Best Mage Slayer

[tedcahill2]

I always thought that the monk made the most sense as a mage slayer type, but reading the boards I see the monk is generally considered weak.

So what is the best class combination for a mage slayer archetype? Is there a decent mage slayer type for an E6 campaign?

I was thinking monk 2, rogue 2, to get evasion and the AFC evasion for targeted spells.

[Venger]

I always thought that the monk made the most sense as a mage slayer type, but reading the boards I see the monk is generally considered weak.

So what is the best class combination for a mage slayer archetype? Is there a decent mage slayer type for an E6 campaign?

I was thinking monk 2, rogue 2, to get evasion and the AFC evasion for targeted spells.

monk is the worst class. don't take it.

what do you mean when you say mage slayer archetype? do you mean someone using the mage slayer feat line? if so, a typical lockdown melee brute centered around aoos will probably help you. monk2/rog2/xx2 will be pretty annoying for your enemies to kill, but will offer little in the way of offensive punch, even with invisible fist.

the handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6605.0) as ever is useful, but basically if you want to kill casters, you gotta play a caster.

[Soranar]

A simpler defensive tactic when faced with a mage is to prevent him from casting any spell to being with

which means using the mage slayer feats

Since they only work in melee, your best bet is to combine them with a reach weapon and means to increase your reach further than that.

So, to increase reach

-aberrant blood+ aberrant reach (+5 ft reach)
-a reach weapon(doubles your reach) + armor spike (to threaten nearby squares) or a spiked chain

To gain extra attacks of opportunity

-combat reflexes+ a highish DEX
-the thickets of blades stance (crusader)
-the mage slayer feat chain (mage slayer is ok, if you manage to get pierce magical concealment you're golden)

alternatively the knight also has an ability similar to thickets of blades

finally a monk dip (with the decisive strike ACF) is worth it in e6, your weapon deals double damage until the end of the turn so it also works with attacks of opportunity and it works in armor so you don't need WIS but you'll have to waste a feat on pole master to gain access to a reach weapon

[tedcahill2]

what do you mean when you say mage slayer archetype?

I was thinking of classes with abilities that make you near immune to magic, with enough mobility to get close to them and offensive power to bring them down.

So high saves, evasion, mettle, still mind, things like that.

[Gusmo]

You'll want to consider favored enemy: arcanist (Complete Arcane allows this) and the nemesis feat (Book of Exalted Deeds). This way you'll pretty much always know when an arcane caster is close. Edit: also, I see you emphasizing saves, but don't forget a good touch AC. Plenty of touch spells don't offer a save and are very nasty.

[tedcahill2]

You'll want to consider favored enemy: arcanist (Complete Arcane allows this) and the nemesis feat (Book of Exalted Deeds). This way you'll pretty much always know when an arcane caster is close. Edit: also, I see you emphasizing saves, but don't forget a good touch AC. Plenty of touch spells don't offer a save and are very nasty.

I think going monk helps here for the wisdom to AC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Paladin 19, as long as you do the following:

Domains: Knowledge Devotion (CC), Law Devotion (CC), Inquisition (SC)

Alternate Class Features: Trade Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell (CM), trade Paladin Special Mount for Underdark Knight (CC).

Feats: Get Divine Defiance (FC2), consider taking Mage Slayer and similar feats but you'll need Practiced Spellcaster to make up the lost caster level.

Spells: Rhino's Rush (SC) and Knight's Move (SC) are top choices, but not necessarily required. Get 1st level Pearls of Power to use Rhino's Rush more often.

Items: Ephod of Authority (MIC), anything else that adds effective levels to your Turn Undead ability which also boosts your Divine Counterspell check.


Your Divine Counterspell benefits from the Inquisition domain's power (+4), anything that boosts your effective Turn Undead level (Ephod of Authority is +1, Phylactery of Undead Turning is +4, Scepter of the Netherworld is +3, etc.), and you get +2 for having at least five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, so you'll be adding your character level plus two plus any items to that check. You can spend a turn undead use from Cloistered Cleric to use Divine Defiance and activate Divine Counterspell as an immediate action, so you won't be sacrificing any attacks for it.

This is a rough chassis that can do a whole lot more than just fight spellcasters, and you can throw on tons of other stuff to make it able to do other things. You could make it a Whisper Gnome (RoS) and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, or dip a level of (Psychic) Rogue, and take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike. You could go with this build that does Intimidate and a lot more stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5). You could get Charging Smite (PH2) instead of Underdark Knight and combine it with Leap Attack, Rhino's Rush, and a Valorous weapon to almost guarantee you'll kill anything that's evil in a single hit.

[Venger]

ccleric1/pally5, since it's e6, but otherwise solid advice where pretty much everything else applies.

