Practical Lichdom - How would you scheme to build your phylactery at level 11?

[Segev]

In the LA thread, the discussion of the lich's LA brought up just how expensive that 120,000 gp crafting cost is compared to level 11 wealth. While we all know a few ways to abuse D&D's RAW about economics to create infinite amounts of gold, most DMs won't let that fly on grounds amounting to, "It's just not worth that much now that you've mass produced it," or, "Where are you going to find somebody who has 50,000 gp every day to buy your stuff?" or similar.

With that in mind, but allowing for DMs to have different considerations as to "why" wealth works as it does and what constitutes gp value, how would you try to plan for your would-be lich to make something that expensive at or by level 11? Consider both flat-out how to get the resources and why you'd be still willing to make that rather than other magic items which give you similar or better benefits for cheaper.

When making practical assumptions about what the DM will and won't allow, please give some indication of what paradigm this hypothetical DM is operating from.

As an example, if a "120,000 gp" cost to build it can be substituted with gems or other raw materials, even if the DM isn't going to allow you to use wall of iron or wall of salt to make large amounts of material and sell them for gp, you could arguably take them as raw materials and use Craft skills on them to make items worth 3x the value of the raw materials. 40,000 gp of raw materials crafted into your phylactery becomes a 120,000 construction cost item.

But maybe your DM doesn't view it that way; maybe the cost is representative of rarity of ingredients or something.



Anyway, if you have a real DM you want to use as your basis for your hypothesis, or just have some hypothetical ways to look at it, please explain those and then explain how you'd work within that DM's restrictions to get a phylactery. Again, with attention to why you'd want to as opposed to magic items worth 120,000 gp. (This limitation suggests to me that somehow you might talk a DM into the quest to make a phylactery, but not to get arbitrary magic items worth that much.)

Finally, please do not assume "talk your DM into waiving the cost" is a prima facie solution. Obviously, if you can do that, it works. But let's assume the DM wants to keep the thematic cost in there, even if he's letting you be somewhat creative in order to meet it.

Sorry for all the dancing around with restrictions, but "P.O." questions, I think, require some measure of this to define what is "practical." If you've got ideas, I'd love to hear them! (These could also apply to NPCs for DMs who aren't just willing to hand-wave the costs.)

[Gildedragon]

Legacy Items or Ancestral Relics are probably a good idea.
Alternatively: crafting a few thousand GP of stuff every level and setting it aside in a "phylactery fund"
Maybe buy some land and use the earnings from that land to buy phylactery stuff.
Bonus of that: you get your own tomb!

[the_david]

Legacy Items or Ancestral Relics are probably a good idea.
Alternatively: crafting a few thousand GP of stuff every level and setting it aside in a "phylactery fund"
Maybe buy some land and use the earnings from that land to buy phylactery stuff.

The friendly shopkeep has turned into an evil Lich! Oh no!

Edit: Make a deal with the devil? Kind of handwavy though, and the devil will come around someday to claim your soul anyway...

[Gildedragon]

The friendly shopkeep has turned into an evil Lich! Oh no!

Not a bad idea. Keep the GPs flowing in, use the Transference spell to never lower one's XP. Sell cheap to adventurers so they'll protect you from paladins...
Integrate a nipple-clamp effect into the armor (for free) so that as the adventurers get walloped you get little bottles of XP


Edit: actually this may be a reasonable way to pay for the phylactery. Turn the GP into a 5x larger XP requirement. Set an ambrosia farm up. Profit!

[noob]

Dwarfsplode a metropolis in existence and tax it.

[Inevitability]

Edit: Make a deal with the devil? Kind of handwavy though, and the devil will come around someday to claim your soul anyway...

According to FC II, a fiendish pact gives you 60% of your current wealth at best. If you want to fully finance your phylactery with that, you need 15th-level WBL. If you're okay with it adding to your existing wealth, you can instead afford a phylactery at ECL 12 WBL (before the pact).

Still not as early as the template implies you can afford a phylactery, but closer.

[InvisibleBison]

A relatively simple solution is to travel to the Elemental Plane of Earth and seek out a gemstone worth 40,000 gp, which you then craft into a 120,000 gp doodad (probably via fabricate). I'd allow this sort of thing were I DMing, because it's a verisimilitudinous course of action and because I'd be able to turn it into a nice miniquest.

[Gildedragon]

According to FC II, a fiendish pact gives you 60% of your current wealth at best. If you want to fully finance your phylactery with that, you need 15th-level WBL. If you're okay with it adding to your existing wealth, you can instead afford a phylactery at ECL 12 WBL (before the pact).

Still not as early as the template implies you can afford a phylactery, but closer.

Huh. The lvl 15 pact actually makes a lot of sense. It is an LA +4 template so go to 15, lich up, delete your past 4 wizard levels to be lvl 11 wizard.
Plus the fiendish pact is sorta unspeakably evil

[noob]

Alternatively multiclass enough so that at level 11 you stop gaining XP and then you can adventure until you have the gold to build the phylactery at level 11.

[Inevitability]

Alternatively multiclass enough so that at level 11 you stop gaining XP and then you can adventure until you have the gold to build the phylactery at level 11.

A kobold sorcerer 6 with 5 dips, Practiced Spellcaster, and that one draconic rite that grants more sorcerer casting would fit these criteria. They can't cast any spells above 3rd-level, though.

[Segev]

A relatively simple solution is to travel to the Elemental Plane of Earth and seek out a gemstone worth 40,000 gp, which you then craft into a 120,000 gp doodad (probably via fabricate). I'd allow this sort of thing were I DMing, because it's a verisimilitudinous course of action and because I'd be able to turn it into a nice miniquest.

Variations on this are the best I've been able to come up with, too. The question it raises, though, is why only do this for your phylactery? Why not use that 120,000 gp doodad as the core of a 240,000 gp magic item? There needs to be a reason to make the phylactery rather than "better" investments in other magic items, too, I think.

[noob]

You can not do this because magic items says they need gold to be crafted.
In fact if you have a pile of 5000 gp and was trapped on a five square plane with no access to any other material you would be able to craft a 10000 gp value magic item while with every material in the universe and everything and zillions of people at your service but no gold you would be unable to make any magic item.

