What are your preferred class and level demographics?

[Mendicant]

There are innumerable threads about the various consequences of access to stuff like Fabricate or Cure Disease. They generally come with some pretty long-running arguments in them where people sometimes seem like they're talking past each other because they have radically different visions of how abundant specific classes are and what the population pyramid looks like by level.

Leaving aside other parts of the system like monsters and magic traps that can break typical faux-medieval assumptions in half, what kind ofclass breakdown do you think makes for the best campaign worlds? At what point does the world spiral off into really weird territory? How weird do you like your campaign worlds? How much mind-caulk is ok for you?

[Gnome Alone]

I really like thinking about how magic would transform society, but holy fart is it really hard to do. The "Tippyverse" is a neat way of looking at the effects of teleportation magic and magic that creates necessities, but even that doesn't go much further in thinking about all the myriad possibilities. I'm sure there's things no one has thought of yet that would happen if we (or pseudo-medieval fantasylanders) got a hold of actual magic powers - there must be some totally bonkers unforseen side effects of a spell or combination of spells on the D&D spell lists.

This is one of the many reason I like E6 - it's still insane but much more manageable to imagine the effects. Specifically in the example of what happens when a significant part of the population can magically remove diseases, there are probably going to be few enough 6th level clerics that only the rich and powerful would consistently be able to have their diseases cured, which is still step or two above the historical medieval health situation.

[GilesTheCleric]

I run my games from 3-15 for experienced groups. I don't really mind the higher-level abilities; they're actually nice in a lot of ways, since I don't need to worry about random encounters so much with Teleport, and it's easy to feed information/ create plot via Commune/ Divination.

My games are probably a bit different from the norm, though -- 50%+ is social/ political, and only 25% each of combat and exploration. My players get a fair amount of their xp just from roleplay or milestones.

In terms of classes, I let my players do as they please. Right now we've got Cleric, Warblade, Swordsage, and Monk, and it's all fine. Everyone has contributed. I'm glad that there's folks with magic in the party, again, because although I do enjoy a good interrogation, sometimes we all just want to learn the info and move on with the plot. It also keeps the game from getting too gritty, which is ideal since we don't play around a physical table, so everything takes a little longer than it otherwise would.

In my game, players face primarily humanoid foes, so things don't get too weird with grapple rules or tripping and whatnot. I don't think there's too much limit to what would be too weird. I guess if my players veered off really far into a specific type of trope or setting (bringing a horror-based character to the game, or a pony character), then it probably wouldn't mesh so well. But a samurai or western-themed adventurer? Sure, that's easy to incorporate. Monster characters probably wouldn't fare so well given how much time we spend in civilisation, but it would be doable -- I like to have a good variety of races in my cities, and a blend of tolerant and intolerant folks and factions.

In terms of magic breaking game balance, I don't think it necessarily needs to. No, most NPCs in my games don't use exploits or cheese, but those that do aren't going to upend the setting, since they're probably just building power for themselves/ their faction, or else have little impact on the setting as a whole. Doing something drastic and powerful is going to attract attention, and there will always be a bigger fish, especially in the Spelljammer setting I usually run.

My players will sometimes use those things, and that's fine, too. If they want to break WBL, I don't see much problem. If that's how they enjoy the game, then it's fine unless it reduces everyone else's fun. I can still come up with a challenge for them regardless. If they want to build a chain tripper, that's fine, too. Everyone deserves a chance to shine, and no character will win every situation. Most game exploits are mechanics-based, which means they can only use them in a portion of the game anyway.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I've always been of the opinion Fighters and Rogues should be by far the most numerous of adventuring types and everybody else is pretty much an exception to the rule. It's not that Wizards aren't numerous (I mean, relative to the population they aren't, but there should still be a couple hundred in any given region), but they much less likely to seek their fortune amidst danger in the wilderness or underground (being educated they generally have a better idea what that would entail going up against, and they can make a p. decent living as basic spellwrites anyhow...)

Oh you mean like, adventurers themselves...? Probably maybe 1 out of 100 people on the absolute outside---like you have to find a hamlet of a couple hundred people at least before you find someone with the requisite ability scores to take a PC class.

