Building a Drider Character

[Player_One]

I'm trying to build a drider character but I'm having trouble working out the LA such a character would have. So far I've found only two examples of how to make a drider. One is the savage species monster as class progression, and the other is this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a)template.

Does anyone know of any direct drider as PC race statistics? Or can anyone help me make heads or tails of how to build this character?

[Inevitability]

I assigned them a LA of +2 some time ago. You can find the post where I did so with the link in my sig.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm) as-printed has 6 HD of Aberration and a +4 LA, making it a 10th level character before you add any class levels.

Six hit dice of Aberration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType) is basically six monster levels that gives 6d8 hp, +4 BAB, Fort +2, Reflex +2, Will +5, 2+Int skill points x9, class skills are those listed for the monster: Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. That also gets you 6th level spellcasting in Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer, plus the other racial traits. A 6th level character gets three feats, just treat it like multiclassing.

For ability scores, take whatever's printed and subtract 11 if it's odd, or 10 if it's even, to get the ability bonus. A Drider gets Str +4, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +6. You also get +6 natural armor, the 30 ft. land speed and 15 ft. climb speed, Darkvision 60 ft., SR 17 (Drow get 11+level so it should probably scale), +4 Hide and Move Silently, etc.

Monster level/hit dice are not optional, but you can take levels in the class you have spellcasting for to increase your existing spellcasting ability, and even prestige classes that advance spellcasting.

Check out Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) for how to play a monstrous character by the rules.

[Player_One]

Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm) as-printed has 6 HD of Aberration and a +4 LA, making it a 10th level character before you add any class levels.

Six hit dice of Aberration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType) is basically six monster levels that gives 6d8 hp, +4 BAB, Fort +2, Reflex +2, Will +5, 2+Int skill points x9, class skills are those listed for the monster: Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. That also gets you 6th level spellcasting in Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer, plus the other racial traits. A 6th level character gets three feats, just treat it like multiclassing.

For ability scores, take whatever's printed and subtract 11 if it's odd, or 10 if it's even, to get the ability bonus. A Drider gets Str +4, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +6. You also get +6 natural armor, the 30 ft. land speed and 15 ft. climb speed, Darkvision 60 ft., SR 17 (Drow get 11+level so it should probably scale), +4 Hide and Move Silently, etc.

Monster level/hit dice are not optional, but you can take levels in the class you have spellcasting for to increase your existing spellcasting ability, and even prestige classes that advance spellcasting.

Check out Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) for how to play a monstrous character by the rules.

Is that the only way to play a drider? :smallfrown: I'm only allowed a 6th level character

[Inevitability]

Is that the only way to play a drider? :smallfrown: I'm only allowed a 6th level character

There's this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a), but it doesn't have a LA. Personally, I'd put it at +2 LA, though depending on your group +3 may be more balanced.

This LA assumes you're not getting any extra HD from the template, meaning you already have 3 class levels if you're tiny, 4 if you're small, and 6 if you're medium before applying it. If you're forced to take aberration HD for any reason, the LA should probably go down.

[Player_One]

So if I take that template and apply it to a drow character (The drow LA has been waved for this game since all the characters will be drow) what am I looking at for an LA?

Sorry if I seem dumb, I've never been great at this kind of thing.

[Inevitability]

So if I take that template and apply it to a drow character (The drow LA has been waved for this game since all the characters will be drow) what am I looking at for an LA?

Sorry if I seem dumb, I've never been great at this kind of thing.

Drow are medium, meaning a drider drow would need to have at least 6 HD. This, however, is also your maximum level.

It's a bit tricky, but I think that with aberration HD being as bad as they are, you could justify having three class levels before gaining the template, which then gives you three extra HD. The resulting creature would be ECL 6.

This is just my opinion, though, and by no means RAW. Ask your DM if they agree with my assessment.

[Player_One]

So if this is approved, I could have a level 3 class drider?

Is there a way to not take any extra HD from the template and gain more class levels instead?

[Inevitability]

So if this is approved, I could have a level 3 class drider?

Is there a way to not take any extra HD from the template and gain more class levels instead?

1. You'd have a drider with 3 class levels, 3 aberration hit dice, and 0 LA, making it a level 6 character.

2. There is: you can just take six class levels and then become a drider, but in such a case I definitely wouldn't give it +0 LA. Perhaps ask your DM if you can spend XP on replacing aberration hit dice with class levels as the campaign goes on: I suggest checking out the LA-buyoff system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to get an idea of appropriate XP costs.

