Is fighter 1/warlock X as powerful as I think it is?

[NecroDancer]

Assuming you are a bladelock you get con saves, the best armor, and 9th level spells. Your spellcasting is delayed by 1 level and you always have a a weapon. Add in the fact that you can Eldritch Blast as good as the rest of them and you have an extremely strong gish. With spells like armor of agathys, greater invisiblity, blink, fly, and hold person and you will be almost untouchable while dealing a lot of damage. I know it's not the strongest option but I still think it's extremely powerful (if you go fighter 2/warlock X you can get an action surge and deal about around 65 damage with lifedrinker/agonizing blast).

[Laurefindel]

Assuming you are a bladelock you get con saves, the best armor, and 9th level spells. Your spellcasting is delayed by 1 level and you always have a a weapon. Add in the fact that you can Eldritch Blast as good as the rest of them and you have an extremely strong gish. With spells like armor of agathys, greater invisiblity, blink, fly, and hold person and you will be almost untouchable while dealing a lot of damage. I know it's not the strongest option but I still think it's extremely powerful (if you go fighter 2/warlock X you can get an action surge and deal about around 65 damage with lifedrinker/agonizing blast).

Considering Fighter 2 and Warlock 2 are both a powerful benefit to virtually any class, yes, it's a powerful combo.

[Waazraath]

Yes, it is. And same goes for fighter 2/warlock X and fighter 3/warlock X.

[Ninja-Radish]

It's basically the only effective way to play a Bladelock, unless you take Hexblade as your patron. Without that level of Fighter, bladelock is unplayable.

It is effective no doubt, I just wish the developers hadn't made that level of Fighter mandatory by gimping the blade pact so hard.

[Dudu]

1 or 2 levels of fighter is wonderful for a lot of builds. See the "arcane knight" Fighter 2/Abjurer 18, for example.
In similar fashion, 2 levels of Warlock is wonderful as well. Currently playing a 2 Warlock/X Bard. His eldritch blast hits as hard as any warlock's. Also, two spell slots renewable by short rest.

Seriously, those two might be the best dips in 5.0.

So, yeah, Fighter 1/Warlock X might be strong, although I wouldn't rate it that impressive, just really good.

[bid]

I know it's not the strongest option but I still think it's extremely powerful (if you go fighter 2/warlock X you can get an action surge and deal about around 65 damage with lifedrinker/agonizing blast).
Fighter 2 / bladelock 12:
- PAM = 1d10+8+1d6 per attack, 82 overall
- maul = 2d6+9+1d6 per attack, 78 overall
- S&B = 1d8+9+1d6 per attack, 68 overall
- EB/AB = 1d10+4+1d6 per attack, 52 overall

Pure fighter 14:
- maul = 2d6+5 per attack, 72 overall
- PAM = 1d10+5 per attack, 70.5 overall

Bladelock gets more out of PAM but is tight on feat.
It has better spell selection than paladin too.

[Specter]

It's powerful, but mostly for defense, because as far as damage goes naked warlocks will always have bladelocks at will. Anybody ever understood why Agonizing Blast comes online at level 2 and Lifedrinker at level 12?

[skaddix]

It's basically the only effective way to play a Bladelock, unless you take Hexblade as your patron. Without that level of Fighter, bladelock is unplayable.

It is effective no doubt, I just wish the developers hadn't made that level of Fighter mandatory by gimping the blade pact so hard.

Even if your Bladelock. A 1 lvl dip still gets you a fighting style. 2 lvl dip is dependent on how much you value you ASIs.

As a Hexblade though I still go a 1 lvl dip.

I mean you probably want Resilient (WIS) and you are going to definitely want GWM. You cant be smiting for ever so you probably want your Two Handed Blade doing as much damage as possible. Great Weapon Fighting also helps. Or heck even Mariner. Plus gives you plate armor and your going to want to maximize strength hopefully via a nice Belt of Giant Strength.

it helps that the capstone Warlock ability is utter ****.

[Talionis]

A level of Cleric can go a long way as well. It can net you heavy armor and shields along with a lot of utility spells which can be cast out of your higher Warlock slots. Especially nice with Healing spells. Life Cleric gets a little bonus to Vampiric Touch which was nice to use to mop up.

