in the world and can request task/favors from the PC in return from there power (in this set up the player is also far more likely to be able to outgrow/overpower and confront their patrons in the campaign).

What method would use for your campaign and why? (I don't feel there a "cannon" answer for this as the different pacts in PHB/SCAG/UA seem to imply different min. power levels for the patrons.)

If you use the latter method with lower CR creature able to become patrons, what do you think is the minimum possible CR/other factor that should be used for determining how powerful a patron should be in order to grant warlock powers?

Thanks,
Chell

[Ultra4Life]

I would probably shy away from a Patron having stats at all. Main reason is "Why?". Are you planning to have the players fight the patrons, and if so what'll happen to a warlock player with that patron when they die? To me that seems like a recipe for disaster.

And if their stats don't matter, then again why stat them out in the first place?

That all being said I definitely think they should be CR 18+. Main reason is the belief that a being providing powers to a PC should be at least as powerful as said PC and being CR 18+ covers that fairly well (and should likely be a legendary creature). Imagine something about as powerful as a 5e Lich and that's probably about how powerful a patron likely is. In fact I think in SCAG Liches are called out as one possible patron for the Undying pact. And remember, even one that powerful can still interact with the PC without doing spotlight stealing stuff. Why doesn't the arch-devil just obliterate the enemy himself? Well because he made a pact with you so he wouldn't have to chucklehead. Or maybe it's like a chess game to them. Plus they can use proxies, or maybe they show up in disguise to see how you're doing without risking you just sucking up to them.

And with THAT being said if you do use a weaker creature, possibly make that a big deal. And arch-fiend may be able to make a pact with a warlock without any real ding in their power, but a succubus doing so might be a sign of extreme desperation.

[ChellGame]

I would probably shy away from a Patron having stats at all. Main reason is "Why?". Are you planning to have the players fight the patrons, and if so what'll happen to a warlock player with that patron when they die? To me that seems like a recipe for disaster.

And if their stats don't matter, then again why stat them out in the first place?

That all being said I definitely think they should be CR 18+. Main reason is the belief that a being providing powers to a PC should be at least as powerful as said PC and being CR 18+ covers that fairly well (and should likely be a legendary creature). Imagine something about as powerful as a 5e Lich and that's probably about how powerful a patron likely is. In fact I think in SCAG Liches are called out as one possible patron for the Undying pact. And remember, even one that powerful can still interact with the PC without doing spotlight stealing stuff. Why doesn't the arch-devil just obliterate the enemy himself? Well because he made a pact with you so he wouldn't have to chucklehead. Or maybe it's like a chess game to them. Plus they can use proxies, or maybe they show up in disguise to see how you're doing without risking you just sucking up to them.

And with THAT being said if you do use a weaker creature, possibly make that a big deal. And arch-fiend may be able to make a pact with a warlock without any real ding in their power, but a succubus doing so might be a sign of extreme desperation.

This is mostly the direction I'm leaning as well. I doubt I'll have much need to stating the Patron themselves, the interest in their power level is more along the lines of A) How do warlock patron interact with other powerful beings in the setting like Deities and the like, B) How to roleplay out interactions between patrons and their warlocks, and C) How warlocks are viewed by society.

I imagine that a great deal of warlock patron like Archfey, Archfiends and Great Old ones don't have a lot of regular access to the material plane (there a great deal of other powers like gods that have a vested interest in them not being there), which gives a strong incentive for these creature to create warlocks, even low level ones, as it gives them access to a place where they otherwise might be lacking in useful pawns. Liches on the other hand being active in the material plane but also on that 18+ scale makes them an interesting alternative as they can be potentially more active in their warlocks day to day lives.

[Potato_Priest]

I've always liked the idea that although the warlock's power is tied to that of some uber powerful being, they don't deal with them directly, instead mostly interacting with a secretary whose job it is to handle their "account". This secretary would probably be some weaker creature, like a sprite or green hag for archfey, a nalfeshnee, imp, or arcanoloth for fiend pact, and a spectator for great old one.