[tedcahill2]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Paladin 19, as long as you do the following:

Domains: Knowledge Devotion (CC), Law Devotion (CC), Inquisition (SC)

Alternate Class Features: Trade Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell (CM), trade Paladin Special Mount for Underdark Knight (CC).

Feats: Get Divine Defiance (FC2), consider taking Mage Slayer and similar feats but you'll need Practiced Spellcaster to make up the lost caster level.

Spells: Rhino's Rush (SC) and Knight's Move (SC) are top choices, but not necessarily required. Get 1st level Pearls of Power to use Rhino's Rush more often.

Items: Ephod of Authority (MIC), anything else that adds effective levels to your Turn Undead ability which also boosts your Divine Counterspell check.


Your Divine Counterspell benefits from the Inquisition domain's power (+4), anything that boosts your effective Turn Undead level (Ephod of Authority is +1, Phylactery of Undead Turning is +4, Scepter of the Netherworld is +3, etc.), and you get +2 for having at least five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, so you'll be adding your character level plus two plus any items to that check. You can spend a turn undead use from Cloistered Cleric to use Divine Defiance and activate Divine Counterspell as an immediate action, so you won't be sacrificing any attacks for it.

This is a rough chassis that can do a whole lot more than just fight spellcasters, and you can throw on tons of other stuff to make it able to do other things. You could make it a Whisper Gnome (RoS) and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, or dip a level of (Psychic) Rogue, and take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike. You could go with this build that does Intimidate and a lot more stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5). You could get Charging Smite (PH2) instead of Underdark Knight and combine it with Leap Attack, Rhino's Rush, and a Valorous weapon to almost guarantee you'll kill anything that's evil in a single hit.

I'm not familiar with a lot of what's here. Can you summarize why this makes a good mage slayer?

[Venger]

that is a very good and thorough summary. what is it you need clarification on?

[tedcahill2]

Here's a list of the things I'm liking for a mage slayer type character so far. Maybe you can help me develop it more.

Ranger 1 - to get Favored Enemy (arcanist)
Hex Blade 3 - for Mettle, Cha to saves
Rogue 2 - for Evasion
Monk 2 - for Wis to AC and Evasion (one of the evasions would be the Spell Reflection ACF)

Not sure if Mettle is worth trying to get at all. In an E6 game would Mnk2/Rog2/Hex2 have any worth? Would Mnk2/Rog2/Rng1/???1 be better? I really like the idea of having Spell Reflection and Evasion on a Mage Slayer archetype.

Feats of Note:
Nemesis
Mage Slayer

[tedcahill2]

that is a very good and thorough summary. what is it you need clarification on?

Is the only mage slayer type ability Divine Counterspell, and since divine counterspell is based on your Cleric level, which you have at 1, be pretty worthless?

[Venger]

Here's a list of the things I'm liking for a mage slayer type character so far. Maybe you can help me develop it more.

Ranger 1 - to get Favored Enemy (arcanist)
Hex Blade 3 - for Mettle, Cha to saves
Rogue 2 - for Evasion
Monk 2 - for Wis to AC and Evasion (one of the evasions would be the Spell Reflection ACF)

Not sure if Mettle is worth trying to get at all. In an E6 game would Mnk2/Rog2/Hex2 have any worth? Would Mnk2/Rog2/Rng1/???1 be better? I really like the idea of having Spell Reflection and Evasion on a Mage Slayer archetype.

Feats of Note:
Nemesis
Mage Slayer

is there a reason Biffoniacus_Furiou's paladin build is not useful to you? it gives you a great variety of spells, mobility, decent ability to deal HP damage, and divine grace, which beefs up your saves, which you stress. Serenity could help you become more SAD, but you'd still need cha for your turn pool, so you may well leave it as-is.

it lets you charge and deal a lot of damage, makes you somewhat more resistant to spells, and gives you a lot of options with your turning pool, including the ability to spontaneously dispel and counterspell enemy spells, which is important on a mage killer.


with regards to your sample builds, you are overvaluing the usefulness of these abilities.

as has been mentioned upthread, they will make you marginally harder to kill, but they come at the cost of you having anything offensive to do yourself.

your sample builds are extremely MAD, roping in almost every ability which your disparate defensive abilities would rely on. even with an la0 race, you're not going to be able to pb good values for all of those.