[Crake]

Hold up, hold up, this is a drow campaign and you want to play a drider?! Are you nuts? You understand that driders are treated like worse than dirt in drow society, right? They are shunned, sometimes even actively hunted, if not treated like slaves, playing as one basically gives you a -40 to diplomacy and an automatic starting disposition of unfriendly with all drow ever. Not a great place to be at in the drow social hierarchy if you're gonna spend the whole campaign there.

[Player_One]

Hold up, hold up, this is a drow campaign and you want to play a drider?! Are you nuts? You understand that driders are treated like worse than dirt in drow society, right? They are shunned, sometimes even actively hunted, if not treated like slaves, playing as one basically gives you a -40 to diplomacy and an automatic starting disposition of unfriendly with all drow ever. Not a great place to be at in the drow social hierarchy if you're gonna spend the whole campaign there.

Well, that might be true if we were playing in a published setting. But I've already asked the DM about it and in his setting becoming a drider is an honor, as Lolth herself is often depicted as a drider.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a Drider monster class in Savage Species page 163, that's playable from 1st level. Keep in mind that's based on the 3.0 Drider, so it may need some minor updates.

[Crake]

Well, that might be true if we were playing in a published setting. But I've already asked the DM about it and in his setting becoming a drider is an honor, as Lolth herself is often depicted as a drider.

Ah right, all good. Usually the depiction of lolth as a drider is a reminder of how Correlon cursed her into that hideous form to forever remind the other gods of her treachery, and drow become driders by failing lolth's tests, but that's just the standard lore. Even in drow of the underdark there's mention of the younger generation of drow coming to appreciate the power that comes with being a drider, and developing a tenuous relationship with them.

But that said, according to the drider template you linked in your opening post, the minimum HD for a medium drider is 4, the LA should be 2 (because a "regular" drider is LA4, and is just a combination of a 6HD drow and the drider template, so that should put the template quite decidedly at LA2, you should be able to convince your DM of that easily). So 4HD and 2LA makes level 6 perfectly (you said your DM is giving everyone the 2 LA from drow for free right?), there shouldn't be a problem?

[Inevitability]

But that said, according to the drider template you linked in your opening post, the minimum HD for a medium drider is 4, the LA should be 2 (because a "regular" drider is LA4, and is just a combination of a 6HD drow and the drider template, so that should put the template quite decidedly at LA2, you should be able to convince your DM of that easily). So 4HD and 2LA makes level 6 perfectly (you said your DM is giving everyone the 2 LA from drow for free right?), there shouldn't be a problem?

Except drider also increases your size by one, then uses the new value to determine minimum HD.

[Crake]

Except drider also increases your size by one, then uses the new value to determine minimum HD.

Ah right, gotcha... Damn, that sucks. Could you maybe convince your DM to let you use lesser drow or half drow instead, and instead get your free LA on drider?

[Player_One]

I am so confused :smallfrown:

So, can I just build a level 6 drow character, then apply the template? Or should it be a level 4 character with the template?

I'm trying to build a drider paladin of tyranny.

[Crake]

I am so confused :smallfrown:

So, can I just build a level 6 drow character, then apply the template? Or should it be a level 4 character with the template?

I'm trying to build a drider paladin of tyranny.

That was my bad, I didn't see that the minimum HD was determined AFTER the size change. So for a drow (a medium creature) the minimum HD is applied after you increase your size category by 1 (to large) which would be 6. You could maybe get around it by playing a young drow, thus becoming small?

[Epic Legand]

First, your looking at a fair amount of hand waving to play this no matter what. Based on the version you pick. Standard Drow = LA 2( free in your game), Standard Drider= LA 2. Classic story is that at 6th level ( ignoring LA) Drow are tested, some fail and are condemned to becoming a drider. They KEEP the 6 levels of casting ( classicly Sor/Wiz or Cleric) but elsewise have aberration HD ( for saves/skill points/hp/ ect). That means in a 6th Lv game, your 2 levels away from the test.
Speak to your DM, I would recommend ( in this game with the free +2 LA for being Drow ) that you start off at 5 aberration HD, and 5th level caster, with LA +1, but that you owe 2 more levels, one of which gives you HD and one of which gives you casting. After that point, progress as you like. Don't buy off the levels, because your still getting like 20 free stat points.
Games should be fun, and I think this sounds fun, but they should not leave you blowing away a standard Drow, with no cost. Aberration HD are better then the Wizard chassis, and your still getting almost full casting.

