Please check my convoluted LA vs Exp-river math

[Jowgen]

I am looking to exploit the LA buy-off mechanics in using the Feytouched race (FF), in conjunction with the Half-Fey template (via the savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) method)and the Saint Template. The basic idea is to acquire the templates and buy them off at specific points during the exp-gain, as to get rid of all the LA and then ideally catch up completely. I need some extra eyes to make sure my maths and understanding of the relevant rules checks out.

The Process in detail (lets call the character Bob):

Bob starts out with a +1 LA at 1st level/HD (ECL2). Upon gaining 3000 exp and reaching 3rd level (ECL4) he does his first LA buy off, setting him back to level 1 at 0 exp (ECL 1), but then acquires the Half-Fey template at a +1 LA (back to ECL 2). Once again, upon gaining 3000 exp and reaching 3 HD (ECL 4), he buys off his +1 LA, re-setting him to 1 HD (ECL1).

After these three tours of HD 1-3, Bob levels normally with no LA until he has gained 15000 exp and thus reaches 6 HD. Having met the requirements beforehand, he acquires his Saint Template at this level, gaining a +2 LA and incurring an "exp-debt" equivalent to 2 levels of advancement (i.e. 13000 exp), which gets added to the 6000 exp he would need to advance to level 7. He then also pays 6000 exp to buy off his +2 LA to a +1, going down to 9000 exp and thus 4 HD (ECL 5). He then needs to clear his 13000 exp debt and gain 1000 exp before reaching 10000 exp and thus advancing to 5 HD (ECL6).

It then takes him another 26000 exp (for a total of 36000 exp) to reach 9 HD, at which point he pays 9000 exp to buy off his final +1 LA. He at this point also pays the 2000 exp and 1200 exp respectively to go through the ritual of shadow-walking and dark flames (CoR), which all together brings him to an exp total of 23800 exp. He is therefore a 7 HD creature and ECL 7 character. From then on he levels normally.


In the end, this should allow for the buy-off of a +4 LA (or +5, if Feytouched and Half-Fey are counted seperate), as well as the special Saint penalty and Rituals, for a total cost 37200 exp. The obvious trade-off is that Bob spends all of his early-mid levels severely HD deficient compared to the rest of his party.

So my main question is whether people think this works as outlined. My secondary question is whether anyone could hazard an estimate on how Bob's HD and ECL would measure up to the rest of his party over time (e.g. how quickly he'd be able to catch up at each interval). Any input much appreciated.

EDIT: Some changes need to be made to the above, as I did not take the effect of ECL on actual EXP needed to reach levels into account. The changes now rely on addint the EXP-costing rituals in at earlier levels, as to get low enough HD to re-reach the buy-off points.

[MisterKaws]

Bob starts out with a +1 LA at 1st level/HD (ECL2). Upon gaining 3000 exp and reaching 3rd level (ECL4) he does his first LA buy off, setting him back to level 1 at 0 exp (ECL 1), but then acquires the Half-Fey template at a +1 LA (back to ECL 2). Once again, upon gaining 3000 exp and reaching 3 HD (ECL 4), he buys off his +1 LA, re-setting him to 1 HD (ECL1).

You only lose your LA in buyoff, so it's from ECL4 to ECL3, which means you need to go to ECL6 for the next buyoff. This probably breaks your build stub.

[Gildedragon]

Kay so you got a bit confused there in the first few lines.
The first buy-off doesn't drop them to lvl 1. the progression goes
Lvl 1 (ECL2) > +2000xp > Lvl 2 (ECL 3) > +3000 xp > Lvl 3 (ECL 4) > Buyoff (-3000 xp) > Lvl 3 (ECL 3) (and a total of 2000 xp)

[Jowgen]

You only lose your LA in buyoff, so it's from ECL4 to ECL3, which means you need to go to ECL6 for the next buyoff. This probably breaks your build stub.