[Segev]

You can not do this because magic items says they need gold to be crafted.
In fact if you have a pile of 5000 gp and was trapped on a five square plane with no access to any other material you would be able to craft a 10000 gp value magic item while with every material in the universe and everything and zillions of people at your service but no gold you would be unable to make any magic item.

That's not technically what the rules say. The rules say that you need x gp worth of materials. This does mean that, by the RAW, you could use x gp in actual gp. Or that you could use x gp worth of herbs and woods. Or that you could use x gp worth of trade goods, gems, or salt.

Now, it's supposed to represent the exotic and expensive components that go into item crafting. The shell of a rare beetle found only in the far continent rainforest might be easy enough to get for a teleporting mage with enough K:Nature and Survival (especially if he brings expert help), but still worth 20,000 gp if sold in the open market to item crafters who need its rare and magical properties.

Heck, you could potentially gauge actions that have listed gp costs as contributing to the price. Spells you cast to acquire ingredients that can't be gathered more cheaply might add their "cost to pay somebody to cast that spell" value, if the item doesn't already have a market value.

So... yeah. It's probably intended that these costs be handled either by straight gp-purchase of "expensive ingredients" for the item, or that the PCs go on quests to get these ingredients which may or may not qualify as trade goods that are part of their loot from said quests.

[InvisibleBison]

Variations on this are the best I've been able to come up with, too. The question it raises, though, is why only do this for your phylactery? Why not use that 120,000 gp doodad as the core of a 240,000 gp magic item? There needs to be a reason to make the phylactery rather than "better" investments in other magic items, too, I think.

The earth elementals have been farming the gemstones of the Elemental Plane of Earth for countless generations. These "domesticated" varieties of gemstone lack the magical resonance found in the "wild" gemstones on the Material Plane (the earth elementals have bred this trait out because it makes gemstones taste bad). However, a phylactary isn't magic in its own right - it's merely a receptacle for your soul, so it doesn't need to be magically resonant.


You can not do this because magic items says they need gold to be crafted.
In fact if you have a pile of 5000 gp and was trapped on a five square plane with no access to any other material you would be able to craft a 10000 gp value magic item while with every material in the universe and everything and zillions of people at your service but no gold you would be unable to make any magic item.

This is false. The gp value given in the item creation requirements is an abstraction for a variety of magical supplies worth that amount of gold. If you look at the section in the DMG describing the creation of magic items (p. 285 - 288), almost all of them say that you need "a supply of materials". The exceptions are potions, which require "ingredients"; scrolls, which require "a supply of choice writing materials"; and wands, which require "a small supply of materials". None of them say you need a heap of gold coins.

[The_Jette]

In the LA thread, the discussion of the lich's LA brought up just how expensive that 120,000 gp crafting cost is compared to level 11 wealth. While we all know a few ways to abuse D&D's RAW about economics to create infinite amounts of gold, most DMs won't let that fly on grounds amounting to, "It's just not worth that much now that you've mass produced it," or, "Where are you going to find somebody who has 50,000 gp every day to buy your stuff?" or similar.

With that in mind, but allowing for DMs to have different considerations as to "why" wealth works as it does and what constitutes gp value, how would you try to plan for your would-be lich to make something that expensive at or by level 11? Consider both flat-out how to get the resources and why you'd be still willing to make that rather than other magic items which give you similar or better benefits for cheaper.

When making practical assumptions about what the DM will and won't allow, please give some indication of what paradigm this hypothetical DM is operating from.

As an example, if a "120,000 gp" cost to build it can be substituted with gems or other raw materials, even if the DM isn't going to allow you to use wall of iron or wall of salt to make large amounts of material and sell them for gp, you could arguably take them as raw materials and use Craft skills on them to make items worth 3x the value of the raw materials. 40,000 gp of raw materials crafted into your phylactery becomes a 120,000 construction cost item.

But maybe your DM doesn't view it that way; maybe the cost is representative of rarity of ingredients or something.



Anyway, if you have a real DM you want to use as your basis for your hypothesis, or just have some hypothetical ways to look at it, please explain those and then explain how you'd work within that DM's restrictions to get a phylactery. Again, with attention to why you'd want to as opposed to magic items worth 120,000 gp. (This limitation suggests to me that somehow you might talk a DM into the quest to make a phylactery, but not to get arbitrary magic items worth that much.)

Finally, please do not assume "talk your DM into waiving the cost" is a prima facie solution. Obviously, if you can do that, it works. But let's assume the DM wants to keep the thematic cost in there, even if he's letting you be somewhat creative in order to meet it.

Sorry for all the dancing around with restrictions, but "P.O." questions, I think, require some measure of this to define what is "practical." If you've got ideas, I'd love to hear them! (These could also apply to NPCs for DMs who aren't just willing to hand-wave the costs.)

Hire yourself out to a King who wants to forge an army. Use Wall of Iron + Fabricate and the "Craft: Armor/Weapon" skill to completely deck out his army with Plate Male and whatever metal shields/swords that he wants. Use the money that you made in order to fund your phylactory. If it's a rich, evil king, all the better. Follow that up by selling your king out to a demon lord for even more gold and magic so that the lands are now ruled by a Demon-King with access to a fully decked out army, and you serve as the Kingdom's Wizard for all eternity.

[InvisibleBison]

Hire yourself out to a King who wants to forge an army. Use Wall of Iron + Fabricate and the "Craft: Armor/Weapon" skill to completely deck out his army with Plate Male and whatever metal shields/swords that he wants. Use the money that you made in order to fund your phylactory. If it's a rich, evil king, all the better. Follow that up by selling your king out to a demon lord for even more gold and magic so that the lands are now ruled by a Demon-King with access to a fully decked out army, and you serve as the Kingdom's Wizard for all eternity.

If this king is so wealthy as to be able to afford to buy this much materiel, but so weak that it's actually useful for him to do so, why don't you just steal his money?

[The_Jette]

If this king is so wealthy as to be able to afford to buy this much materiel, but so weak that it's actually useful for him to do so, why don't you just steal his money?