[Ultra4Life]

Somewhat off topic bit of advice with Patrons as well, but it's still in the ballpark, if you have the Patron regularly making demands of the Warlock in question, don't get concerned with what the players do. Generally speaking a Patron is likely ancient and really, really smart. They also probably have a good idea of what the Warlock is like deep down. So when the Arch-Fiend tells the warlock to do this evil thing, don't necessarily punish the player for acting against them. When they think they've really stuck it to their Patron by disobeying them in a suitably awesome manner, have the Patron contact them and thank them for their loyal service. You don't need to tell the player this next bit, but why? Because of course the Patron figured you'd disobey, and of the various likely means of retaliation he figured they'd help further their goals. They gave you an unacceptable order specifically to get you to disobey in a manner that would benefit them.

The reason I'm a fan of this type of Patron demands is that it keeps the players guessing and also removes the possible problem of a player being angry that they got punished for "roleplaying what their character would do". If Warlocks were substantially more powerful than the other classes I could buy giving them a tight leash, but they aren't.

[ChellGame]

I've always liked the idea that although the warlock's power is tied to that of some uber powerful being, they don't deal with them directly, instead mostly interacting with a secretary whose job it is to handle their "account". This secretary would probably be some weaker creature, like a sprite or green hag for archfey, a nalfeshnee, imp, or arcanoloth for fiend pact, and a spectator for great old one.

This is a really good idea, giving them a "secretary" figure for their patron can help to make the pact feel like a more active part of the world and give players a non-magical way of getting in contact with what their patron wants. Also gives the patron a way of keeping an eye on their new servant. Ill definitely keep this idea in mind.

....

Now I want to give a Great Old One Warlock, and "imaginary friend" that only he can see, and likes to start conversation at inopportune moments.



Somewhat off topic bit of advice with Patrons as well, but it's still in the ballpark, if you have the Patron regularly making demands of the Warlock in question, don't get concerned with what the players do. Generally speaking a Patron is likely ancient and really, really smart. They also probably have a good idea of what the Warlock is like deep down. So when the Arch-Fiend tells the warlock to do this evil thing, don't necessarily punish the player for acting against them. When they think they've really stuck it to their Patron by disobeying them in a suitably awesome manner, have the Patron contact them and thank them for their loyal service. You don't need to tell the player this next bit, but why? Because of course the Patron figured you'd disobey, and of the various likely means of retaliation he figured they'd help further their goals. They gave you an unacceptable order specifically to get you to disobey in a manner that would benefit them.

The reason I'm a fan of this type of Patron demands is that it keeps the players guessing and also removes the possible problem of a player being angry that they got punished for "roleplaying what their character would do". If Warlocks were substantially more powerful than the other classes I could buy giving them a tight leash, but they aren't.

Yeah, I don't want the patrons keeping to tight a leash on the players, since there no real mechanical offset for it, and I'm not interested in adding one. That being said when a player choose to play a warlock I assume that on some level at least the reason they choose it was because of the flavour of the class, and having their patron be a complete absenty would ruin that. So I'm trying to find a good middle ground. By making them into more of a sidequest giver who rewards players for their loyalty, and occasionally might try to punish their disobedience.

I mean if your patron is a fiend, even if the use the power for good, Im pretty sure hes still got dibs on your soul at the end, and your not going to be in for a good time when you get there. Hell, he might even send down some of his minions, cultists, etc to try to off you and cash in on his investment early if you don't tow the line.

"On the run from a Pit Fiends minions because I didn't burn down the orphanage he told me to," could make for a pretty fun character backstory.

[Phoenix042]

What method would use for your campaign and why? (I don't feel there a "cannon" answer for this as the different pacts in PHB/SCAG/UA seem to imply different min. power levels for the patrons.)

I'd keep the "ultimate" patron the same, and instead allow lesser fiends, fey, or aberrations to administer the pacts and whatnot.

So for example, a succubus might indeed perform the pact ceremony with you and act as your master/mentor, on behalf of Asmodeus the Arch-fiend.