[Player_One]

Hm...

This is seeming less and less doable at the level I'm allowed.

Anyone have any other ideas for making a really unique drow paladin of tyranny? Should I start a new thread?

[thoroughlyS]

Standard Drow = LA 2( free in your game), Standard Drider= LA 2.
Actually, the Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm) has +4 LA.

Classic story is that at 6th level ( ignoring LA) Drow are tested, some fail and are condemned to becoming a drider. They KEEP the 6 levels of casting ( classicly Sor/Wiz or Cleric) but elsewise have aberration HD ( for saves/skill points/hp/ ect). That means in a 6th Lv game, your 2 levels away from the test.
This would normally be true, except that they are ignoring the Drow LA, and thus would be at the level where the test happens/happened.

Aberration HD are better then the Wizard chassis, and your still getting almost full casting.
By a different metric, Aberration HD are worse than Cleric HD.

Pedantry aside, if you decide to use the Drow Monster Class, there are only a few changes that need to be made to bring it up to date with the v3.5 Drow:

Technically, Driders only have 60 ft. darkvision (maybe the transformation damages their eyes?)
Technically, they shouldn't have Spellcraft as a class skill. This might also be the case for Craft and Profession, but I think everyone gets those (and no-one needs them).
At 3rd level, they do not gain detect chaos, detect evil, or discern lies.
At 6th level, they should gain Spell Resistance equal to 11+HD.

And for some reason, the monster class says they gain 2 feats at 1st level. This is probably a mistake.

My recommendation is to ask your DM to collapse levels 4-5 and levels 8-9 of the Drider monster class, so that it looks like this:
LevelHDBABFortRefWill
Skill PointsSpecial
Spellcasting
1st1d8+0+0+0+2
(2+Int mod) x 4Feat, spells, +2 natural armor
+1 level of spellcasting class
2nd2d8+1+0+0+3
2+Int modBite 1d4, poison (1d3 Str, 1d3 Str), +2 Str
+1 level of spellcasting class
3rd2d8+1+0+0+3
—Spell-like abilities, +2 Wis
—
4th3d8+2+1+1+3
2+Int modFeat, +4 natural armor, poison (1d4 Str, 1d4 Str), +2 Dex, +2 Con
+1 level of spellcasting class
5th4d8+3+1+1+4
2+Int mod+2 Int, +2 Wis, spell resistance
+1 level of spellcasting class
6th4d8+3+1+1+4
—+6 natural armor, +2 Con, +2 Cha
—
7th5d8+3+1+1+4
2+Int modLarge size (reach 5 ft.), poison (1d6 Str, 1d6 Str), +2 Str, +2 Wis
+1 level of spellcasting class
8th6d8+4+2+2+5
2+Int modFeat, +2 Con, +2 Cha
+1 level of spellcasting class

This gives you a free +2 LA (just like with Drow), and gets rid of the deadest levels in the progression. Remember to include the updates to the class that I listed above. If you use this, you'll start the game with 4 Aberration HD and +2 LA. You have to finish out the monster class, and then you can start taking levels in other classes. If you want to be a Paladin, I recommend a dip into Cleric (for turn undead), then straight into Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) (Unearthed Arcana p.70). Going off of standard Drow lore (which has already been changed, but whatever), Paladin of Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures) (Unearthed Arcana p.53) makes more sense than Tyranny.

[Crake]

Actually, the Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm) has +4 LA.

There was a published drider template (linked in the OP no less) that had no listed LA, but if you put it onto a 6th level drow, then you get pretty much exactly the drider from the monster manual. Since drow have 2 LA, and a "regular" drider has 4LA, then 4-2=2LA for the template alone.

[thoroughlyS]

There was a published drider template (linked in the OP no less) that had no listed LA, but if you put it onto a 6th level drow, then you get pretty much exactly the drider from the monster manual. Since drow have 2 LA, and a "regular" drider has 4LA, then 4-2=2LA for the template alone.

My recommendation is to ask your DM to collapse levels 4-5 and levels 8-9 of the Drider monster class...

This gives you a free +2 LA (just like with Drow), and gets rid of the deadest levels in the progression.
I kind of accounted for that.

And if you look at the post I replied to, it is clear that they thought the Drider's official LA was +2 total, not accounting for the waved +2 from being a Drow.