[Waazraath]

It's basically the only effective way to play a Bladelock, unless you take Hexblade as your patron. Without that level of Fighter, bladelock is unplayable.

It is effective no doubt, I just wish the developers hadn't made that level of Fighter mandatory by gimping the blade pact so hard.

2 levels of paladin are fine as well; instead of concentration spells like hex (since you lack con saves proficiency) just go with smites, mirror image, AoA. It's a little painful that extra attack only comes at lvl 7, instead of lvl 6 with the fighter 1 dip, but oh well. Still playable.


It's powerful, but mostly for defense, because as far as damage goes naked warlocks will always have bladelocks at will. Anybody ever understood why Agonizing Blast comes online at level 2 and Lifedrinker at level 12?

Yes, because a melee fighter already adds a stat modifier to every hit, and lifedrinker lets you add 2x stat modifier. While agonizing blast is needed to add a stat modifier in the first place.

And we've already had lots of 'bladelocks' discussions on these boards. I'm not really eager to go through one of those again, but so far I've never seen convincingly made a case that the blastlock outperforms a well build bladelock. At some levels a blastlock has better DPR (at others, it doesn't). But all those DPR calculations don't take into account the extra damage that a melee bladelock does with AoA, can do with fire shield, and the fact that is actually being useful soaking hp damage at the frontline, instead of being at the back firing spells.

[Theodoxus]

And we've already had lots of 'bladelocks' discussions on these boards. I'm not really eager to go through one of those again, but so far I've never seen convincingly made a case that the blastlock outperforms a well build bladelock. At some levels a blastlock has better DPR (at others, it doesn't). But all those DPR calculations don't take into account the extra damage that a melee bladelock does with AoA, can do with fire shield, and the fact that is actually being useful soaking hp damage at the frontline, instead of being at the back firing spells.

Does it take into account the longevity enjoyed by being at the back and firing spells? Or, as commonly seen once they hit 5th level, flying 100' above the battlefield, completely free to rain down death from above?

Yeah, a Fiendish bladelock has a number of options that keep them around while in the front line, and definitely grabbing a level of fighter first for heavy armor and Con saves really helps. But the one player I had who did it (first time playing 5E and he'd read a lot online...) decided the level dip actually hurt his character more than it helped, as he was using spells more often than not. Of course, he regretted going bladelock as well... so someone who was actually dedicated to the concept probably wouldn't feel the same way.

Bladelocks will work well in a party that needs a frontline melee fighter-type. And going Fighter 1 first is pretty much a no-brainer...

[Specter]

Yes, because a melee fighter already adds a stat modifier to every hit, and lifedrinker lets you add 2x stat modifier. While agonizing blast is needed to add a stat modifier in the first place.

And we've already had lots of 'bladelocks' discussions on these boards. I'm not really eager to go through one of those again, but so far I've never seen convincingly made a case that the blastlock outperforms a well build bladelock. At some levels a blastlock has better DPR (at others, it doesn't). But all those DPR calculations don't take into account the extra damage that a melee bladelock does with AoA, can do with fire shield, and the fact that is actually being useful soaking hp damage at the frontline, instead of being at the back firing spells.

A melee lock also gets 4 attack rays, instead of just two attacks. So at level 17 you're looking at (at least) 4d10+4d6+20. Melee locks can't compete damage-wise. Maybe the Hexblade, but I don't take that seriously.

[rollingForInit]

It's basically the only effective way to play a Bladelock, unless you take Hexblade as your patron. Without that level of Fighter, bladelock is unplayable.

I agree that one level of fighter makes the bladelock significantly better, but to say that a bladelock is unplayable without is a bit of an exaggeration. If you max Str and Cha and take Polearm Mastery, you'll do a little more damage than EB+AB. You'll be an easier target because of melee, though. If you're a variant human you can make it better and grab something like Moderately Armored for better armor, or Mobile for an easier time to move out of range. You can also forego a little damage and dual-wield, which allows you to max Dexterity and increase AC.