120,000 gold isn't that much for a king, in D&D. If you look at the prices for running a kingdom, D&D economics go WAY outside what a king should realistically have, otherwise PC's would be carrying around the entire world's GDP in their bags of holding. Besides, why steal a king's money and have an entire kingdom looking for you when you can trick him out of that, plus a place to hang your head and glean experiment victims... I mean, subjects?

[sleepyphoenixx]

If this king is so wealthy as to be able to afford to buy this much materiel, but so weak that it's actually useful for him to do so, why don't you just steal his money?

Stealing the money gets adventurers sent after you.
And the king isn't necessarily weak. An army of low level mooks is kind of necessary to control the kingdom, remove bandits and monsters, keep the peace, put down uppity nobles and all that.
Even an epic character doesn't want to do that all by himself (even if he could).
All that MWK full plate, swords and shields has to come from somewhere, and mundane crafters take ages to craft even one set.
So you need a wizard for that, and it might as well be you.

Providing the kings army with quality equipment to get your foot in the door for a court wizard position not only avoids that, it also sets you up as the power behind the throne and places the resources of a kingdom at your fingertips.

[InvisibleBison]

120,000 gold isn't that much for a king, in D&D. If you look at the prices for running a kingdom, D&D economics go WAY outside what a king should realistically have, otherwise PC's would be carrying around the entire world's GDP in their bags of holding. Besides, why steal a king's money and have an entire kingdom looking for you when you can trick him out of that, plus a place to hang your head and glean experiment victims... I mean, subjects?

You raise good points. I thought that stealing the gold would be faster, but it turns out I was way off base.

[Segev]

Hm. How large a settlement might one need to be browsing before buying the whole settlement would cost 120,000 gp or more? Could the would-be lich perform his work in secret all around the settlement until he's ready to complete his vile ritual and transform the whole thing into his phylactery? And are we talking about a village or a small town? A large town? A small city?

[The_Jette]

Hm. How large a settlement might one need to be browsing before buying the whole settlement would cost 120,000 gp or more? Could the would-be lich perform his work in secret all around the settlement until he's ready to complete his vile ritual and transform the whole thing into his phylactery? And are we talking about a village or a small town? A large town? A small city?

That brings a whole new meaning to "put his heart and soul into this village."

[InvisibleBison]

Hm. How large a settlement might one need to be browsing before buying the whole settlement would cost 120,000 gp or more? Could the would-be lich perform his work in secret all around the settlement until he's ready to complete his vile ritual and transform the whole thing into his phylactery? And are we talking about a village or a small town? A large town? A small city?

A simple house costs 1,000 gp (DMG p. 101). Assuming 1 family per house and an average of 4 people per family, a settlement would need to have 480 people for housing them all to cost 120,000 gp. That's a minimum, of course, because it ignores the possibility of more expensive houses, and of any infrastructure beyond the houses in the settlement.

[Trekkin]

I've DMed a few 3.5 games in which players became liches, so if you want my two cents:

D&D, I think, has two different kinds of gp. One is the actual gold exchanged as currency for mundane things, the other a purely hypothetical measure of relative magical power. Yes, a holy avenger "costs 120,630 gp", but would you trade one for 603,150 gallons of ale? How about twelve million guinea pigs? (Okay, that's from Pathfinder, but I digress.)

The value of a phylactery seems to me to fall squarely in the latter camp. Trying to cheese the gp requirement misses the point; it's not worth a literal quantity of gold, just an abstract measure (of questionable accuracy) of how much more powerful it makes a character. Since we also have suggestions for how much more powerful PCs should get from defeating enemies in GP terms, it is possible to translate the value that way: a phylactery is worth between 17 and 18 encounters for a party of 11th level.

That, I think, is how I would handle it: not in economic terms, but in crafting a chain of events with that many level-appropriate obstacles. This approach also lets me give the aspirant lich opportunities to accrue the kind of arcane resources and other ancillary things to feel like a lich thematically. Just becoming a lich full stop because an 11-th level sorcerer took twelve million guinea pigs to LichMart is not only silly, it makes for a very vulnerable lich, one absent the horde of undead minions and library of magical esoterica and so forth. Critically, it also gives me opportunities for the other players to become equivalently powerful in whatever ways they happen to value.

That also helps with the question of worth. Paying 120,000 gp for the the lich template is, as has been rightly pointed out, a very bad deal. Going on a quest with 18 level-appropriate encounters that ends with the new lich becoming the deathless master of their own dark domain of evil magic, every bit the terror that the fluff if not the crunch says they should be? I think I can make that a compelling story where both the lich and the other characters get value for hypothetical money out of it.

[MHCD]

That's not technically what the rules say. The rules say that you need x gp worth of materials. This does mean that, by the RAW, you could use x gp in actual gp. Or that you could use x gp worth of herbs and woods. Or that you could use x gp worth of trade goods, gems, or salt.

Now, it's supposed to represent the exotic and expensive components that go into item crafting. The shell of a rare beetle found only in the far continent rainforest might be easy enough to get for a teleporting mage with enough K:Nature and Survival (especially if he brings expert help), but still worth 20,000 gp if sold in the open market to item crafters who need its rare and magical properties.

Heck, you could potentially gauge actions that have listed gp costs as contributing to the price. Spells you cast to acquire ingredients that can't be gathered more cheaply might add their "cost to pay somebody to cast that spell" value, if the item doesn't already have a market value.

So... yeah. It's probably intended that these costs be handled either by straight gp-purchase of "expensive ingredients" for the item, or that the PCs go on quests to get these ingredients which may or may not qualify as trade goods that are part of their loot from said quests.

I think this is a great way to handle it, particularly when trying to take the template earlier than WBL might allow. Expenditures of resources of all forms (including gold, magic, and perhaps most significantly, time) in a grand adventure or a series of mini side-quests over several levels, combined with research, travel, and crafting, may make things better for everyone. The DM sees a lot of sincere work on behalf of the player - which tends to help with negotiations, go figure, and all the required accompanying roleplaying doesn't hurt either; and the player gets the template they want - which might even be appreciated all the more (both in and out of game) for all the work that went into it (in and out of game).