The succubus is a reasonable-CR creature with stats that make sense, whereas Asmodeus is very much NOT a creature I'd care to cross-swords (or scepter's) with.

So this way you have sort of the best of both worlds.

With a fey patron, maybe you're approached by a dryad who performs a ritual to give you Warlock powers. You can find this dryad again later, and through her, you can communicate with the Queen of the Seelie court. Maybe the dryad gives you tasks to complete, and in return, grants you greater power (higher levels). Eventually, the dryad cannot grant you more power (maybe at like level 3-5) and she sends you to a more powerful fey master (still a servent of the Queen).

Idk, that's what I'd do.

[ChellGame]

I'd keep the "ultimate" patron the same, and instead allow lesser fiends, fey, or aberrations to administer the pacts and whatnot.

So for example, a succubus might indeed perform the pact ceremony with you and act as your master/mentor, on behalf of Asmodeus the Arch-fiend.

The succubus is a reasonable-CR creature with stats that make sense, whereas Asmodeus is very much NOT a creature I'd care to cross-swords (or scepter's) with.

So this way you have sort of the best of both worlds.

With a fey patron, maybe you're approached by a dryad who performs a ritual to give you Warlock powers. You can find this dryad again later, and through her, you can communicate with the Queen of the Seelie court. Maybe the dryad gives you tasks to complete, and in return, grants you greater power (higher levels). Eventually, the dryad cannot grant you more power (maybe at like level 3-5) and she sends you to a more powerful fey master (still a servent of the Queen).

Idk, that's what I'd do.

This actually works really well with Potato_Priest idea for a secretary as well. A lesser creature can make the pact on behalf of the greater patron, and then stick around every once and a while to keep and eye on them. I like the Idea of their being almost a corporate ladder of pact making your character might have to make as they rise through the ranks.

[Katrina]

A corporate ladder is especially relevant with Devils, who are historically Lawful entities. I did notice that the Succubus was literally removed from the Demon listing in 5th E and made its own creature that contracts out to both sides effectively. That and the fluff of that being exactly what Succubi tend to do in Fantasy settings makes them acting as a "broker" or secretary for a more powerful entity such as Asmodeus is very fitting.

[Unoriginal]

A Level 20 Warlock is described as being able to become a Patron themselves, even though they'd probably count as CR 13 or close, if you wanted to know how "weak" the less powerful Patron described in the books is.


Now, I would agree that generally, a CR 18+ being would be needed. If you wanted a Succubus or a Unicorn to be Patrons, you could easily say that they're very powerful ones who are CR 18+.


Something else that should be noted is that, if one follow what's written in the books, a Warlock's Patron cannot do things like remove a Warlock's powers or the like. Warlocks are getting taught special magic secrets, not granted spells by a god. So if a Patron makes unreasonable demands, the Warlock is free to refuse. Unless it's been established that the Warlock has made a special pact about that. Of course, pissing off your Patron is not the smartest ideas, but let's not forget the Warlock could turn to one of the Patron's business rivals, if things came to that.

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't give stats to the Patron itself. For an example, a Fiend capable of being a Patron would at least be an Archdevil. If the party is going after an Archdevil, well... Make some sanity checks. :smalltongue:

I mean, it's not impossible to take out an Archdevil. But I think we all agree, it's typically ill-advised.

You can have creatures in service of that Patron stop by to visit the Warlock. A Succubus, for example. The Archdevil wouldn't bother to check in on the Warlock itself, that's far too beneath its power. It doesn't warrant its attention. But they typically have tons of subordinates, and someone's keeping track of all that. Someone in that power structure is keeping tabs on how power is developing in the hands of fledgling Warlocks.

[Millstone85]

A Level 20 Warlock is described as being able to become a Patron themselves, even though they'd probably count as CR 13 or close, if you wanted to know how "weak" the less powerful Patron described in the books is.This is presented alongside a cleric being "taken up into the heavens to serve as a god's right hand", a wizard unlocking "the secret to immortality (or undeath) and" spending "eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse", or a druid becoming "one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild".

So yes, a level 20 warlock can become a patron themselves, but then they probably aren't a level 20 warlock anymore.