[Deeds]

Level 1: oh so so boring and stupidly lethal.
Level 2-4: still boring but at least you can multiclass and have a "build."
Level 5-6: LVL 3 spells are awesome!
Level 7: LVL 4 spells can be overwhelmingly strong, but hey! I'm actually playing a level 7 character!
Level >8: the game is done, imo. It's obvious who's playing a grossly unoptimized character when a frekin' harpy with a bow is giving someone trouble.

[Nettlekid]

It goes directly against the recommendations in the DMG, but I like the idea of a campaign world where almost everyone has a few adventuring levels. I like higher level games that aren't built for power but variety, where players can use those extra levels to pick up odd PrC abilities and such. So for a mid-level game with 12th level players the towns might be full of level 2 or 3 Rogue bartenders and Cleric acolytes, level 5 Wizards studying in an academy and Fighters as guards, level 8 Cleric priests in the church and Artificers working at magic shops, and then the notable NPCs like the high priest or thieves guild boss or royal guard are level 15. Again, built for the world, not optimized for maximum power. Just because a Wizard is a high level doesn't mean he can have access to any spell ever printed, because he may not know those spells even exist. But that way the players can be higher level and engage with the world without steamrolling over NPCs who fail every DC 11 saving throw or be thrown into that weird jolt where everyone's weak except "named NPCs" who are inexplicably stronger. It also takes a step toward explaining how a world can exist with travellers walking the roads and towns existing without being wiped out by bands of Goblins or a single Gray Render.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I like the Tippyverse. I'd play that kind of campaign, if I had a group for it. Especially the climb up, from lowly fighter to minor spellcaster to incantatrix to god wizard, is interesting.

That said, I do prefer a demographic where high-level characters are rare. The greater part of the world's individuals should not be earning bags of XP, getting perhaps 2-3 levels over a lifetime. For example, an advanced society of psion primordial half-giant psions is quite reasonable, but most of them should be level 2-3 at best.

I also prefer a setting where a wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 9/warblade 1 is a better fighter than a wizard 6/incantatrix 10, despite four lost caster levels (or maybe Practiced Spellcaster provides +1 level of casting, up to HD). That is, I like gishing, and in general feel that a synthesis of mundane skill (base attack, skill ranks, base saves, feats, maneuvers) with magical power should be the most efficient* way to do stuff, even in a very-high-magic Tippyverse setting.



*For example, Persistent divine power should not be the most efficient way to get full base attack/melee skill - taking levels in a gishy PrC should result in better melee combat performance. Magic can get you anything, but at a greater cost. As-is, in 3.5, magic often provides abilities on the cheap.

[Flickerdart]

Leaving aside other parts of the system like monsters and magic traps that can break typical faux-medieval assumptions in half, what kind ofclass breakdown do you think makes for the best campaign worlds? At what point does the world spiral off into really weird territory? How weird do you like your campaign worlds? How much mind-caulk is ok for you?

I like to think of demographics in terms of spheres of influence. It doesn't really matter how many people of Xth level or higher are in a particular city - the important part is how many such people are likely to take interest. The answer is - about one adventuring party's worth.

Each village probably has a handful of 1st level militiamen - warriors, fighters, rogues, rangers, whatever - who deal with local problems. Wolves eating the sheep? Call the boys. The baker is getting rowdy again? Call the boys. They spend most of their time as farmers or smiths or whatever, and don't bother going beyond earshot of the village.

Then there are people who have a rarer talent, who are problem-solvers on a wider scale. They might be veteran fighters (third level! wow!) or the priest of Pelor or some kid whose great-great-grandpappy shagged a dragon and now he makes fire come out of his nose. When the local militia fails to deal with a problem (the wolves turn out to have goblin riders, the baker sold his soul for dark powers) someone sends a runner to fetch these people. These people also likely know one another, so they can assemble rag-tag teams for dealing with issues that might concern a number of settlements. However, they don't have the muscle to deal with worse threats, nor the mobility to reach them in time to make a difference.

