Beneficial Glyph of Warding vs. Potion

[sir_argo]

I'm assuming this topic has already been covered, but I did a search of the forum and didn't see the thread. I'm sure someone will post a link...


I just saw the Sage Advice were Jeremy Crawford says you can make a Glyph of Warding cast a spell that is beneficial (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/829104094589616128). For this purpose, I think the preferred target would be a single sheet of parchment that can be rolled up and kept as a scroll. The person who opens the scroll and reads it will activate it on him/herself. A self-only spell that provides its own concentration is effectively the same as a potion. So I was trying to compare the differences between a glyph scroll and a potion. I don't know how much it costs to make a potion, but I think it would be the same as making a spell scroll, so I'm using the costs for a spell scroll from the recent UA Downtime. Again, correct me if that's wrong.




Glyph Scroll
(1st - 3rd)
Potion
(1st)
Potion
(2nd)
Potion
(3rd)


Crafting Cost
200gp
25gp
250gp
500gp


Crafting Time
1 hour
2 days
2 workweeks
4 workweeks


Weight
1 pound
(scroll case)
1/2 pound
1/2 pound
1/2 pound


Notes
requires two hands to read
subject to potion mixing side effects
subject to potion mixing side effects
subject to potion mixing side effects



Basically, if you're only going for a 1st level effect and you have some days to burn, making the potion is much, much cheaper. So making potions of Bless, Comprehend Languages, Jump, Longstrider, Mage Armor, and Sanctuary are all cheaper as potions. When you go to a 2nd level effect, the potion is marginally more expensive. But the moment you go to 3rd level, the potion is 2.5 times the cost of making a glyph scroll.

Is this just an advantage that Wizards have over Alchemists?

Do you see the costs as being unfair?

Is there a multiplier that I'm missing (potions are either half or double the cost of spell scrolls)?

If your DM does not allow for crafting of potions of any spell (limits it to what's in the DM's Guide), then it really gives glyph scrolls an advantage.

And any other comments you may have.

[StorytellerHero]

I just saw the Sage Advice were Jeremy Crawford says you can make a Glyph of Warding cast a spell that is beneficial (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/829104094589616128). For this purpose, I think the preferred target would be a single sheet of parchment that can be rolled up and kept as a scroll.

Glyph of Warding can be cast on an object, but once you carry the object more than 10 feet from where you made the glyph, the spell is dismissed AKA gone bye bye.

It's not to say that such a use is without merit however. Preparing to summon a potentially hostile creature from another plane may very well include many glyphs on objects within the room of the summoning in case the planned encounter turns into a battle.

[Mellack]

Glyphs are non-mobile. That is the big difference between them and potions. Now gylphs are still usefull if you have a base or some way of bringing your opponents to a prepared place.

[BruceLeeroy]

Gnome wizard hops inside a bag of holding. Cast Glyph of Warding: Conjure Elemental on a piece of paper. Hops outside bag of holding. Goes adventuring. Has an encounter. Draws piece of paper, speaks the trigger word, has an elemental. No concentration.

Wins.

[sir_argo]

Glyph of Warding can be cast on an object, but once you carry the object more than 10 feet from where you made the glyph, the spell is dismissed AKA gone bye bye.

It's not to say that such a use is without merit however. Preparing to summon a potentially hostile creature from another plane may very well include many glyphs on objects within the room of the summoning in case the planned encounter turns into a battle.

Doh! I had a different thought about that rule, but after reading it again, yeah... it seems that it is not something you could take with you.

However, I have a 4th level spell gem, I could put Glyph of Warding in that. During combat, I could cast Glyph of Warding + Haste as a single action on the floor next to me and then spend 5' of my movement to walk onto it. That would give me a concentration-free Haste spell.

But yeah, the idea of creating glyph scrolls did just get nixed.

---

But on the other hand, now I have this idea for a trap. Create four permanent zombies using Finger of Death on some hapless commoners. Stand each zombie in a different corner of a 20'x20' room. Give each zombie a small box with a Glyph of Fireball and the order that when a person enters the room, open the box. Boom... 4 fireballs that overlap in the room (except for the four corners, which each only get the effect of one fireball). Total of 32d6. Not very effective against Rogues with Evasion.

[sir_argo]

Gnome wizard hops inside a bag of holding. Cast Glyph of Warding: Conjure Elemental on a piece of paper. Hops outside bag of holding. Goes adventuring. Has an encounter. Draws piece of paper, speaks the trigger word, has an elemental. No concentration.

Wins.

When you cast Fly on a person, the person--not you--controls the Fly spell.

Conjure Elemental is not cast on a person. The glyph spell says if it summons hostile creatures, they attack the person who triggered the glyph. Conjured elementals are hostile. They only obey the person who cast the spell because they concentrate on controlling them. The glyph version does not act as if you cast it. So by the spell definition, I think the elemental would attack you.

[BruceLeeroy]

Sure. Conjure Elementals was an example spell, but for the sake of argument, cast invisibility, then pull out ten elementals. They don't see you, they attack something else. Whatever.

The point is that you can do it with any spell, without concentration. Haste, stoneskin, whatever. Just keep the glyphs in the bag of holding where you cast them until it's time to pull them out. Then activate them with a trigger word.