True the ECL drops by 1 from the LA buy-off itself, but if you loose enough EXP to drop you below the minimum to have a certain level, you loose levels. The 3000 exp cost of the buy off reduces the total exp the character has at 3 HD back to 0 as well, hence the drop.

The only way this wouldn't apply is if I'm either not reading the exp-to-level progression right (see discussion below), or if loosing exp below a exp level-threshold doesn't actually cause level loss (i.e. be a lvl 3 creature with 0 exp, needing to gain 4000 exp to reach level 4).


Kay so you got a bit confused there in the first few lines.
The first buy-off doesn't drop them to lvl 1. the progression goes
Lvl 1 (ECL2) > +2000xp > Lvl 2 (ECL 3) > +3000 xp > Lvl 3 (ECL 4) > Buyoff (-3000 xp) > Lvl 3 (ECL 3) (and a total of 2000 xp)

I think we're in disagreement on how to read the PHB exp table.


This column on Table 3–2 shows the experience point total needed to attain a given character level—that is, the total of all the character’s level in classes.

So the collum doesn't indicate how much more exp is needed for the next level, but how much exp the character needs to have in total to reach that level. As in, you reach level 3 once you have 3000 exp in total. So the progression should afaik be:

Lvl 1 (ECL2) > + 1000xp > Lvl2 (ECL3) > + 2000xp > Lvl 3 (ECL3) > - 3000xp > Lvl 1 (ECL 1) (and a total of 0 exp)

[Gildedragon]

True the ECL drops by 1 from the LA buy-off itself, but if you loose enough EXP to drop you below the minimum to have a certain level, you loose levels. The 3000 exp cost of the buy off reduces the total exp the character has at 3 HD back to 0 as well, hence the drop.

The only way this wouldn't apply is if I'm either not reading the exp-to-level progression right (see discussion below), or if loosing exp below a exp level-threshold doesn't actually cause level loss (i.e. be a lvl 3 creature with 0 exp, needing to gain 4000 exp to reach level 4).



I think we're in disagreement on how to read the PHB exp table.



So the collum doesn't indicate how much more exp is needed for the next level, but how much exp the character needs to have in total to reach that level. As in, you reach level 3 once you have 3000 exp in total. So the progression should afaik be:

Lvl 1 (ECL2) > + 1000xp > Lvl2 (ECL3) > + 2000xp > Lvl 3 (ECL3) > - 3000xp > Lvl 1 (ECL 1) (and a total of 0 exp)

You're reading the table wrong. What you use to move between lvl thresholds is your ECL.
A 2 RHD LA 1 race needs a whopping 5kxp to attain their second level (hence why casters without LA buyoff rules ought stick to LA 0 races)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

Savage Progressions Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) including the rules for gaining a template midcampaign.

Keep in mind that the text trumps the table (core rules errata), tables are only presented for ease of reference and may not be applicable in every situation.

The rules were written under the assumption that you would begin play with all of your level adjustment, i.e. before your first character level.

Let's say you begin play at +1 LA/ [Class] 1, ECL 2. You reach LA +1/ [Class] 3 (ECL 4) and reduce your level adjustment, taking you to ECL 3. You gain one level, gain one level of a template class, and go to [Class] 3/ LA +1. The total LA your character has had is +2, so you must have at least six class levels to reduce it. You gain three more class levels, putting you at [Class] 6/ LA +1 (ECL 7), and reduce it by one, going back to ECL 6. You gain another level and take another level of a template class, putting you at [Class] 6/ LA +1. That total LA your character has had is +3, so you must have nine class levels before reducing it. Thus every time you gain another point of LA, you must gain three more class levels before reducing it, which IMO matches the spirit of the rules as well.