[Inevitability]

I kind of accounted for that.

And if you look at the post I replied to, it is clear that they thought the Drider's official LA was +2 total, not accounting for the waved +2 from being a Drow.

That might've been my fault: I suggested lowering the LA to +2. Honestly, it won't make driders overpowered.

[thoroughlyS]

That might've been my fault: I suggested lowering the LA to +2. Honestly, it won't make driders overpowered.

Standard Drow = LA 2( free in your game), Standard Drider= LA 2.
It just seems as though they were mistaken.

For what it's worth I really enjoy reading through the LA assignment thread, and I think the game would probably better if they used your numbers. Although at that point they would probably need to come up with their own monster class advancement.

[Player_One]

Okay, so I put togther a quick first level drow paladin of tyranny (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1178709). Just the bare bones for the moment. Now, if I dd the drider template to this, where does that leave me?

Also, on a side not, am I the only one that thinks a paladin of tyranny should replace diplomacy with intimidate?

[Player_One]

can anyone help me?

[thoroughlyS]

Size: Your character increases to Large size. Note: Based on the sample stat blocks at the end of the web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a) you become Large(Long) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), which means your reach stays at 5 feet. The text is silent on this issue, so I believe the table provides clarity in this circumstance.

Hit Dice: Your character gains 5 "aberration levels" to bring it to the minimum. Note: It is unclear exactly what this means for your character. The text does not say that your type changes to Aberration, so presumably you are still a Humanoid (elf). This also means that you wouldn't get the traits of being an Aberration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType), just the features (which are discussed in the appropriate sections below). Check with your DM about this.

Speed: You characters speed changes to 30 ft., climb 15 ft. Thanks to the climb speed they also have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

AC: Your character gains +6 natural armor.

Attack: Your character gains a bite attack (1d4). Note: It is unclear if this bite is a secondary natural attack or not. If it is a primary natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) like the Drider (which is usually the case when there is only one attack) then it is unclear what modifier to add to the damage. If it is a secondary weapon, then you have a -5 penalty to attack with it and it adds 1/2 STR.

Special Attacks: Your character retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains spell-like abilities and a poisonous bite.

1/day -- dancing lights, darkness, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, faerie fire, and levitate. These abilities are as the spells cast by a sorcerer of the drider's sorcerer level (save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level). If the drider has no sorcerer levels, the abilities are cast as a 1st-level sorcerer. Note: In 3.5 a regular Drider does not have detect chaos or detect evil, but they did in 3.0 when this article was written.

Poison DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier. 1d6 Strength damage for both initial and secondary damage.

According to the article, you do not gain casting as a cleric, sorcerer, or wizard.

Special Qualities: A drider retains the special qualities of the base creature and gains Spell Resistance equal to 11 + Hit Dice.

Saves: Your character ends up with +8 Fort (+3 base, +5 mod), +3 Ref (+1 base, +2 mod), +7 (+4 base, +3 mod). This factors in the base saves from Paladin, and the ability score increases below.

Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 18. You also have a floating point from gaining your 4th HD.

Skills: Your character gets 15 skill points to spend. Its class skills are Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spellcraft, and Spot. You also receive a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks. Note: You probably shouldn't have Spellcraft, since regular Driders don't get it.

Feats: You gain two feats as normal for 3rd and 6th level.

Alignment: Your character becomes chaotic evil, which is problematic for a Paladin of Tyranny. And you can't just choose not to be chaotic evil, because the ritual to make you a Drider tints all of your thoughts and memories with anger and hatred.

As noted in previous posts, technically you don't have a level adjustment, because this template was written back in 3.0 when they didn't really care about monsters as PCs. Expect your DM to rule otherwise. This is why I advocate for using the Monster Class instead. Folding a few levels together brings you back up to speed with the rest of the group.

If you have your heart set on using the template, the cheesy thing to do is apply it to a character who is already 6th level, so that you get all the class features and class chassis (which is usually better than just Aberration HD) on top of all the goodies the template provides. Your DM is probably going to give you a LA either way, so this is a nice way to make up for a lack of racial casting.

[Caelestion]

If you're a Paladin of Tyranny (and a drow!), you're probably already doing the anger and hatred bit quite well, thanks.

[thoroughlyS]

If you're a Paladin of Tyranny (and a drow!), you're probably already doing the anger and hatred bit quite well, thanks.