A DM of mine did something along those lines when I was transitioning into a dry lich before having the necessary wealth. It took investments over time in collecting ingredients, refining materials, sacrificing magic items, and expending spell slots - in side quests or in daily rituals, and of course, the majority of my net worth, but it worked. The details may have been as arbitrary as some other "breaking WBL trick", but it felt different for everyone, since it was, "I'm serious - let's discuss how I can show it" instead of, "how can I work the system".

So really, whatever works for each group.

[Malroth]

Lets see how Dark craft GP stacks up

Find a village and charm/dominate/suggest them into your control

Lv 11 venerable grey elf wizard 18 int+2 racial +3 age +4 enhancement + 6 Inherent (is high enough level to bind Efreeti and is evil anyway) = 33 INT

take 10 + 14 skill ranks + 11 Int mod +2 masterwork tool +20 Guidence of the Avatar +6 Morale (mind control a Bard or Marshal) +4 aid another (your summoned demon and your mind controlled bard) +1 Ceremony +2 Altar +1 Desecrate +2 Unhallow +2 summoned demonic witness +1 Public location +1 more than 10 followers +1 more than 100 followers +1 torture +1 demonic disfigurement +1 victim is good +1 is lv 1-5 +1 is a race hated by diety +1 willing but controlled gives a guaranteed Knowledge religion roll of 83 which grants you 415 dark crafting gold pices per commoner which you spend on scrolls of Fabricate to create magic item crafting materials worth 1245 each . 100 such sacrifices (aka the whole mind controlled village) and you should have enough wealth to create your Phylacery.

[unseenmage]

Create Water + Water to Acid (St) works very nicely as acid is a weapon in D&D-verse and destroyed on use.
Keeps from flooding the market too badly.
All totalled tou still make a tidy sum even accounting for bottling be it in vial, flask, or barrel.
I like to put both spells into a Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a).


The Elation & Distilled Joy spells from the Book of Exalted Deeds are nice too as liquid ambrosia is also a consumable.

Additionally, using Greater Teleport and Plane Shift you can sell in every metropolis in a given campaign setting over and over. Sigil and the City of Brass are fan favorites.

Added to this we usually have settlements gp limits reset seasonally.

An assuption that the Mercane exist helps as well. At our table they are the neutral party who facilitates commerce between the great alignment powers of the setting.
Not every angel knows their dealings with the Mercane profit the Devils/Demons and vice versa but it is implicit.
The highest echelons of our Mercane society will buy wishes from powerful outsiders to make rediculous custom magic items to order.
If there is a craftsman who can do the job instead then so be it; the Mercane only care about the profit, not how they come by it.

The point being, between there being multiple metropolises in any given gameworld and extraplanar merchant societies the question is how does one NOT find a way to offload infinite wealth?

[unseenmage]

Hm. How large a settlement might one need to be browsing before buying the whole settlement would cost 120,000 gp or more? Could the would-be lich perform his work in secret all around the settlement until he's ready to complete his vile ritual and transform the whole thing into his phylactery? And are we talking about a village or a small town? A large town? A small city?

Thats... thats delightful!
Definitely using this in future.

[Segev]

Lets see how Dark craft GP stacks up

Find a village and charm/dominate/suggest them into your control

Lv 11 venerable grey elf wizard 18 int+2 racial +3 age +4 enhancement + 6 Inherent (is high enough level to bind Efreeti and is evil anyway) = 33 INT

take 10 + 14 skill ranks + 11 Int mod +2 masterwork tool +20 Guidence of the Avatar +6 Morale (mind control a Bard or Marshal) +4 aid another (your summoned demon and your mind controlled bard) +1 Ceremony +2 Altar +1 Desecrate +2 Unhallow +2 summoned demonic witness +1 Public location +1 more than 10 followers +1 more than 100 followers +1 torture +1 demonic disfigurement +1 victim is good +1 is lv 1-5 +1 is a race hated by diety +1 willing but controlled gives a guaranteed Knowledge religion roll of 83 which grants you 415 dark crafting gold pices per commoner which you spend on scrolls of Fabricate to create magic item crafting materials worth 1245 each . 100 such sacrifices (aka the whole mind controlled village) and you should have enough wealth to create your Phylacery.Ooh, neat. What book's all this from? Vile Darkness, or something more obscure? I'm not familiar with these rules.

Thats... thats delightful!
Definitely using this in future.Glad you like it! If you figure out how big a settlement you need, let me know. Of course, the Dark craft thing Malroth wrote up is of similar conception, though whether the settlement-version requires killing the townsfolk is an open question.

Personally, I think it most thematic if you get one that's 120,000 gp plus 25 gp per summed HD of the town so that you can slaughter the town and get an army of undead zombies in their place in the bargain. You'd need to work animate dead and something to kill everybody in town into the ritual, or you'd have to kill them all more mundanely (and possibly personally) as part of the process, though. And you're technically not supplying black onyx with the extra town-value, so it might be a custom version of animate dead that you'd have to research. But then you can add other modifications, like "the undead are bound to the town in which they're created" or something.

[Crake]

Based on the 4800xp it takes to craft (normally 1/25th of the market value) our table has always played the lich's phylactery as having a 120k market value, thus costing 60k to make, which is much more reasonable for an 11th level character.

[Gildedragon]

Based on the 4800xp it takes to craft (normally 1/25th of the market value) our table has always played the lich's phylactery as having a 120k market value, thus costing 60k to make, which is much more reasonable for an 11th level character.

Except it explicitly requires 120kgp to create

[Crake]

Except it explicitly requires 120kgp to create

Yeah, I do see that now, it is a little awkward, because one of the players around my table just finished making their phylactery, at level 11 no less, and is just about to turn into a lich. Probs best I just don't mention anything for everyone's sake :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

Yeah, I do see that now, it is a little awkward, because one of the players around my table just finished making their phylactery, at level 11 no less, and is just about to turn into a lich. Probs best I just don't mention anything for everyone's sake :smalltongue:

They got a craft skill?
Just assume they used that to make the stuff. Got a 60k of raw materials, snafu-ed a couple times, made back 120k

[Godskook]

A side job as an artificer, spending your entire level 12 xp(11000xp) on crafting magic items yields 137,500g in surplus gold, after your spending on materials. Since you're crafting a unique good that's custom-made for the specific consumer's purpose, you're not having as dramatic an effect as conjuring salt would have.