Alternatively, start with +0 LA, gain three levels, and spend your fourth level on a +1 LA. Your class levels are three times your level adjustment, you immediately buy it off, effectively trading that level's worth of XP instead of gaining the LA. Once you get to six class levels and hit 7th level you can do the same thing, and once you get to nine class levels and hit 10th level you can do the same thing, and so on. This allows you to start at ECL 1 at 1st level, but still gain and buy off a point of LA at every three class levels gained.

[Jowgen]

What you use to move between lvl thresholds is your ECL.
A 2 RHD LA 1 race needs a whopping 5kxp to attain their second level

So I went and checked DMG p. 172, and you are indeed correct that ECL also makes you count as being a higher level for the purpose of how much EXP you need for gaining levels Will definitely have to re-do my maths based on that.

Seperate from that, I still don't see how the PHB table doesn't simply list the total exp a creature has in relation to it's level (e.g. reaches level 3 upon having a total of 3000 exp), as opposed to how much it needs to gain for the next one (i.e. needs 3000 exp to get from level 2 to 3). Or am I misjuding your position here?

[Jowgen]

Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

Savage Progressions Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) including the rules for gaining a template midcampaign.

Keep in mind that the text trumps the table (core rules errata), tables are only presented for ease of reference and may not be applicable in every situation.

The rules were written under the assumption that you would begin play with all of your level adjustment, i.e. before your first character level.

Let's say you begin play at +1 LA/ [Class] 1, ECL 2. You reach LA +1/ [Class] 3 (ECL 4) and reduce your level adjustment, taking you to ECL 3. You gain one level, gain one level of a template class, and go to [Class] 3/ LA +1. The total LA your character has had is +2, so you must have at least six class levels to reduce it. You gain three more class levels, putting you at [Class] 6/ LA +1 (ECL 7), and reduce it by one, going back to ECL 6. You gain another level and take another level of a template class, putting you at [Class] 6/ LA +1. That total LA your character has had is +3, so you must have nine class levels before reducing it. Thus every time you gain another point of LA, you must gain three more class levels before reducing it, which IMO matches the spirit of the rules as well.

Alternatively, start with +0 LA, gain three levels, and spend your fourth level on a +1 LA. Your class levels are three times your level adjustment, you immediately buy it off, effectively trading that level's worth of XP instead of gaining the LA. Once you get to six class levels and hit 7th level you can do the same thing, and once you get to nine class levels and hit 10th level you can do the same thing, and so on. This allows you to start at ECL 1 at 1st level, but still gain and buy off a point of LA at every three class levels gained.

Okay, let me see if I am following you.

The savage progression requires you to gain enough exp to advance to the next level, and then instead of gaining a level, you gain the template and thus the LA instead of a class level. So if a LA +0/Class 2 creature gained enough exp to go to Class 3, it can instead get the LA 1 from the savage progression, going ECL with LA+1/Class2. Then when reaching Class3, it can do the buy off get rid of the +1.

Irrespective of this, you are of the opinion that due to the LA buy-off rules not being made with savage progression in mind, one must still wait until Class6 to do any other kind of buy off (i.e. of another gained +2), even if CL were to drop to 2 and then go back up to CL 3 a second time. Am I getting this right?

[Gildedragon]

So I went and checked DMG p. 172, and you are indeed correct that ECL also makes you count as being a higher level for the purpose of how much EXP you need for gaining levels Will definitely have to re-do my maths based on that.

Seperate from that, I still don't see how the PHB table doesn't simply list the total exp a creature has in relation to it's level (e.g. reaches level 3 upon having a total of 3000 exp), as opposed to how much it needs to gain for the next one (i.e. needs 3000 exp to get from level 2 to 3). Or am I misjuding your position here?

So as I read it it is you need to gain <your ECL>kxp to move to the next level

Thus an ECL 1 character needs 1000 xp to move to 2, 3000 (or 1000+2000) to move to 3, 6000 (1k+2k+3k) to move to 4, 10000 (1k+2k+3k+4k) to 5

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, let me see if I am following you.