[sir_argo]

Just keep the glyphs in the bag of holding where you cast them until it's time to pull them out. Then activate them with a trigger word.

Is that because the inside of a Bag of Holding is considered a different plane of existence and so doesn't count as being moved more than 10 feet? Ugh. That just seems wrong.

[Mellack]

I personally think that moving between planes of existance would count as moving more than 10 feet.

[Mellack]

As for the spell gem to cast, you may want to clear that with your DM first. I presonally would rule that would be two spells (the Glyph and the spell you are incribing on the glyph) and would not be able to be contained in the gem that way. But I can certainly see some DM's being fine with it.

[BruceLeeroy]

Feel free to houserule however you want at your table, Mellack, but there's nothing in the RAW that defines movement across planar boundaries as being different than movement through normal space for purposes of spell effects.

[Dappershire]

Feel free to houserule however you want at your table, Mellack, but there's nothing in the RAW that defines movement across planar boundaries as being different than movement through normal space for purposes of spell effects.

Ooof, I really want to argue that, but I can't find anything pertinent.
Other than you would have to cast the spell from inside the bag of holding. If you cast it from outside, putting it in and taking it out somewhere else would break the spell without triggering it.
The text of Bag of Holding, does suggest that it uses the Astral as a Transitive Plane. If it does, then anything entering a Bag of Holding, is indeed using far more than 10 feet of movement.
As far as I know, Gate and Plane Shift are the only things that skip using a Transitive Plane.

[StorytellerHero]

Actually according to RAW, the Feywild and Shadowfell share the same cosmological space as the Material, and the Ethereal and Astral Planes overlap with the Material, so a plane shift (to the same space overlapping the point of origin) would not count as moving more than 10 feet for a glyph in those cases.

The Inner and Outer Planes however do NOT share or overlap space on the Material Plane, so those would count as moving more than 10 feet in the case of a plane shift since we ARE talking about spatial displacement here (distance is a measure of spatial displacement).

EDIT: This is in the Player's Handbook, in the actual section describing the planes.

[Mellack]

Actually according to RAW, the Feywild and Shadowfell share the same cosmological space as the Material, and the Ethereal and Astral Planes overlap with the Material, so a plane shift (to the same space overlapping the point of origin) would not count as moving more than 10 feet for a glyph in those cases.

The Inner and Outer Planes however do NOT share or overlap space on the Material Plane, so those would count as moving more than 10 feet in the case of a plane shift since we ARE talking about spatial displacement here (distance is a measure of spatial displacement).

EDIT: This is in the Player's Handbook, in the actual section describing the planes.

If the Astral planes overlap the same space with the material, than am I correct that moving around with an object in a bag of holding would be considered moving the object? The same as if it were carried in a regular pouch. You get to ignore the weight, but not distance. If that is true, then the whole idea fails.

[BiPolar]

It seems that either interpretation of planar movement wouldn't work. If they overlap, then movement in one plane is equal movement on the other. If they are not, you've exceeded the movement.

Either way, the intent is clearly for the glyphs to be made in once place and kept there. Otherwise it's a ring of spell storing.

[EvilAnagram]

The best use is for the DM. BBEG casters have no reason not to place Counterspell or healing glyphs in their lairs.

[mgshamster]

Feel free to houserule however you want at your table, Mellack, but there's nothing in the RAW that defines movement across planar boundaries as being different than movement through normal space for purposes of spell effects.

If that's the case then this falls under DM Ruling territory, not RAW territory.

If there's no rule that written down that says one way or another, it can't be RAW.

[Mellack]

I also can find nothing RAW that says just because something is kept in a bag of holding that it is not considered to be moving when the bag is moved.

[StorytellerHero]

If the Astral planes overlap the same space with the material, than am I correct that moving around with an object in a bag of holding would be considered moving the object? The same as if it were carried in a regular pouch. You get to ignore the weight, but not distance. If that is true, then the whole idea fails.

The description of the bag of holding doesn't actually specify whether it displaces objects held within it through the Astral Plane or summons from the same point in space in the Astral Plane, or even whether the objects inside it are actually in the Astral Plane. Whether a glyph carried in a bag of holding is spatially displaced when the bag itself moves is up to the DM.

Personally, I'd houserule that the extra dimensional space inside the bag of holding is inside the Astral Plane and appears as a glowing globular container floating in but not moving through the Astral Plane. This would explain how bags of devouring work because a creature in the Astral Plane could become attracted to the light and latch onto the bag of holding to turn it into a bag of devouring and move around without moving the bag of devouring on the Material Plane.

In this case, once the glyph is removed from the bag of holding more than 10 feet away from the point of casting however, the spell would fail anyway so it's no use unless you return to the point of casting later to take out the glyph.

[sir_argo]

I can envision creating a Demiplane with a number of spell glyphs on the ground for use during a major fight. As an action, I cast Demiplane. I interact with an object (the door) as part of my movement and enter my Demiplane, triggering any number of beneficial spell glyphs. I can actually finish out my movement by exiting the Demiplane. In theory, I could have a number of spells concentration free:


Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Invisibility
See Invisibility
Fly
Haste
Nondetection


I see no gotchas in that set up. But it does use up an 8th level slot to get this. Is it worth an 8th level slot to get those 7 spells cast on me, concentration free?