A pure bladelock is worse than a Warlock using EB+AB, or a Fighter 1/Bladelock 19. But that's not unplayable. It deals decent damage, has spells. It's a bit squishy, but not much more than a rogue. And it has spells that can help with that.

[bid]

It's powerful, but mostly for defense, because as far as damage goes naked warlocks will always have bladelocks at will. Anybody ever understood why Agonizing Blast comes online at level 2 and Lifedrinker at level 12?
Because, at level 5:
- maul = 4d6+8 ~ 22
- EB/AB = 2d10+10 ~ 22

At level 12:
- maul/LD = 4d6+18 ~ 32
- EB/AB = 3d10+15 ~ 31.5


They do the same damage that way.

[Biggstick]

Fighter 2 / bladelock 12:
- PAM = 1d10+8+1d6 per attack, 82 overall
- maul = 2d6+9+1d6 per attack, 78 overall
- S&B = 1d8+9+1d6 per attack, 68 overall
- EB/AB = 1d10+4+1d6 per attack, 52 overall

Pure fighter 14:
- maul = 2d6+5 per attack, 72 overall
- PAM = 1d10+5 per attack, 70.5 overall


Because, at level 5:
- maul = 4d6+8 ~ 22
- EB/AB = 2d10+10 ~ 22

At level 12:
- maul/LD = 4d6+18 ~ 32
- EB/AB = 3d10+15 ~ 31.5

With both sets of calculations, you're leaving out GWM. A Fighter who's using PAM will almost definitely have GWM at level 14, as if they're a Human variant, they've maxed out their attack stat by level 6 or 8. That means (according to where your primary damage calculation happens, level 14.) the Fighter has had 2 ASI's to decide whether they want GWM. I think that's an important damage consideration that seems completely forgotten.

[bid]

With both sets of calculations, you're leaving out GWM. A Fighter who's using PAM will almost definitely have GWM at level 14, as if they're a Human variant, they've maxed out their attack stat by level 6 or 8. That means (according to where your primary damage calculation happens, level 14.) the Fighter has had 2 ASI's to decide whether they want GWM. I think that's an important damage consideration that seems completely forgotten.
Yep, feats help a lot.
{The second quote was about EB vs lifedrinker, I dunno why you added it.}

That doesn't stop bladelock from being powerful.
And it completely kills the "Lifedrinker at level 12 is way too late" argument.

[bid]

I agree that one level of fighter makes the bladelock significantly better, but to say that a bladelock is unplayable without is a bit of an exaggeration. If you max Str and Cha and take Polearm Mastery, you'll do a little more damage than EB+AB.
And you'll have no AC. Light armor + Dex doesn't work for a Str melee.

[Waazraath]

A melee lock also gets 4 attack rays, instead of just two attacks. So at level 17 you're looking at (at least) 4d10+4d6+20. Melee locks can't compete damage-wise. Maybe the Hexblade, but I don't take that seriously.

Welcome mister glaive, and Polearm Master. A high level build will have 1d10 + 1d6 + 10 / 1d10 + 1d6 + 10 / 1d4 + 1d6 + 10; that's 54,5 damage, compared to the 56 in your calculation above. BUT:
- that's without counting in the regular reaction attack the bladelock gets with polearm master
- without counting the figthing style (which is given, since we're talking fighter 1 / warlock X)
- without counting the damage from AoA (often 2 hits are needed to bring it down, even at high levels, no action required, 50 damage - won't work against ranged and spells though)
- without the possiblity to also take GWM, especially in combo with darkness / devil's sight for regular advantage (vhuman can still get max str and cha).
But also (on the other hand):
- without taking into acount that the bladelock needs the bonus action to cast hex, so won't be able to make the 1d4 + etc on the first round of combat (in practice, often this will be offset by the reaction attack on PAM).
- without taking into acount that the blastlock has slots free for cool stuff, if not spend on things like I mentioned above with the bladelock.