The savage progression requires you to gain enough exp to advance to the next level, and then instead of gaining a level, you gain the template and thus the LA instead of a class level. So if a LA +0/Class 2 creature gained enough exp to go to Class 3, it can instead get the LA 1 from the savage progression, going ECL with LA+1/Class2. Then when reaching Class3, it can do the buy off get rid of the +1.

Irrespective of this, you are of the opinion that due to the LA buy-off rules not being made with savage progression in mind, one must still wait until Class6 to do any other kind of buy off (i.e. of another gained +2), even if CL were to drop to 2 and then go back up to CL 3 a second time. Am I getting this right?

Basically, yes. You must gain three class levels per point of level adjustment, including those points already bought off, before buying off another point of level adjustment.

[Jowgen]

So as I read it it is you need to gain <your ECL>kxp to move to the next level

Thus an ECL 1 character needs 1000 xp to move to 2, 3000 (or 1000+2000) to move to 3, 6000 (1k+2k+3k) to move to 4, 10000 (1k+2k+3k+4k) to 5

I think we're on the same page but had a misunderstanding. The 10000 xp to go from 4 to 5 in your example consist of 6000 xp base plus 4000 xp (i.e. current level x 1000) needed for advancement; making up the total exp possessed by an ECL 5 character. Advacement to 6th would cost 5000, bringing the total at 6th to 15000 (or 1k+2k+3k+4k+5k), which is in line with the 2nd-level gnoll fighter example from the LA-buy off SRD entry.

For reference, the formula for XP calculations behind the table seem to be:

XP gain needed to go from current level (Lc) to next level= Lc x 1000 XP (e.g. 10000 exp to go from 10 to 11)

XP total needed to be current level: Lc = Lc x (Lc-1) x 500 (e.g. 10 x 9 x 500 = 45000 to be level 10)

XP total needed to be next level = (Lc^2+Lc)*500 (e.g. (10 x 10 + 10) x 500 = 55000 to reach level 11)



Basically, yes. You must gain three class levels per point of level adjustment, including those points already bought off, before buying off another point of level adjustment.

Hmmm... to look at this in detail...


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. [...] If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1.

So, the formula for the first buy-off point is simply LA x 3. If level adjustment remains at that point, then the next eligible buy of point is the current level (aka. first buy-off point) + remaining LA x 3 (e.g. 6 + 1 x 3=9; 9 + 2 x 3= 15).

Now I think this is where the potentially exploitable weirdness comes in. If LA is bought of from 1 to 0, then no LA remains from which to calculate the next buy off. If another LA is acquired after the fact (e.g. at Class 4), the eligible buy-off point would then be calculated based on that new LA (e.g. Class 3 for a +1); in which case that creature might well already be past the calculated point. By this RAW-reading a +1 LA gained at Class 4 can not be bought off at 6, with further buy-off only being a possibility if a) one were go gain another +1 (as to have a total +2 to be bought off to a +1 at Class 6), or if one were to go back to Class 2 and then reach Class 3 again (as I am trying).

What I find rather strange about this is that the LA buy-off rules in UA were released a mere month after the final savage progression article but did not bother to alude to how templates acquired after 1st level should be handled in this regard.

[Anthrowhale]

These two sentences are contradictory


Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

since the first one says to use the 'current level adjustment' (i.e. +1 in the example) while the example uses something like 'current level adjustment after subtracting off the previous buyoff point'. The table agrees with the second sentence. Generally, I would go with the example as it seems saner and more consistent. Using 'current level adjustment after subtracting off the previous buyoff point', you can add an LA+1 and remove it at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.

Your description seems consistent with a different interpretation where the first sentence has primacy over the example + table.

[Jowgen]

since the first one says to use the 'current level adjustment' (i.e. +1 in the example) while the example uses something like 'current level adjustment after subtracting off the previous buyoff point'. The table agrees with the second sentence. Generally, I would go with the example as it seems saner and more consistent. Using 'current level adjustment after subtracting off the previous buyoff point', you can add an LA+1 and remove it at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.