Or a PC, for that matter. These are ways to retire the characters.

[Unoriginal]

This is presented alongside a cleric being "taken up into the heavens to serve as a god's right hand", a wizard unlocking "the secret to immortality (or undeath) and" spending "eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse", or a druid becoming "one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild".

So yes, a level 20 warlock can become a patron themselves, but then they probably aren't a level 20 warlock anymore.

Or a PC, for that matter. These are ways to retire the characters.

Well, point is that the lvl 20 Warlock is the "weakest" being we know that can become a Patron. But it's probable than it's because they've learned all there is to known about the secrets of their brand of magic, or nearly so.

[Asmotherion]

Well, a general guidline would be CR20 plus but could work with a CR as low as 13. The Creature should usually have a strong lore assosiating it with Magic, Legends formed around it and generally fit some existing patron Archetype, unless you're oppen to UA/homebrew.

Some ideas I've either used or included as guidelines to my players in the past include:

Old One: Ancient (Shadow for flavor) Dragon, Mind Flayer's Elder Brain, Beholder of significant age.

Fiend: Pit Fiend, Layer of Hell prince, Demon Lord, Balor, Asmodeus himself, Tiamat herself. The two latter options Qualify as the former used to not be an actual deity himself (although all he lacked was a divine spark/rank to quallify) thus could very well be a patron before deification, wile Tiamat is currently imprisoned in the 9 hells, and is considered both a Dragon and Fiend.

Fay: Other than the popular options, you may use an Elven Mage that has outlived even his/her kind by a lot, or a legendary Fay ancestry Hero('s soul).

Undying: Here you can become much more creative, as any kind of undead that was once mortal can quallify. Some options I especially love are: Ancient Dracolich, Ancient Shadow Dragon (again), Alhoon (Mind Flayer Lich), Vampire Lord, Baelnorn (Good aligned Elven Lich), Dry Lich (Also an other kind of non necessarily evil Lich), Death Tyrant

By refluffing, you could include in one or more categories the Genies, Solars, Empyreans or even Planes themselves (like the UA Undying Light Warlock).

Something else that I would like to put my oppinion on is what was suggested as "if a patron dies, what happens to the Warlock".

As per 3.5 Lore, a Warlock can be either made through a Pact or Born with his powers, assosiated to a Patron through Linage. Also, the Warlock is an Arcane, as opposed to Divine spellcaster, and what what referanced to as a "spontaneus caster" in that he does not prepare spells. A Warlock's power is a gift bestowed from the patron, and cannot be taken back. Once bestowed, the power is infused to the very soul of the Warlock, and cannot be simply taken back, probably without killing the Warlock first. He does not "channel" the energy, as a cleric does, he simply knows the spells once and for all. The patron is more like a Teacher to the Warlock student than his Deity, although the patron might request to be Worshiped as a Deity in return. Thus, a Warlock who has his patron killed would not loose his Warlock power, but would not be able to advance more levels as a Warlock, untill he made a new pact with an other Patron. It is mentioned that a Warlock can have more than one Pacts, but only one of them serves as his Patron.

An other example backing up my claims would be patrons (especially fiends) giving missions to hunt down "a Warlock gone rogue (not the class)" to his Warlock. This would mean that the patron cannot simply take back the power he gave, and needs the Warlock dead to punish him for his betrayal. That's the reason it's generally not a very good ideal to betray your Patron, unless you're ready to kill them yourself.

All this is 3.5 lore I remember, and I can't back up my claims with 5e lore alone, I just believe that this is the intended mechanics in this case.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Really, it's up to you. I actually quite like the idea of weaker devils and demons being capable of making pacts. Like, their patronage isn't as valuable, but they aren't as dangerous to deal with either. Perhaps there comes a point where they can't help you anymore and you have to transfer your pact to a more powerful being in order to keep getting warlock levels.

I'd also consider 'being a patron' as an option for PCs post level 20. I wrote some epic boons to formalise that here (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/02/epic-boons-ascend-to-archfey.html).