Is the only mage slayer type ability Divine Counterspell, and since divine counterspell is based on your Cleric level, which you have at 1, be pretty worthless?

no, that isn't the only mage slayer type ability. the list has a ton of different options.

you're playing E6, so enemy caster levels will not be that high. your CL can also be mitigated by taking practiced spellcaster, which will let it effectively scale with your level. plus this lets you dispel without burning any of your slots and is cheaper than using divine countermagic since, again, in e6 you're not gonna have as many ways to expand your turning pool:


Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Paladin 19, as long as you do the following:

Domains: Knowledge Devotion (CC), Law Devotion (CC), Inquisition (SC)
knowledge devotion lets you use knowledge skills to get bonuses on atk and dmg vs enemies.
law devotion beefs up your attack or saves.
inquisition domain gives you +4 to dispel checks


Alternate Class Features: Trade Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell (CM), trade Paladin Special Mount for Underdark Knight (CC).
this boosts your speed by 10 feet to help with mobility and gives bonuses to movement based skills


Feats: Get Divine Defiance (FC2), consider taking Mage Slayer and similar feats but you'll need Practiced Spellcaster to make up the lost caster level.
this feat lets you burn turns in order to counterspell enemy spells as an immediate instead of having to wait your turn with divine countermagic.

practiced spellcaster boosts your cl by 4


Spells: Rhino's Rush (SC) and Knight's Move (SC) are top choices, but not necessarily required. Get 1st level Pearls of Power to use Rhino's Rush more often.
rhino's rush is a 1st lvl paladin spell that doubles your damage on a charge. knight's move is a 2nd lvl pally spell that lets you teleport around the battlefield to flank enemies.

not mentioned here but very important: grab the battle blessing feat at some point. it lets you cast all your paladin spells as swifts. both of these are already swift, but a lot of your other spells aren't.



Items: Ephod of Authority (MIC), anything else that adds effective levels to your Turn Undead ability which also boosts your Divine Counterspell check.
treat your effective cleric level as +1.


Your Divine Counterspell benefits from the Inquisition domain's power (+4), anything that boosts your effective Turn Undead level (Ephod of Authority is +1, Phylactery of Undead Turning is +4, Scepter of the Netherworld is +3, etc.), and you get +2 for having at least five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, so you'll be adding your character level plus two plus any items to that check. You can spend a turn undead use from Cloistered Cleric to use Divine Defiance and activate Divine Counterspell as an immediate action, so you won't be sacrificing any attacks for it.

This is a rough chassis that can do a whole lot more than just fight spellcasters, and you can throw on tons of other stuff to make it able to do other things. You could make it a Whisper Gnome (RoS) and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, or dip a level of (Psychic) Rogue, and take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike. You could go with this build that does Intimidate and a lot more stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5). You could get Charging Smite (PH2) instead of Underdark Knight and combine it with Leap Attack, Rhino's Rush, and a Valorous weapon to almost guarantee you'll kill anything that's evil in a single hit.
and then all of this is self-explanatory

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I completely missed that it was E6, but it still works, just use Charging Smite instead of Underdark Knight.

You get Turn Undead from Cleric, your Cleric level is irrelevant because it's only used to power divine feats: Divine Defiance and Law Devotion.

Divine Counterspell is based on your Paladin level, because you traded your Paladin 4 Turn Undead ability for it. That means you get (Paladin level -3) as your effective Cleric level for how it functions, because that's your effective Cleric level for your Paladin Turn Undead ability. Items that increase your effective Cleric level for Turn Undead also increase that. You add +4 to that from the Inquisition domain's power, since it's a dispel check. You add +2 to that from having five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana.

So you have (Character Level -1) levels of Paladin, and you get (Paladin Level -3) for Divine Counterspell, so it's at (Character Level -4). The Inquisition domain's +4 brings this check up to 1d20 + Character Level. Having five ranks in Knowledge: Arcana adds another +2, and then any items that increase your Turn Undead level are also added to that. You'll have a higher bonus than a single-classed spellcaster using Dispel Magic.

You don't need a Wisdom score higher than 12 for this. You've only got 1st level Cleric spells, and in E6 only 1st level Paladin spells, so 12 gets you a bonus spell for both. You're not casting spells on enemies, so your save DC is irrelevant. You only need Str, Con, and Cha, since you can use heavy armor and skills aren't really important. It's basically a one-mental-stat melee build that doesn't need much Dex.

[Crake]

The only part about that otherwise really nice build is that I'm a little dubious about the interaction between divine counterspell and divine defiance. Divine defiance seems to imply by the way it's written that the counterspell needs to be done either with the correct spell, or with dispel magic. Divine counterspell on the other hand is it's own kind of ability, which does a similar thing, it counterspells, but it itself is neither the correct spell or dispel magic.

That said, I'd probably allow it as a DM, but I can see it not working together as well.