When the regional heroes can't crack the job, the people turn to professionals. Such heroes-for-hire live in towns, because smaller population densities mean that work doesn't come frequently enough to make a living. There's probably no more than a handful of them in a given town's vicinity, since there's only so much demand for their services. Since they have to be good to quest full-time (and hold down their turf against other adventurers looking for a base) these guys are 3rd level and above, potentially as high as 6th for the more underwhelming classes like monk. They don't care to deal with the problems lower-level NPCs face, because the pay-out is too low. The lord of the nearby castle has these guys on speed dial to deal with issues inside his limited holdings. Parties at this level have some logistical capabilities - mounts, flight - that allow them to operate across a large territory.

On the country level exists another adventuring party, too strong to bother with city-level problems. They're all 7th level or potentially even higher, capable of curing diseases, slaying some dragons, putting down rebellions, what have you. They travel speedily using magic steeds, flight, or limited-range teleportation, so that they can address all the issues in a country that lower-level parties can't handle. These are the heroes that swear fealty directly to the king, and sup at his table.

Once our boys hit 9th level, they unlock cool new spells like teleport, and now they can fight threats on a global scale. Wizards have multiple towers, clerics are known at every temple of their faith across the world, rogues have a collection of wanted posters in every language.

Past that - well, legend lore has the right of it - these heroes are legendary! They will spend most of their time on other planes, and won't affect your down-to-earth setting one bit. Well, unless they get bored and come back to spend a weekend with the parents.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[eminently sensible writeup]
Very much this, scaled up all the way to god-wizard.

[Tvtyrant]

I run E6 exclusively, so it is going to be aimed at that.
Levels are based on age and general experience.
Level 1: kids between 10 and 20.
Level 2: 20-30 year olds.
Level 3: 30-40
Level 4: 40+
Level 5-6: exceptional people, named NPCs. These are people who stand out, even if they have NPC class levels.

Then classes are based on percentages and societal roles.
Commoners: makes up roughly half the population where serfdom is common, disappears with public education or is a small percentage where guilds are. The poopsmiths of the world.
Experts: large minority in serf and slave populations, majority in free populations.
Magewrights and adepts: Makes up the parish priest or local magic shop owner.
Warriors: Basically a commoner or expert who spends some time in the field. Anyone who has a none fighting class switches it to this if they spend a few months on training and fight for a year or more.

People with good classes make up 10% of the population, split variably between different roles.

[Aotrs Commander]

From low-level to pretty much all the way up. One campaign made low epic. In general as we tend to play adventure paths (or, prior to them being A Thing, the equivilent), so we often start at 1 and go up0 to 16-17ish, depending where the material runs out.

Day quests tend to be a bit more variable; tend to start those higher, and they don't advance as much (given that we likely only play a given party once every 1-2 years).




For my own campaign world, my paradigm is that normal people will range from levels about 1-4 (with most adults being 2-3). I model my Tolkien-style "Elves is Better" by just shunting their racial average to up 6-8.

(I never have subscribed to E6, on the basis that I simply treat every set of rules as an imperfect simulation of the real world (rather than, like OotS does often, he actually rules of the world) and that the poorly-modelled portions of the game mechanics (like the terrain damage and such) are just that; and not lose any sleep about it. Rather, my own assumption is that the top level/epic level characters are more at the super-hero sort of level. (And for Middle-Earth, I have Rolemaster!))

[Grim Reader]

I work on the assumption that normal people gain levels based on what they mostly do.

Most people get a level when they reach adulthood, the next when they get to middle age and the third when they tip "old". As the age categories. The level is based on what they mostly do, although the first one is based on a bit less activity. So a farmer kid could train with weapons enough to make it a fighter level, et al. And Sorcery will out regardless.

Most villages will have the occasional old man or hag who have learned a bit more and gotten 1-2 levels more, but they are rare enough to be renowned three villages away. For villages well inside the borders of tamed lands, this is mostly commoner levels. A few experts working as smiths, carpenters and other skilled craftsmen. Cities have a higher fraction of them.

In the borderlands, classes such as Ranger, Fighter or Rogue become more common. A first level as a Ranger is a fairly reasonable thing in the lands where survival is more challenging.