[Trinoya]

The only time I became a lich as a player I used a cruddy old gold ring valued at around 100gp, and then a literal army of evil to raise local towns and villages for the rest. >__>

It only took about six months of raising and raiding to build up the wealth, and that was with it not being a major concern and having long travel times.


The most creative solutions I have seen as a DM involve players taking ownership of concepts (like love), constants (like tides), and objects (a moon). If a player can get, for example, a volcano that spews magic to be declared theirs then more power to them for turning it into that 120k requirement.

The easiest method, I suspect, at level 11 is abusing a thought bottle and item creation with RAW.

[Inevitability]

I wonder: a phylactery is a magic item, so perhaps a Wish could give you one? The used term of 'create' remains consistent throughout the Wish description, the lich description, and the phylactery description.

[Florian]

I´d be old school about that: Set up a wizards tower and a small dungeon, hire some bards to spread the word on me wanting to be a lich, wait for the inevitable do-gooders to show up and stop me, slaughter them for their gear, sell that to finance the phylactery.

[the_david]

Except it explicitly requires 120kgp to create

If you build a magic item using 60000 gp, the magic item would be worth 120000 gp. Not only can you now use the magic item to build your phylactery, but you've already build in 120000 gp worth of abjurations and wards to protect your precious...

A PC should be able to do this at level 11, an NPC should be able to do this at level 16...

[lord_khaine]

If you build a magic item using 60000 gp, the magic item would be worth 120000 gp. Not only can you now use the magic item to build your phylactery, but you've already build in 120000 gp worth of abjurations and wards to protect your precious...

Sadly it specifically costs 120.000 GP to create. So the only thing you can use your 120.000 gp item for is to sell it to fund the creation of your phylactery.

[the_david]

Sadly it specifically costs 120.000 GP to create. So the only thing you can use your 120.000 gp item for is to sell it to fund the creation of your phylactery.

Uhm, yeah. It appears you're right. A phylactery would be a magic item that costs 120000 gp to create, with no other perks beside the Lich template. Would it really be worth it to invest 120000 gp to become a Lich, with the level adjustment and all? Could you invest 120000 gp to create a magic item (worth 240000 gp) that would do the same thing?

Would it be worth it in Pathfinder because you would have to deal with the CR+2 instead of the LA+4? (At least wealth by level would be a bit higher.)

Edit: It just dawned on me that this is actually quite insane. If you'd actually accomplish this you'd have an effective character level of 15, but no wealth other than the money you invested in your phylactery... Isn't there a better alternative?

[Florian]

Would it be worth it in Pathfinder because you would have to deal with the CR+2 instead of the LA+4?

Did you ever notice that next to no PF build discussion uses monster races or templates?

[Segev]

I suppose that slaughtering hundreds or thousands to build up 120,000 gp would qualify as an unspeakably evil act. Though, as has been alluded to, would you. It be better off spending those ill-gotten gold pieces on 120,000-240,000 gp worth of other magic items?

Additionally, the idea of making a 120,000 gp magic item that is then used as the material cost for a phylactery is clever. It's like the mundane crafting thought for converting iron or salt worth 40,000 gp into 120,000 gp of goods. Slower and costs more XP, though, since a level 11 caster probably has fabricate by then and can do mundane crafting with one spell.


A big motivation for this thread was the question of why, if you could get 120,000 gp together at level 11, you would choose to spend it on being a lich. How might you be able to gather such wealth ahead of your allowable WBL that would be usable for a phylactery but not for generic, more powerful items?



As a house rule, perhaps a phylactery might be a magic item that is worth the full 240,000 gp as well as being the phylactery. Though, since liches are known for hiding their phylacteries, this seems unlikely.

[Coidzor]

Did you ever notice that next to no PF build discussion uses monster races or templates?

It's hard to, when monster races and templates are basically a Wild West of incredible GM variance. I think that's related, at any rate.

[lord_khaine]

Uhm, yeah. It appears you right. A phylactery would be a magic item that costs 120000 gp to create, with no other perks beside the Lich template. Would it really be worth it to invest 120000 gp to become a Lich, with the level adjustment and all? Could you invest 120000 gp to create a magic item (worth 240000 gp) that would do the same thing?


You most likely could not create anything like that. Or scratch that, you cant create anything like that, there are no other magic items that does the same. So the only chance to get something like that would be with GM permission. And in that case you could get it at level 1 for 5 gp. So its not a option for a basic rule discussion.

The Lich templace is most likely a perk that is worth that efford though. I mean its as close to functional immortality as you get. You can adventure without worrying about missing initiative or failing a save. For everyone else that could be game over. For you its just back to start, minus your current gear but + whatever xp you got. And for a arcane caster levels does more than for anyone else.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You most likely could not create anything like that. Or scratch that, you cant create anything like that, there are no other magic items that does the same. So the only chance to get something like that would be with GM permission. And in that case you could get it at level 1 for 5 gp. So its not a option for a basic rule discussion.

The Lich templace is most likely a perk that is worth that efford though. I mean its as close to functional immortality as you get. You can adventure without worrying about missing initiative or failing a save. For everyone else that could be game over. For you its just back to start, minus your current gear but + whatever xp you got. And for a arcane caster levels does more than for anyone else.

Any 15th level shaper or 17th level psion with Expanded Knowledge can do the same with Astral Seed and a Thought Bottle.
So can anyone capable of Planar Binding a Nightmare for Astral Projection. If you're worried about the few enemies that can destroy your silver cord get a contingent Last Breath or Revivify.

You don't get the other perks of being a lich, but you're also not getting 4 LA. Or paying your entire WBL for it.