I won't bother with an all level analysis, also cause things like race, invocation, spell use and party tactics come into play. But it's safe to say that at some levels (5, 11 for example) a pure blastlock will come on top, damage wise, while at others (6-10) the PAM bladelock will do superior damage (having 3 attacks while the blastlock hasn't yet). They are both fine. Bladelock needs to be optimized, else it's realtive weak. But a well optimized bladelock, as has been shown more than once on these boards, is defenitely compatitive in damage with a blastlock.

[Gtdead]

I love the concept of the F 1/Bladelock x but in the end of the day, it's a niche build. I would probably use it in a 3 man party but generally I fail to see why it would be better than a Paladin, Paladorc or even a Tempest Cleric.

It's more of a "I Reaaaaally want to play a Warlock, but I have to fill the meatshield role too" than an awesome build in it's own right. And darkness can screw your party hard.

[NecroDancer]

I love the concept of the F 1/Bladelock x but in the end of the day, it's a niche build. I would probably use it in a 3 man party but generally I fail to see why it would be better than a Paladin, Paladorc or even a Tempest Cleric.

It's more of a "I Reaaaaally want to play a Warlock, but I have to fill the meatshield role too" than an awesome build in it's own right. And darkness can screw your party hard.

I personally hate the darkness combo, if you don't coordinate it with the rest of the party it can make the game crawl to the halt.

I don't see the build as niche, I see it as a way to use the pact of the blade effectively.

[Gtdead]

I personally hate the darkness combo, if you don't coordinate it with the rest of the party it can make the game crawl to the halt.

I don't see the build as niche, I see it as a way to use the pact of the blade effectively.

I mean the pact in general is niche. The build is efficient and I like it. I just don't see why I would want to play this other than because I like the concept. Having a bit higher damage than it's ranged counterpart for 4 levels is hardly a reason to pick it over anything really.

[joaber]

Fighter 1 is freat for a EB warlock too if you can pick close quarter shooter as fighting style, because this work with EB. +1 to hit, no desadvantage at melee, and ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover.
But probably would be better fighter1/warlock2/sorcerer rest to get quick spell.

Darkness is better for ranged attack, since you cam stay at distance from the rest of the party in darkness spaming EB

[Asmotherion]

Well, Warlock and Fighter are the most used class dips together with Paladin. You can't really go wrong about it, if you try.

[Gastronomie]

I haven't played Hexblade before so I'm not sure which is better, but at least my experience with 1/X Bladelocks was pleasantly badass. Although action economy makes it difficult for you to use multiple strategies during the same combat (unless the DM lets you use some spells before rolling initiative), it's certainly powerful and versatile.

[Ninja-Radish]

I love the concept of the F 1/Bladelock x but in the end of the day, it's a niche build. I would probably use it in a 3 man party but generally I fail to see why it would be better than a Paladin, Paladorc or even a Tempest Cleric.

It's more of a "I Reaaaaally want to play a Warlock, but I have to fill the meatshield role too" than an awesome build in it's own right. And darkness can screw your party hard.

Paladin sh*ts on every other melee class, so stating that the Fighter/Bladelock combination isn't as good as a pally isn't really saying much.

I disagree about the Tempest Cleric. If you're looking for a melee bruiser, the Bladelock is way better than the Cleric. Though the Cleric obviously has many other things going for it.

[Malifice]

It's powerful, but mostly for defense, because as far as damage goes naked warlocks will always have bladelocks at will.

My fighter/ warlock with great weapon mastery disagrees with this.

[skaddix]

Fighter 1 is freat for a EB warlock too if you can pick close quarter shooter as fighting style, because this work with EB. +1 to hit, no desadvantage at melee, and ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover.
But probably would be better fighter1/warlock2/sorcerer rest to get quick spell.

Darkness is better for ranged attack, since you cam stay at distance from the rest of the party in darkness spaming EB

Pretty worse comes to worse pick up Mariner or Protection. You got full armor proficiency anyway.

Honestly, a 1 lvl Dip in Fighter is worth it for Con Saves, Fighting Style and full armor/weapon proficiencies.