Fear of death and desperation are wonderful motivators for learning. War, disaster and other "Interesting times" can skewer this, and leads to a level or two outside the normal progression. If a war burns all the crops, and the harvest fails repeatedly, the surviving peasants may band together as highwaymen represented as a level of Fighter or Rogue. Notorious bands will gain more levels over time. Or someone may move into the wilderness with their family, taking a level of Ranger.

Also, while a town or garrison guard that never sees any serious action will follow the normal progression, his brother who ends up on the frontline of several hard wars will likely be more experienced.

[Zombulian]

6-12 is my favorite level range for reasonable play, though I've played 3-6 so many times that I prefer 8 at the least these days.
For long campaigns I prefer a spellcaster type so I always have new spells or something to look forward to, but my group is so prone to one-offs (or 3-offs) that I can still have fun building one-trick-ponies because I know they won't last long.

[VonMuller]

The RAW demographics as per DMG. Since I play feudal campaigns, most thorps and towns don't have high level spellcasters.

It comes with some circumstances amd consequences that most Dnd settings don't touch, foe example: the bards that inhabit RAW settlements are perfectly fit for communication, and internal espionage, as well as entertainment.

This reinforces the importance of the bard making it so much more than a simple folk song writer or poet.

If we check the spells of bards and their availability, the bards are the postmen, notary publics, entertainers, news anchors and investigators of DnD settlements.

The spells of adepts and clerics allow for a somewhat safe lifestyle in settlements too. Most garrisons don't need sources of food or water if they are amall forts or towers, a couple of clerics suffice, only the general population needs to produce food for sustenance.

Spoilage of food is not a problem. Criminal prosecution is quite easier so wrong sentences are really uncommon, unless you are a PC or are in an evil settlement. And so many etceteras even in small towns.

The Big Cities are Tippyverse. The thorpes are low to no fantasy. So I guess the standard demographics lean towards that.

[Fizban]

The standard DMG breakdown provides enough casters to make the various "world-changing" effects exist, without anywhere near enough to actually change the world, which is just where you want it: enough magic to support and antagonize the PCs without having to think too hard about what it does where you're not looking. Most people manifestly do not care about anything that doesn't involve them, so unaligned casters just mind their own business. Higher level casters don't go around Control Winds and Fimbulwintering towns that annoy them because it would fail when all the similarly leveled casters in the town cast their own counters (and there's no profit to be made in the first place). Basically any city of sufficient size is safe from existential threats, though the outlying farms that support it are always vulnerable to damage. The only thing that threatens a city is an army with a city's worth of elites, who acting in unison can overwhelm whoever stands and fights.

The counts of non-casters are about the same, which does leave them somewhat annoyingly low. One can assume that while casters stay out of things because magic just works, brawlers and skilled types are all actively in the business, but you still don't have many for doing cool stuff. The simplest solution is to designate your cool knightly orders outside of the standard demographics so they can hit their builds, but trying to build low-level progressions is interesting. Not all of the holy pegasus knights are 10th level Sky Cavaliers, in fact the vast majority are 1st level fighters on pegusai that are loyal to the order and not the rider, or some cheaper domesticated flyer (a Glidewing and basic gear is within 1st level NPC wealth). And remembering that you only have 1 full time soldier per 100 people (that's close enough to real-world estimates), a Large City of 20,000 only has 200 soldiers, so with an average of 48 1st level fighters alone you've easily got enough classed people to fill those "combat" slots with some left over.

Other useful breakdowns from the DMG: you need a large town (2,000+) to have any reliable chance of finding spells above 1st level, with no guarantee those individuals will have the crafting feats to make the item you want even if it's under 3,000gp. A large city (12,000+) on the other hand can guarantee 5th level spells of all major types, and with three high persons of high level for each class there's a good chance someone can in fact make that item you want. A metropolis (25,000+) guarantees spells of 7th level and likely has some people capable of 8th level, but only clerics and druids have a chance to roll high enough to land 9th level spells naturally.

This page (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm) is quite handy for calibrating expectations of medieval population distribution, and it's already got rolls made up to generate randomly.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

I like PHB-banned, XPH +ToB +MoI classes only, campaigns.
Epic 6 rules on the prime material, but a possibility of higher level adventures in other planes (remember that psionics grants planar travel abilities much sooner than arcane and divine magic does through powers like Astral Caravan.)