[Segev]

If you compare Lichdom to the cost of paying for a true resurrection (26,530 gp for hiring a 17th level cleric to cast it), you could be back up and running within a day or so of death four and a half times (so 4 times, plus some gp left over) for the price of lichdom. This is assuming you just pay a few sp/day to a cleric to cast the spell for you should you ever fail to check in or some other agreed-upon signal let him know you're dead. Worst case scenario, it's still probably less than 10 days, and best case scenario, it's weighted much closer to 1 day than the 5.5 average of lichdom's restoration.

Do you expect to die 5 or more times after level 11? Is the 1d10 day wait period acceptable? Then the phylactery pays for itself in gp, at least. Whether the LA's a no-go or not is another question entirely.

[lord_khaine]

Any 15th level shaper or 17th level psion with Expanded Knowledge can do the same with Astral Seed and a Thought Bottle.
So can anyone capable of Planar Binding a Nightmare for Astral Projection. If you're worried about the few enemies that can destroy your silver cord get a contingent Last Breath or Revivify.

You don't get the other perks of being a lich, but you're also not getting 4 LA. Or paying your entire WBL for it.

Well.. that Astral Seed can do this dont really help all the arcane casters who usually turn into liches. Especially not since Though Bottles are a degree of broken that are generally banned most places. If your going that far into the realm of cheese you might as well just use the safe-game trick.

As for Planar Binding, thats its own can of worms, and repeatedly enslaving outsiders are certainly a lot more risky.


If you compare Lichdom to the cost of paying for a true resurrection (26,530 gp for hiring a 17th level cleric to cast it), you could be back up and running within a day or so of death four and a half times (so 4 times, plus some gp left over) for the price of lichdom. This is assuming you just pay a few sp/day to a cleric to cast the spell for you should you ever fail to check in or some other agreed-upon signal let him know you're dead. Worst case scenario, it's still probably less than 10 days, and best case scenario, it's weighted much closer to 1 day than the 5.5 average of lichdom's restoration.

Do you expect to die 5 or more times after level 11? Is the 1d10 day wait period acceptable? Then the phylactery pays for itself in gp, at least. Whether the LA's a no-go or not is another question entirely.

That on the other hand kinda require a 17th level cleric. In most cases those dont hang on the trees, and you could imagine them to regularly be busy with other things.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Use immovable valuable items to fund the crafting process. Encounter a stationary forcecage and summon monster vii trap (market price: 241 000 gp)? Craft that thing into a phylactery. Even with the 50% sale price, that should count as 120 000 gp of materials.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well.. that Astral Seed can do this dont really help all the arcane casters who usually turn into liches. Especially not since Though Bottles are a degree of broken that are generally banned most places. If your going that far into the realm of cheese you might as well just use the safe-game trick.

As for Planar Binding, thats its own can of worms, and repeatedly enslaving outsiders are certainly a lot more risky.


You can buy a casting of Astral Seed from any psion who knows it and Soul Crystal (MoI). Or just put a point in UPD and use some spells to boost it high enough to use a power stone.
You don't even need the Thought Bottle unless you're dying all the time. It's certainly less troublesome than +4 LA.

And that's not really a cheesy use of Planar Binding. You call an outsider, bargain with it to use its supernatural power on your behalf and pay it accordingly.
That's 1530gp according to the cost for spellcasting services, no danger, no effort for the Nightmare involved. And it lasts until you die or the Nightmare ends it.

Or you could just buy a scroll (4870gp). That one can be dispelled, but by level 11 you can afford to get some dispel protection. You'll want that anyway. Still a bargain compared to lichdom.
At least until you can cast Astral Projection yourself.

[Segev]

That on the other hand kinda require a 17th level cleric. In most cases those dont hang on the trees, and you could imagine them to regularly be busy with other things.

True. I used true resurrection because it doesn't require the cleric to have any pieces of you. If you're not getting TPK'd, you could have your party bring your corpse back to town for a raise dead or resurrection from lower-level clerics. Heck, you might have a raise dead-capable cleric in your party. That's only 5000 gp per raise, though admittedly the level loss is painful. Still oft less painful than a +4 LA, and you can die 24 times like that before the phylactery's paid for itself.

Though again, if you're dying 24 times, you're having to regain 24 levels, so...

[Elderand]

True. I used true resurrection because it doesn't require the cleric to have any pieces of you. If you're not getting TPK'd, you could have your party bring your corpse back to town for a raise dead or resurrection from lower-level clerics. Heck, you might have a raise dead-capable cleric in your party. That's only 5000 gp per raise, though admittedly the level loss is painful. Still oft less painful than a +4 LA, and you can die 24 times like that before the phylactery's paid for itself.

Though again, if you're dying 24 times, you're having to regain 24 levels, so...

You're looking at it purely in term of game design effectiveness. And you're not even doing that entirely properly because you're ignoring certain other factors. Like aging, true resurrection doesn't do diddly squat to your age category. True resurrection isn't immortality, just resuming your natural lifespan.
So to really compare a phylactery you need to take into account the cost of the various other benefits being undead offers, as well as the drawbacks.
And that's just for pure mechanical analysis.

You also have to take into account non mechanical benefits, in that being a lich is a totally independent form of immortality. you don't need to count on allies or minions to bring you back, you don't owe anyone anything when you become a lich. That is precisely the sort of benefit that would count for a very large part of the decision making process of anyone who would consider lichdom in the first place. because they're evil, and evil doesn't do cooperation well. When you don't believe you can trust anyone, becoming a lich is a lot more appealing than just comparing the cost of a phylactery and having someone else cast true resurection.

Becoming a lich is also a lot easier that the alternatives. Reincarnation can backfire by putting you in a nonfunctional body (IE, an animal), true resurrection is only cost effective for a few casting, in pathfinder the wizard secret of immortality only happens at level 20. Lichdom happens early, is independent and depending on setting/edition you can get vastly more power than what is given in the monster manual for 3.5.

[Segev]

All true, but the independence is overrated to a guy who works with a party already, and I don't think reincarnation actually can put you in a non-functional body. If it does, just try again. The agelessness is unimportant to the caster who is still in his youth, or even middle-aged. He can seek out methods for extending that (including the afore-mentioned reincarnation) that are more cost-effective later.