Personally, just going regular cleric 6 will net you 1 less bab, but otherwise get you 3rd level spells, which means, combined with arcane mastery (qualified for via something like the magical training feat), you can get the inquisition domain, and take 10 on the dispel check to automatically counterspell anything with CL9 or less, which should be MOST casters in the world. Of course, you can only do it once or twice per day, due to limited 3rd level spell slots, but there's always 3rd level pearls of power to help with that.

[Florian]

For E6, the most efficient "Mage Killer" might be a full BAB archer with a pet w. scent and trip, as well as improved initiative.
In this level bracket, most casters can´t make their concentration checks against a ready action and a martial can counter the most common defenses with cheap items or buffs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1
Spontaneous domain casting (Magic domain)
Abilities: 13+ wisdom (to cast dispel magic), 14+ charisma (to have 5 turn attempts)
Domains: Inquisition (bonus, from Church Inquisitor), Knowledge, Magic, Purification
Feats: Divine Defiance, Domain Focus (Magic), Versatile Spellcaster
Items: dispelling cord (1000 gp)
Caster level 6, +1 for abjurations (Purification domain), +1 for Magic domain spells (Domain Focus)
+5 on dispel checks (+4 Inquisition domain, +1 Penetrating Insight, from Paragnostic Apostle)
+2 on dispel checks 5/day from dispelling cord

With one turn undead use, you can counterspell as an immediate action, burning any prepared spell(s) to spontaneously cast dispel magic. With Versatile Spellcaster, you have at least 5 third-level spells per day. Your bonus on dispel checks is +15, 5/day, and +13 after that (but you're out of spells anyway). At level 6, nothing magical is going to get past you for a long time.
It's not a mage slayer per sé, it's mostly a mage counterer, but that's like ninety percent of killing a mage, so that's cool. Biffoniacus_Furiou has a better all-round mage-killer build; this cleric was intended to be a fairly focused NPC caster.

[tedcahill2]

Divine Counterspell is based on your Paladin level, because you traded your Paladin 4 Turn Undead ability for it. That means you get (Paladin level -3) as your effective Cleric level for how it functions, because that's your effective Cleric level for your Paladin Turn Undead ability.

From Divine Counterspell, "If you don't a cleric level, use your effective cleric level..."

Since you took 1 cleric level, you have a cleric level, and thus your effective cleric level from all the paladin levels don't matter. Right?

[Venger]

From Divine Counterspell, "If you don't a cleric level, use your effective cleric level..."

Since you took 1 cleric level, you have a cleric level, and thus your effective cleric level from all the paladin levels don't matter. Right?

no, because you traded paladin's turn undead for it, not cleric's, so it would scale with level.

[Jormengand]

I would go human ranger 6, with some kind of spell-less variant, FE: Arcanist, the Blind Fight, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment feats and if you're allowed flaws, the Natural Bond and Iron Will feats. Grab a Magebane Spiked Chain, some ranged weapon, and a masterwork listen tool (max out listen; you'll need it). You'll also want hide, move silently, spot and survival, and masterwork tools for them are neat too. If you can grab tools of legend from Dragonlance, that's even better and even cheesier.

At level 6, a dedicated mage slayer like this one should easily be able to take out all but the best-played casters of the same level. Against one of the better forumites you'll have less of a chance, but that's well-played casters for you.

[Shadowflick]

Could always be a grappler with high initiative. Cant cast spells with somatic components if there grappled

[Karl Aegis]

You should never gamble your life in a game with a Sicilian unless you are also a Sicilian or happen to be the Dread Pirate Roberts. Mages are like Sicilians in that respect.

[The_Jette]

no, because you traded paladin's turn undead for it, not cleric's, so it would scale with level.

If you used Divine Counterspell as a Paladin, your effective cleric level is still 3 levels lower for the roll, as spelled out in the description of the feat. However, your Paladin levels would probably stack with your Cleric level towards the Divine Counterspell, since they stack when determining your level for Turn Undead. It's not exactly spelled out, so RAW for this is questionable. As a DM I would expect the player to give up both for them to stack, though. Meaning, he could give up his one level of Turn Undead as a Cleric to add the one level towards Divine Counterspell. Otherwise, he'd be counterspelling at Paladin level -3, and Turning Undead at his base Cleric Level. But, that's just me.

[Venger]

If you used Divine Counterspell as a Paladin, your effective cleric level is still 3 levels lower for the roll, as spelled out in the description of the feat. However, your Paladin levels would probably stack with your Cleric level towards the Divine Counterspell, since they stack when determining your level for Turn Undead. It's not exactly spelled out, so RAW for this is questionable. As a DM I would expect the player to give up both for them to stack, though. Meaning, he could give up his one level of Turn Undead as a Cleric to add the one level towards Divine Counterspell. Otherwise, he'd be counterspelling at Paladin level -3, and Turning Undead at his base Cleric Level. But, that's just me.