Your description seems consistent with a different interpretation where the first sentence has primacy over the example + table.

Yeah, getting the two sentences to work together consistently takes a bit of work. When it says "Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1", it doesn't actually specify that you should multiply current LA by 3 as before to get the new level. It just stipulates that you need to use the "current level adjustment to determine".

My "next eligible buy of point is the current level (aka. first buy-off point) + remaining LA x 3" is simply the formula that fits with both this stipulation and the subsequent example.


What currently bothers me is the buy-off math for Saint at 6. Originally I thought it imposed a special EXP tax for the "catch up", but looking at it now (with my fixed understanding of ECL and XP gain), I think it might just describe how LA works normally. Here's the relevant text:


character sacrifices her next two levels of advancement in order to “catch up” with the (artificially low) level adjustment of the template. For example, a 7th-level paladin who becomes a saint becomes the equivalent of a 9th-level character. She must accumulate a total of 45,000 XP to gain another level, becoming an 8th-level paladin and a 10th-level character

The 45,000 xp is exactly the xp total that a normal character needs to have to be ECL 10. The whole "catch up" thing doesn't actually seem to signify any cost in addition to what is normally needed to advance in HD when you've got a LA. Am I right here? Because if I am, that brings the whole EXP cost down again.

[Anthrowhale]

Am I right here?

Yes. I think you can do Fey-touched with buyoff @3, Half-Fey Savage progressions with buyoff @6, then Saint with buyoff @12 and @15. (All those numbers reference character level, not ECL).

[Troacctid]

Expect table variation, because the rules on a lot of these variants are ambiguous enough to require DM adjudication—plus, of course, the variants are not intended to be used together in the first place.

Personally, if I got the green light to use both variant rules together, I wouldn't bother taking the +1 LA for Feytouched—I'd just use the Savage Progression version, skip the useless racial level, and go straight to the Half-Fey transition class. But other than that, I think Anthrowhale has it right in the post above me.

[Jowgen]

Yes. I think you can do Fey-touched with buyoff @3, Half-Fey Savage progressions with buyoff @6, then Saint with buyoff @12 and @15. (All those numbers reference character level, not ECL).

Any thoughts on using exp loss to go back under @3 after the first buy off to do the second buy off when reaching @3 for the second time, and thus moving the whole buy-off schedule up?


Personally, if I got the green light to use both variant rules together, I wouldn't bother taking the +1 LA for Feytouched—I'd just use the Savage Progression version, skip the useless racial level, and go straight to the Half-Fey transition class. But other than that, I think Anthrowhale has it right in the post above me.

Reason for doing Feytouched as a whole is that Half-Fey (savage or otherwise) does not actually get the mind-affecting immunity regular (or savage 1) Feytouched does. Side-note, I do find it a tad amusing that they still bothered to include the Enchantment Immunity for the transition class...

[Troacctid]

Reason for doing Feytouched as a whole is that Half-Fey (savage or otherwise) does not actually get the mind-affecting immunity regular (or savage 1) Feytouched does. Side-note, I do find it a tad amusing that they still bothered to include the Enchantment Immunity for the transition class...
Well you might not have taken the extra level of Feytouched.

If you want the mind-affecting immunity, that's cool, but I'd still take it in the other order. Half-Fey first, then Saint, then Feytouched. It's just the least valuable of the three by such a wide margin. Especially since enchantment immunity already covers a lot of the nastiest stuff and you have a +4 racial bonus on the rest.

[Anthrowhale]

Any thoughts on using exp loss to go back under @3 after the first buy off to do the second buy off when reaching @3 for the second time, and thus moving the whole buy-off schedule up?


The rules don't specify this, but as DM I would interpret it as still needing to reach level 6 (i.e. 3 more than your previous buyoff). This seems consistent and the other way invites abuse.