I do get the advantages, don't get me wrong. I just question their worth compared to what else you can do with 120,000 gp. The fact that a level 11 character can't afford that without somehow vastly exceeding WBL also means that you need to find a way to do so...without making one have to wonder if there's a better way to expend this level-inappropriate wealth.

So I guess part of what I'm looking for in this thread's OP is ideas for what a would-be lich could do to raise this money that would make raising it for non-phylactery purposes impractical, while leaving this a viable thing for a dedicated level 11 character to work towards.

[lord_khaine]

Use immovable valuable items to fund the crafting process. Encounter a stationary forcecage and summon monster vii trap (market price: 241 000 gp)? Craft that thing into a phylactery. Even with the 50% sale price, that should count as 120 000 gp of materials.

Still dont work. It specifically cost 120.000 GP to create. Not diverse items to a total value of 120.000 gp. Unless you can sell that trap to someone then its worth nothing to do.


You can buy a casting of Astral Seed from any psion who knows it and Soul Crystal (MoI). Or just put a point in UPD and use some spells to boost it high enough to use a power stone.
You don't even need the Thought Bottle unless you're dying all the time. It's certainly less troublesome than +4 LA.

Just how many and what sort of spells are talking about to make the dc 35 UPD skill check and activate the seed? That sounds like a rather massive investment to pull that off for a level 11 guy. And getting a power stone of it should be easier said that done, considering its a level 8 power that only a specific dicipline gets access to.


And that's not really a cheesy use of Planar Binding. You call an outsider, bargain with it to use its supernatural power on your behalf and pay it accordingly.
That's 1530gp according to the cost for spellcasting services, no danger, no effort for the Nightmare involved. And it lasts until you die or the Nightmare ends it.

Or you could just buy a scroll (4870gp). That one can be dispelled, but by level 11 you can afford to get some dispel protection. You'll want that anyway. Still a bargain compared to lichdom.
At least until you can cast Astral Projection yourself.

Oh no thats true enough, not if you actually pay for its services instead of trying to cheat and get them done for free.
Though the Nightmare is going to be the caster of Astral projection, and while it can take you along then the spell does state that

*You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them. *

So you do need the Nightmare to bring you along whereever you want to go. Also by a strict reading of the spell you can definitly say that it need to be a different plane you are projecting yourself into if you want to form an astral body. Thats going to be a problem as well. Even if you get the scroll and just cast it on your own.


True. I used true resurrection because it doesn't require the cleric to have any pieces of you. If you're not getting TPK'd, you could have your party bring your corpse back to town for a raise dead or resurrection from lower-level clerics. Heck, you might have a raise dead-capable cleric in your party. That's only 5000 gp per raise, though admittedly the level loss is painful. Still oft less painful than a +4 LA, and you can die 24 times like that before the phylactery's paid for itself.

Who said there was a party? the whole advantage of individual immortality as the one provided by being a Lich, is that it is independent of having teammates to drag your smoking boots back to be filled out again.


I do get the advantages, don't get me wrong. I just question their worth compared to what else you can do with 120,000 gp. The fact that a level 11 character can't afford that without somehow vastly exceeding WBL also means that you need to find a way to do so...without making one have to wonder if there's a better way to expend this level-inappropriate wealth.

Well.. i cant really see what you can do with 120.000 gp to make the preservation of your life more certain in the face of a unlucky roll on the encounter table.
Especially not if we from those 120.000 gp withdraw what it would cost you to get simular bonuses as the ones the lich template offers.
Lets say..
16k for health increase (assuming starting with a 14 con)
50k for natural armor increase.
76k For mantle of Faith if we say that dr 5/evil is equal to dr 15 blunt/magic
88k for rings giving 30 points of cold and electric resistance comparing to the lichs complete immunity.
And i dont know how to price the immunities that comes from the undead type by default, like critical hits and sneak attacks and mind affecting stuff.
It does of course also have the drawback of increased ECL, but for someone who are not a PC and dont have the plot armor that gives, then i would say this is a really good deal.


So I guess part of what I'm looking for in this thread's OP is ideas for what a would-be lich could do to raise this money that would make raising it for non-phylactery purposes impractical, while leaving this a viable thing for a dedicated level 11 character to work towards.

Hmm.. it is a really tough question though. I mean it is specifically GP you need to spend on making the phylactery. That means its really hard to earmark them towards something.
One thing that could be done though is to earn enough XP to hit level 12, and then instead settle down with some crafting feats and sell to traveling adventures. Perhaps offer them magic items for gathering materials to your phylactery.

[unseenmage]

...

So I guess part of what I'm looking for in this thread's OP is ideas for what a would-be lich could do to raise this money that would make raising it for non-phylactery purposes impractical, while leaving this a viable thing for a dedicated level 11 character to work towards.

Ah! See I misunderstood. Thought you were just after early entry WBL shenanigans to attain the thing.

Hmmm. Souls. I would say the collection and sale of souls should fulfill that evil requirement as well as be an enterprise not quite every murderhobo will partake of.

In PF it is laghably easy to collect and utilize souls. Several additional soul collecting spells and uses forn them from what I've seen.

Though IIRC 3.x has the better open market for souls.

[Florian]

So I guess part of what I'm looking for in this thread's OP is ideas for what a would-be lich could do to raise this money that would make raising it for non-phylactery purposes impractical, while leaving this a viable thing for a dedicated level 11 character to work towards.

Hm. Say, do you actually know the PF-specific fluff regarding liches and their phylactery?

[The_Jette]

Hm. Say, do you actually know the PF-specific fluff regarding liches and their phylactery?

Phylacteries store the soul of the Lich, and nothing more. It can take any form, with the most common being a box. It takes 120,000gp to create, as has been quoted before, but there are no mentions of "unspeakable evil" acts that must be done in order to create it. Then, again, if they're unspeakable, and they're mentioned... doesn't that make them speakable? Anyways, there's no requirement in the template that a lich be evil, though it does state that it's abhorrent to most. This is all SRD stuff, so it can be talked about without a "spoiler" box, right?