While that's certainly one approach, the strategy laid out was to sacrifice pally's turn for counterspell, and then keep cleric's turning to power divine defiance.

paladin and cleric do not stack. they are two separate pools. if you take sorcerer and wizard levels and then enter a +arcane casting class, you gotta pick one, they don't pool.

you're counterspelling at paladin-3, and you don't care about turning undead, you use that pool to power feats like divine defiance.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Use divine spellcaster to try to counterspell or kill an arcane spellcaster is not a good idea. This is indeed a terrible idea.

[Venger]

Use divine spellcaster to try to counterspell or kill an arcane spellcaster is not a good idea. This is indeed a terrible idea.

What reason do you have for saying these things? We've spent the entire thread discussing why it's viable. Arcane casters definitely have more options, but in e6, a divine caster or semicaster like the paladin we're discussing can hold his own competently.

[ATHATH]

Use divine spellcaster to try to counterspell or kill an arcane spellcaster is not a good idea. This is indeed a terrible idea.
Why? In E6, casters generally can't Quicken spells yet (even the DMM: Persist ones can't do it more than a few times), and a primary spellcaster who can't cast spells is effectively dead/stunned unless they have quite a few buffs up.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Why? In E6, casters generally can't Quicken spells yet (even the DMM: Persist ones can't do it more than a few times), and a primary spellcaster who can't cast spells is effectively dead/stunned unless they have quite a few buffs up.

Arcane Spellsurge allow use "Free Quicken spell". Arcane spellcaster can persist spells too.

Evil Weather Spell(Violet Rain) can simply destroy any divine spellcaster, if he use it as Craft Contingent Spell or Duplicate via Wish or Alamanther Return bypass 1hours casting.
Also, Universal Spells cant be counterspelled, so Wish or Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion is so dangerous.
Also, Shrinshee Spell Shift spells + Battlemagic perception allow arcane spellcaster counterspell and CONTROL your spells. Basically Arcane Spellcaster counterspell and use it against you.

[Venger]

Arcane Spellsurge allow use "Free Quicken spell". Arcane spellcaster can persist spells too.

Evil Weather Spell(Violet Rain) can simply destroy any divine spellcaster, if he use it as Craft Contingent Spell or Duplicate via Wish or Alamanther Return bypass 1hours casting.
Also, Universal Spells cant be counterspelled, so Wish or Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion is so dangerous.
Also, Shrinshee Spell Shift spells + Battlemagic perception allow arcane spellcaster counterspell and CONTROL your spells.

arcane spellsurge is a 7

evil weather is an 8

universal spells can absolutely be counterspelled.

wish is a 9

arcane fusion is a 5, greater is an 8

Srinshee's Spell Shift is a 9

the only spell on your list that an enemy caster can use in an e6 environment is battlemagic perception, and even then it only lets him know what spell you're casting, which is nice, but hardly invalidates any of your strategies.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

arcane spellsurge is a 7

evil weather is an 8

universal spells can absolutely be counterspelled.

wish is a 9

arcane fusion is a 5, greater is an 8

Srinshee's Spell Shift is a 9

the only spell on your list that an enemy caster can use in an e6 environment is battlemagic perception, and even then it only lets him know what spell you're casting, which is nice, but hardly invalidates any of your strategies.

Wish can be counterspelled only by Wish. Arcane Fusion can be counterpelled only by Arcane Fusion.
So, divine spellcaster cant dispell that.
Battlemagic perception + Improved Counterspell + Reactive Counterspell = Easy counterspell.

[Jormengand]

Universal spells cannot be countered with the Improved Counterspell feat because universal spells lack a school ("Universal" is not itself a school). They can absolutely be countered with Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, or other effects which counter a spell irrespective of which spell it is.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Universal spells cannot be countered with the Improved Counterspell feat because universal spells lack a school ("Universal" is not itself a school). They can absolutely be countered with Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, or other effects which counter a spell irrespective of which spell it is.
Sure, but, Arcane Spellcaster just rise your caster level.
Dispel magic can be useless.

[Jormengand]

Sure, but, Arcane Spellcaster just rise your caster level.
Dispel magic can be useless.

The number of ways to raise your caster level in E6 is not a particularly high one. Fewer still are unique to arcane casters.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've heard that Psions can make good mage slayers. I'm not sure how good they'd be in an E6 game, but magic/psionic transparency doesn't apply to feats, making the mage slayer line a lot better.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

The number of ways to raise your caster level in E6 is not a particularly high one. Fewer still are unique to arcane casters.
Dispel magic have a cap. Rise Caster Level not.
Also, try counterspell with "high chance to fail or simply fail" is not a mage killer.
While Arcane Spellcaster is 100% chance to counter.