Driders change not just in body, but in mind. Regardless of the base creature's former alignment, the new drider is chaotic evil. The base creature's memories and past convictions remain, but are swirled in a haze of destructive, anarchic urges that force the creature to commit chaotic evil acts. Only a wish or miracle spell can change a creature back from this new form. A polymorph other spell can change a drider's shape, but its mind continues to be trapped in the same chaotic evil haze.
The characters mind is magically altered to become chaotic and evil.

[Grand Arbiter]

Due to the issues that appear to be arising with the character concept, mechanically, I took the liberty of homebrewing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521721-LA-2-Drider-PEACH&p=21926505#post21926505).

It will probably require DM approval for Player_One to use this, but I think it's got a shot at being approved.

I'd appreciate any commentary/critique that's offered over in the homebrew thread.

[Epic Legand]

Player one, I hope you have fun in your game, whatever you chose. Jsketchy, you just seam provocative. You go out of your way to say I'm wrong, then recommend the exact same thing I did. He's 5HD and LA+1. Certainly not worth the time it takes to type this...but WTF ? Player one is just looking for a fair way to play his character concept, and recommendations on how to do that. I made one, you made almost the exact same one. He and his DM pick what they like. They play and have fun, no need to provoke others over it.

[Caelestion]

The characters mind is magically altered to become chaotic and evil.

Fair enough, but of all the changes that Player One wants, waiving that to play his concept in the first place (which requires Lawful Evil alignment) seems like the least of his worries.

[thoroughlyS]

Jsketchy, you just seam provocative. You go out of your way to say I'm wrong, then recommend the exact same thing I did.

...

I made one, you made almost the exact same one. He and his DM pick what they like. They play and have fun, no need to provoke others over it.
I never said you were wrong. I never even said I disagreed with you. If anything, the fact that both of us arrived at the same basic solution should tell you that I understand where you're coming from. I was simply correcting a few minor discrepancies in your post (and making one counterpoint about the strength of the Hit Dice). Like I said in my post, I was being pedantic (https://www.google.com/search?q=pedantry&oq=pedantry&gs_l=serp.3..0l4j0i10k1j0l5.14949.17455.0.17654.12 .8.4.0.0.0.189.739.7j1.8.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0. 11.580...0i67k1j0i20k1.cJ1JDNAdp2g).

And to be fair, my post is more thorough about what benefits they would receive at each level. I even explained how I arrived at my solution.

[DriderAuthor]

I noticed a gap in Drider descriptions in the original Drow compendium and wrote the original article addressing using Driders as player characters in an article in Dragon Magazine Issue #128, "Entering the Drider's Web" in 1987, when I was 16 years old.

I'd have to dig out my old copy to double check, but I think they copied it verbatim and added a bit more when they updated all the monster compendiums.

I just searched at random to see if my first published writing was still on the web, it warmed the heart to see it was still out there somewhere!!

Now if they would just make it possible in ONE of the video games....:cool:

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm trying to build a drider character but I'm having trouble working out the LA such a character would have. So far I've found only two examples of how to make a drider. One is the savage species monster as class progression, and the other is this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a)template.

Does anyone know of any direct drider as PC race statistics? Or can anyone help me make heads or tails of how to build this character?

Imho the template you linked indirectly describes how you have to handle it.

1. Depending on your new size (+1 size step) the template sets a minimum HD you must have.
2. Until you have enough HD to meet the minimum, temporary (R)HD is added to meet the difference.
3. Those temporary (R)HD affect the rate your gain new levels until you meet the minimum HD requirement.

Keep the ECL rules for determining the xp you need for the next level in mind: (ECL -1) * 1000

It is like an inbuilt buy-off system.
E.g. You play an elf (medium) drider (large):
- min. HD has to be 6
- until you have reached 6HD due to other means (class lvl + normal RHD), you get the difference as temporary (R)HD.
- this means that for each lvlUp from 1 till 6 you pay (6ecl -1)*1000=5000xp.
- Starting at lvl 7, the xp needed for each lvlUp starts to follow the normal progression (7ecl -1)*1000= 6000xp (8th lvl 7000xp; 9th lvl 8000 xp...)

Note: Notice that I am talking about the XP needed for the next lvl and not total xp! I hope you get the difference I try to picture here.

[Darg]

Now if they would just make it possible in ONE of the video games....:cool:

Neverwinter Nights enhanced edition. Get the PRC (just Google nwn prc) and they let you play a drider character.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: is the Drider as undead as this thread?