[MHCD]

@discussions of "why"

Being/Becoming a lich is all about playing the long game. It's all about secrets, research, crafting, waiting, planning, and plotting, without the distractions and hindrances of mortality (and as is often the case, morality) - and even if you "die", you go right back to the waiting and secrets, followed by more research, planning, and plotting. Eventually, it's worth it, and for a lich, that "eventually" can mean a long, long time from now - you have an eternity, after all.

There are mechanical or game design elements that give you advantages and disadvantages, and perhaps it may be fair to say that at least in part, being/becoming a lich is more about style than substance, but a lich doesn't care. He's to busy being a creepy, immortal, undead badass to be bothered with such questions - especially when he's busy with his secrets, research, crafting, waiting, planning, and plotting.

[Segev]

Still dont work. It specifically cost 120.000 GP to create. Not diverse items to a total value of 120.000 gp. Unless you can sell that trap to someone then its worth nothing to do.Technically, it doesn't take a literal pile of 120,000 gp. It takes materials and other consumables in the creation process that total to 120,000 gp; this is the standard conceit of item creation in D&D 3e and PF.


Hmm.. it is a really tough question though. I mean it is specifically GP you need to spend on making the phylactery. That means its really hard to earmark them towards something.
One thing that could be done though is to earn enough XP to hit level 12, and then instead settle down with some crafting feats and sell to traveling adventures. Perhaps offer them magic items for gathering materials to your phylactery.

Even this, though, is something you could do to raise gp for any purpose.

Heck, the "buy and sell souls" gambit still gets you cash. Though it's definitely evil.




I can't comment to PF's lich entry in their official Bestiary, but I know the 3.5 Lich in the MM calls for, as part of the phylactery creation, an act of "unspeakable evil." If that gives inspiration for how to raise the funds/get the materials, great!

So far, the best I've been able to come up with is, "Find something worth this amount that you don't have to technically own or even overtly steal until you finally use it." This is what led to my thought on using a village or town as the ingredients for your phylactery. (While I didn't think of this specifically until now, it may have been partially inspired by Fullmetal Alchemist.)


Is there anything about specifically questing for the components to throw into this that would suggest allowing 120,000 gp worth of them to be gathered, but which wouldn't be equally applicable to arguing for gathering components for other beyond-WBL item crafting?

[Coidzor]

Phylacteries store the soul of the Lich, and nothing more. It can take any form, with the most common being a box. It takes 120,000gp to create, as has been quoted before, but there are no mentions of "unspeakable evil" acts that must be done in order to create it. Then, again, if they're unspeakable, and they're mentioned... doesn't that make them speakable? Anyways, there's no requirement in the template that a lich be evil, though it does state that it's abhorrent to most. This is all SRD stuff, so it can be talked about without a "spoiler" box, right?

The only mention of Evil in the template is in the alignment section.

The template hedges by saying there's a lot of different rituals and intimating that GMs should be punitive about it if a player attempts it.

Occult Rituals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/#Eternal_Apotheosis) share one example of a ritual of Lichdom that requires one to commit some atrocity at some point in the past or to have an Evil Alignment and go back to where they first started to be Evil.

So aside from the [Evil] tag, one could become a Lich without actually doing anything else that's actually nefarious, so long as one was already Evil, good at skill checks, and had an ally or volunteer or minion that could easily survive 20d6 of damage.

All in all, it is fairly underwhelming as far as evil rituals that bill themselves as "heinously evil" and something that is part of a "depraved path" go, especially if you use Trompe L'oeil and/or Waxwork Creature minions as the secondary casters.

But, then, the Paizo crew's weird attitude towards undead and wanting to limit their potential usefulness as elements in the game continually strikes me as strange.


Is there anything about specifically questing for the components to throw into this that would suggest allowing 120,000 gp worth of them to be gathered, but which wouldn't be equally applicable to arguing for gathering components for other beyond-WBL item crafting?

I certainly can't think of anything on that front.

Not without specifically finding a half-finished phylactery or something.


I can't comment to PF's lich entry in their official Bestiary, but I know the 3.5 Lich in the MM calls for, as part of the phylactery creation, an act of "unspeakable evil." If that gives inspiration for how to raise the funds/get the materials, great!

It's kind of amusing that Paizo cut that part out, now that you mention it.

[Azoth]

I have to agree with the ease is Pathfinder. Between Cacodaemon Improved Familiars, the second level spell Summon Cacodaemon, and the third level spell Create Soul Gem, you can easily turn the souls of your defeated enemies into 120,000 gp worth of materials at 100gp (commoner/low level level enemy) up to 5000gp a soul.

I posted an idea a ways back that abused this to have an infinite army with infinite wealth that could pump out NI magic items a day at level 15. It could be done earlier, but that required purchasing items that depending on DM would be unavailable.

[Mordaedil]

I've always thought of the price as part of process as well, so you have to set up this large chamber with crystals that direct your soul into the phylactary as you die a violent death to transfer your soul into it, hence why you don't just look your normal self after you finish the process. The amulet or box itself is usually far cheaper in make, it's everything else that is destroyed on use that causes the process to be as it were.

Of course it doesn't work like that for everyone.

[Florian]

This is all SRD stuff, so it can be talked about without a "spoiler" box, right?

Paizo has a very special view on how undead work, which is reflected back to the core rules. The more in-depth material does a quite good job at explaining it, but it´s not on the PRD. That´s why I asked the question.

In the full version, achieving lichdom is about finding the one specific process to unlock it for you, culminating in crafting the phylactery. The cost covers the whole process, not just only the phylactery.
The Eternal Apotheosis occult ritual is one example for it, other can simply have the lich-to-be set aside the gp over a longer stretch of time and invest it into research or requiring it to drink a specific combination of potions for breakfast every day, and so on.

[Coidzor]

I've always thought of the price as part of process as well, so you have to set up this large chamber with crystals that direct your soul into the phylactary as you die a violent death to transfer your soul into it, hence why you don't just look your normal self after you finish the process. The amulet or box itself is usually far cheaper in make, it's everything else that is destroyed on use that causes the process to be as it were.

Of course it doesn't work like that for everyone.

Destroying things instead of or in addition to creating something would be thematic with the whole EVIL thing and negative energy being entropy and destruction and wanting to become an unliving conduit for it.