[Jormengand]

I've heard that Psions can make good mage slayers. I'm not sure how good they'd be in an E6 game, but magic/psionic transparency doesn't apply to feats, making the mage slayer line a lot better.

They lose access to the ludicrous immunities afforded by Slayer levels, but they retain Ego Whip (good for messing with Sorcerers), Dispel Psionics, Escape Detection and Eradicate Invisibility. They're decent, and also retain the ability to mess with everyone else.

[The_Jette]

Wish can be counterspelled only by Wish. Arcane Fusion can be counterpelled only by Arcane Fusion.
So, divine spellcaster cant dispell that.
Battlemagic perception + Improved Counterspell + Reactive Counterspell = Easy counterspell.

I'm not entirely familiar with E6, but isn't the point of that playstyle that there aren't high level spells available at all? The characters stop leveling at level 6, and can only gain more lower level abilities by adventuring. So, the point that Wish can only be countered by Wish (which is by itself a debatable statement) wouldn't really matter, since none of the characters would be able to cast Wish. And, if your DM is making you face something that can cast 9th level spells without difficulty in a E6 campaign, that kind of indicates that you should find a new DM.

[Venger]

Wish can be counterspelled only by Wish. Arcane Fusion can be counterpelled only by Arcane Fusion.
So, divine spellcaster cant dispell that.
Battlemagic perception + Improved Counterspell + Reactive Counterspell = Easy counterspell.


Universal spells cannot be countered with the Improved Counterspell feat because universal spells lack a school ("Universal" is not itself a school). They can absolutely be countered with Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, or other effects which counter a spell irrespective of which spell it is.

As Jormengand says, the build has ample ways to nullify universal spells. aside from battlemagic perception, all the spells you named specifically are irrelevant because no one can cast them in e6.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

the build has ample ways to nullify universal spells

Really? Explain it. Dispel magic is not enough.

[Raxxius]

I'm not entirely familiar with E6, but isn't the point of that playstyle that there aren't high level spells available at all? The characters stop leveling at level 6, and can only gain more lower level abilities by adventuring. So, the point that Wish can only be countered by Wish (which is by itself a debatable statement) wouldn't really matter, since none of the characters would be able to cast Wish. And, if your DM is making you face something that can cast 9th level spells without difficulty in a E6 campaign, that kind of indicates that you should find a new DM.

absolutely, it's like me saying I can counter all spellcasters all the time by just using power word kill when they're level 1.

If in E6 your opponent has access to magic spells 3 levels higher than your max then you're more likely to just stomped because you're facing things 8-10 levels above you.

[ATHATH]

Really? Explain it. Dispel magic is not enough.
Let's go through all of the Universal spells in the game. For the purposes of this discussion, we shall assume that only 3rd level and below spells will be castable (a few methods exist to cast 4th level+ spells in E6, but almost all of them are TO/really high PO).

Arcane Fusion: Higher than 3rd level
Greater Arcane Fusion: Higher than 3rd level
Arcane Mark: Oh no, the enemy Wizard wrote !@#$ in invisible, magical letters on my forehead! Whatever shall I do?
Arcane Spellsurge: Higher than 3rd level
Dragoneye Rune: See Arcane Mark, but now the Wizard can scry on you more easily (if he somehow survives the battle or comes back from the dead).
Enhance Familiar: Oh no, the enemy Wizard gave a minor buff to a familiar! Whatever shall I do?
Familiar Pocket: Oh no, the enemy Wizard put his familiar in a tiny extradimensional space! Whatever shall I do?
Fortify Familiar: See Enhance Familiar.
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability: Higher than 3rd level
Limited Wish: Higher than 3rd level
Mystic Surge: Higher than 3rd level
Permanency: Higher than 3rd level
Prestidigitation: There's some potential here, but if you can't even deal with a cantrip, you don't deserve to call yourself a mage hunter.
Rary's Arcane Conversion: Higher than 3rd level
Symbol: Higher than 3rd level
Wish: Higher than 3rd level

In short: Yes, Dispel Magic IS enough (unless you're fighting multiple mages/mage-like creatures, a single high-level mage/mage-like creature that your DM shouldn't have thrown at you, or a single high-level mage/mage-like creature that has tons of loot on him).

[Goladar]

Let's go through all of the Universal spells in the game. For the purposes of this discussion, we shall assume that only 3rd level and below spells will be castable (a few methods exist to cast 4th level+ spells in E6, but almost all of them are TO/really high PO).