[Lynnalynna]

An old statement that I think applies well here, "if you stay it, they will kill it." Just something to keep in mind.

[Shadowflick]

Why not make it a pyramid scheme? The Patron passes there power to a warlock, who in turn passes it to another warlock and so on and so on. Eventually when one warlock dies, another one takes its place in the pyramid, and the patron on the top reaps the benifits of his large network

[Joe the Rat]

Why not make it a pyramid scheme? The Patron passes there power to a warlock, who in turn passes it to another warlock and so on and so on. Eventually when one warlock dies, another one takes its place in the pyramid, and the patron on the top reaps the benifits of his large network

Tied to "patron grants knowledge/access to power, not the power itself," it's not about what the patron can support, but how many pacts the patron has from which to 'borrow' power. Cults let by warlocks to built the patron's power to attempt ascension... That could be fun.

What I like for patrons/agents:
Fiend: Pit fiends, archduke/duchess, Rakshasa, Tiamat; arcanaloth, succubi, [night hags]; Glabrezu. Cambion agents. Imps, Quasits, and 'cubi are the most likely "messengers".
Fey: Hags or hag covens, [Night Hags], random court nobles, ancient elves, Small Gods (spirit of a specific feature or location)
Old One: Overclocked abominations (beholders, 'brains, aboleths), dead gods, sentient esoterica (A song with hidden meanings, the script for a cursed play, certain shades of the color blue), denizens of the astral plane, [Vlaakith the Lich Queen]. I'm also partial to a megapowerful psychic gray ooze for this one.
Undying: Powerful Sentient Undead: Liches and Demiliches, Mummy Lords, Named Vampires; superpowerful spirits. [Vlaakith the Lich Queen]. Seekers of immortality via other means (Halaster?). A Revenant-lite deal with the reaper. Secrets that tie you to the negative energy plane. A bumbling archon that pulled you too soon.
Raven Queen: Psychopomps and Guardians. (Charon, Anubis, Valkyries). Other categories of being that fit better here.
Hexblade: Ancient Sentient "Weapons". Slumbering war machines and half-mad orbital platforms. Stormbringer Blackrazor. Brother Eye. The Moment. Neuromancer/Wintermute

[Ninja_Prawn]

Why not make it a pyramid scheme?

...That I call the 'feudal system'. (http://www.scarygoround.com/sgr/ar.php?date=20081113)

[Unoriginal]

People always seems to forget that Demons like Balors or Demon Lords are also valid Fiend Patron

[Vorok]

I would probably shy away from a Patron having stats at all. Main reason is "Why?". Are you planning to have the players fight the patrons, and if so what'll happen to a warlock player with that patron when they die? To me that seems like a recipe for disaster.


I have an idea for a warlock that would like to force this situation, since he made a pact with a fiend to save his city, but the city kicked him out afterwards. He'd go on adventures to get more powerful, and then hopefully go to kill/imprison (with the 9th level spell) the fiend to redeem himself. What would happen then would be up to the GM, but I wouldn't mind ending that particular character at that point. Seems like a nice story, not a disaster to me.

[Millstone85]

Well, point is that the lvl 20 Warlock is the "weakest" being we know that can become a Patron.I thought the point was a minimum CR for a creature that is currently a warlock's patron.

In that regard, I interpret the DMG as saying that a level 20 warlock could turn into something that would then be able to empower another warlock.

For example, I could imagine a level 20 warlock permanently true-polymorphing* himself into a pit fiend before looking for mortals to make pacts with.

It is no longer relevant if a level 20 warlock would match a challenge rating of 13 or close. See what I mean?

* The spell is just an excuse. The narrative determines the character's transformative apogee.


As per 3.5 Lore, a Warlock can be either made through a Pact or Born with his powers, assosiated to a Patron through Linage. Also, the Warlock is an Arcane, as opposed to Divine spellcaster, and what what referanced to as a "spontaneus caster" in that he does not prepare spells.Even without knowing that, I kept thinking that, fluff-wise, the sorcerer and the warlock should have been one class. A pact with a dragon, hereditary fey powers...