Arcane Fusion: Higher than 3rd level
Greater Arcane Fusion: Higher than 3rd level
Arcane Mark: Oh no, the enemy Wizard wrote !@#$ in invisible, magical letters on my forehead! Whatever shall I do?
Arcane Spellsurge: Higher than 3rd level
Dragoneye Rune: See Arcane Mark, but now the Wizard can scry on you more easily (if he somehow survives the battle or comes back from the dead).
Enhance Familiar: Oh no, the enemy Wizard gave a minor buff to a familiar! Whatever shall I do?
Familiar Pocket: Oh no, the enemy Wizard put his familiar in a tiny extradimensional space! Whatever shall I do?
Fortify Familiar: See Enhance Familiar.
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability: Higher than 3rd level
Limited Wish: Higher than 3rd level
Mystic Surge: Higher than 3rd level
Permanency: Higher than 3rd level
Prestidigitation: There's some potential here, but if you can't even deal with a cantrip, you don't deserve to call yourself a mage hunter.
Rary's Arcane Conversion: Higher than 3rd level
Symbol: Higher than 3rd level
Wish: Higher than 3rd level

In short: Yes, Dispel Magic IS enough (unless you're fighting multiple mages/mage-like creatures, a single high-level mage/mage-like creature that your DM shouldn't have thrown at you, or a single high-level mage/mage-like creature that has tons of loot on him).

I believe in twelfth chances.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, this is regarding E6, so no character is above 6th level, nobody has spells higher than 3rd level, and most magic items are unavailable because nobody is able to create them. Most things that would increase your caster level are not going to be available. Metamagic rods cannot be created by E6 characters, so they're not available. Buff durations aren't long enough to keep even hour/level buffs active all day, so casters can't rely on those. You can't get enough levels of a given prestige class to use alternate costs for Persistent Spell, and the E6 sudden metamagic feat requires you to take it six times to get Persistent Spell 1/day, so it's extremely slim that you'll ever encounter an enemy arcane spellcaster with persistent spells or even pre-cast buffs. You won't need to counterspell Prestidigitation or Arcane Mark, so no need to worry about universal spells that can actually be used in E6.

That Paladin build can be a Dragonborn of Bahamut with wings for natural flight, so you're not going to have any problems getting into melee range with them. You can use armor spikes and grapple them if you want. You can make it a charger build and even use a dive attack with Rhino's Rush for triple damage. Your saving throws will be through the roof, and at that level touch AC is basically just preventing a bit of damage, and you've got mostly d10s for hp. It's not a fight-fire-with-fire approach, but it's E6 so an enemy spellcaster will run out of spells, but you'll never run out of attack rolls.

[King539]

Another mage. :smalltongue:

[tedcahill2]

Maybe I titled this thread poorly. Any character that can close on a mage and deal enough damage is technically a mage slayer. I was looking to capitalize on abilities that directly counter what mages can do.

That's why I'm looking at things like mettle, spell reflection, and evasion, in concert with a good touch AC and high saves. What I'm looking for is help determining the best combination of these abilities and where to get them from.

The cleric/paladin build is fine I'm sure, but if he's caught of guard by a mage he's no better at resisting spells (outside of cha to saves), than anyone else. He has no special abilities to counter the effects of magic.

It's not enough to just deal damage and kill a mage, you have to have skills and abilities that directly counter them, in my opinion, to fit the mage slayer archetype.

I do sort of like divine counterspell though, that's a pretty solid addition to the build.

How about Mnk2/Rog2/Rng1/Clr1?

Would have Wis to AC, Evasion, Invisible Eye fight style (from UA), Spell Reflection (evasion ACF), Divine Counterspell (cleric ACF), Favored Enemy (arcanists) picking up the nemesis feat, Sneak Attack 1d6, Bonus Feats (from Monk), Decisive Strike (monk ACF), Track, Spiritual Connection (ranger ACF), +3 BAB and +7F/+8R/+4W.

[Flickerdart]

If your build includes Paladin 5, I would not trade out the paladin special mount. Instead, look to the alternate mount rules in the DMG. Essentially, the rules are: any quadruped with CR -3 (or CR -4 if it flies) is a valid mount. This means that for a 5th level paladin, a CR2 creature sans flight, or a CR1 flying creature, is fair game for a mount. A small paladin (such as a halfling) can easily get a CR 1/2 mount with the Half-Celestial template. Half-Celestials get 10 resistance to acid, cold, and electricity, which helps against a blaster mage. They also get 10+HD spell resistance, and some helpful spell-like abilities.

CR 1/2 basically limits you to a donkey, war pony, or monstrous centipede, but they're all pretty decent mounts, especially considering that the mount bonuses apply to them (+2 HD, +4 armor, 6 intelligence, etc). You can also forego the template and look at some Medium CR1 flyers (giant bees have fly speed 80).

If you are willing to risk non-flight, the options get really good:

Animated objects have construct immunities, can move up to 70 feet, and have special grappling options (grapple enemies 3 sizes larger, blind the enemy during the grapple, deal constrict damage).
Black bears, wolverines, bison, dire badgers, and boars can smell invisible casters using scent. Worgs can also trip the enemy.
Cheetahs can not only use scent, but can charge 10 times their speed - great for closing the distance.
Constrictor snakes, leopards, and giant and soliders can use scent, and also grapple well. Leopards even have pounce.
Crocodiles and dire weasels are also great grapplers. Huge monstrous centipedes are great grapplers due to their size, and you can even be a Medium or Large paladin!
Blink dogs can use dimension door.
Large vipers can swim, climb, grapple well, and have a great poison.
Thoqqua have elemental immunities and a burrow speed, making them excellent ambushers. Of course, you'll need a fireproof saddle if you actually want to ride one.


Any one of these creatures would be great to have on your side when facing a caster, especially considering that they all get improved evasion and use your base saving throws.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe I titled this thread poorly. Any character that can close on a mage and deal enough damage is technically a mage slayer. I was looking to capitalize on abilities that directly counter what mages can do.

That's why I'm looking at things like mettle, spell reflection, and evasion, in concert with a good touch AC and high saves. What I'm looking for is help determining the best combination of these abilities and where to get them from.

The cleric/paladin build is fine I'm sure, but if he's caught of guard by a mage he's no better at resisting spells (outside of cha to saves), than anyone else. He has no special abilities to counter the effects of magic.

It's not enough to just deal damage and kill a mage, you have to have skills and abilities that directly counter them, in my opinion, to fit the mage slayer archetype.

I do sort of like divine counterspell though, that's a pretty solid addition to the build.

How about Mnk2/Rog2/Rng1/Clr1?

Would have Wis to AC, Evasion, Invisible Eye fight style (from UA), Spell Reflection (evasion ACF), Divine Counterspell (cleric ACF), Favored Enemy (arcanists) picking up the nemesis feat, Sneak Attack 1d6, Bonus Feats (from Monk), Decisive Strike (monk ACF), Track, Spiritual Connection (ranger ACF), +3 BAB and +7F/+8R/+4W.

Divine Counterspell still requires you to ready an action to use it, just like any counterspelling, unless you also include Divine Defiance. I think you would be better off keeping the Turn Undead to pick that up, and put a wand chamber in your weapon with a Wand of Dispel Magic. Edit: Also grab the Travel domain while you're at it, just one round of Freedom of Movement is enough to activate something that gets rid of a disabling effect.

Evasion isn't important IMO, it just prevents damage, and then you're out of the surprise round and you can do your counterspelling and get your hits in. Touch AC and Spell Reflection are in the same boat, disable effects generally don't need to make touch attacks (there are a few exceptions like Kelpstrand, but those are few and far between), so it's just going to prevent some damage. An enemy spellcaster isn't going to deal enough damage to take you out before you get to act, and after the surprise round you can keep them from casting if you build it right. You can throw in a few levels of Warblade for Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge if you're worried about surprise rounds and touch AC.

If you're getting sneak attack, you may as well go Whisper Gnome (RoS) and take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike. That's a supernatural ability, so it ignores SR and can't be dispelled or otherwise removed except by something like Iron Heart Surge.

If you want to use cheese, take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and give it a 2nd level spell 3/day lesser power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm) (as the Darkness and Hold Person abilities) for Silence. It's automatically an intelligent item due to being an item familiar and you can add lesser and greater powers and even a special purpose via normal item creation methods: "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)" Intelligent items are treated as constructs, they're creatures and they get actions in combat, and they can activate their own abilities. It can ready an action to use Silence if an enemy casts a spell with a verbal component. If it targets the Silence on a point in space near the opponent they don't get a saving throw or SR, they're automatically silenced and their spell automatically fails.

[Florian]

@tedcahill2:

The stuff you list helps you tank/survive a caster, but it doesn´t help you counter the most regular defenses a caster can have in that range bracket, namely invisibility, illusions, mirror image, flight, blink. This´ll mostly be in place before the encounter starts. That´s why tracking and a wolf companion will be useful, as well as high perception and the blind fighting feat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) gets you a Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with the trip attack ability, and even gets it to 5 HD. If you can apply the Warbeast template (MM2) it gets one more HD, which gives it an extra feat. Gaining four HD also gives it just enough skill points for two cross-class ranks in Spellcraft, so its 6th level feat can be Mage Slayer.

Edit: If you're not a Ranger or Druid, you can also make it Magebred (ECS), but Druids and Rangers are specifically prohibited from gaining Magebred companions.