[Citan]

Assuming you are a bladelock you get con saves, the best armor, and 9th level spells. Your spellcasting is delayed by 1 level and you always have a a weapon. Add in the fact that you can Eldritch Blast as good as the rest of them and you have an extremely strong gish. With spells like armor of agathys, greater invisiblity, blink, fly, and hold person and you will be almost untouchable while dealing a lot of damage. I know it's not the strongest option but I still think it's extremely powerful (if you go fighter 2/warlock X you can get an action surge and deal about around 65 damage with lifedrinker/agonizing blast).
You can get the same armor with Mage Armor, by just pumping DEX.
Going Sorcerer nets you Free Mage Armor, same better Concentration, along with other cantrips and a few uses of Shield.

So, for one level, Fighter is only really worth if you want to go STR based Warlock or get medium armor + shield immediately (not interested in bumping DEX or STR because you want to rely only on CHA in the first place).
Otherwise Sorcerer is plain better.

When you consider another level though, Fighter clearly takes advantage because Action Surge is far better a feature than just another first-level slot and spell since it gives 1/short rest ability to do powerful combos (double EB, Dash/Attack, Greater Invisibility > Attack, etc).

For 3+ dips, well, both are "equally good" but in very different ways, and once you reach the "true multiclass" by taking a 4th level, Sorcerer gets the lead imo because you start getting enough Sorcery points to do nice things with it.


It's basically the only effective way to play a Bladelock, unless you take Hexblade as your patron. Without that level of Fighter, bladelock is unplayable.

It is effective no doubt, I just wish the developers hadn't made that level of Fighter mandatory by gimping the blade pact so hard.
Lol, please don't start again an endless thread with stupid trolls such as that.
Please first go read (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503557-Fixing-BladeLocks-via-Balancing&highlight=warlock) the threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507363-Don-t-tell-me-what-a-Bladelock-isn-t-tell-me-what-it-is&highlight=warlock) that started (and revolved around indefinitely) on that before thinking about derailing the thread with a personal opinion that is totally irrelevant to OP's question. ;)

Especially when Warlocks have so many good spells at their disposal.
A Bladelock level 12 that just want to hit things and otherwise doesn't care about spellcasting could (should?) go...
- Fiend Pact, casting Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield. This is by far the best defense you can give yourself against melee attackers.
Stack a Blur on it if you are really afraid of ranged people, but it diminishes greatly your overall efficiency (because you actually WANT melee people to hit you, if you are too hard to hit they wil just pick another target).
Becomes hilariously good if you have ways to reduce damage (barring multiclass, having a Cleric with Warding Bond or a Bard with Cutting Words) to keep Armor of Agathys a bit longer.

-Fey Pact, just take Medium Armor feat if he really wants better defense (shield on DEX, medium armor on STR/CHA), or Defensive Duelist, and otherwise cast Greater Invisibility: unless creatures can see you one way or another, you suffer no opportunity attack and attacks against you are made at a disadvantage.

Does Fighter 1 ease your life as a Bladelock? Certainly.
But required? Never!! Especially if you have a chance to get up to 12 (leveling is very slow imo past level 7 or so but obviously YMMV) and even more if you have a chance to get up to level 20 (capstone is underrated).

[djreynolds]

Why, when paladin is right there. Just get 6 of paladin, war caster and aura of protection is good enough for concentration checks... Plate Armor, heavy weapon, and smite... dump dex and simply avoid beholders and disintegration beams

[Citan]

Why, when paladin is right there. Just get 6 of paladin, war caster and aura of protection is good enough for concentration checks... Plate Armor, heavy weapon, and smite... dump dex and simply avoid beholders and disintegration beams
LOL.
And you seriously ask why?
Probably just because OP actually wants to play a Warlock. Not a gish he will feel alive only when he gets character level 10 minimum (sorry, Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 isn't a Warlock, it's just a Paladin with Hex and Eldricht Blast).

[djreynolds]

I know but it so good

Paladin 2/ warlock 18 is nice... heck even barbarian 2/ warlock is nice as reckless attack is always good (assuming no rage)

But yes 1 fighter/ x warlock is sweet.

[skaddix]

Well sure because Warlock runs on Charisma and So does a Paladin. And Eldritch Blast solves one of the classic Paladin's two problems. No Range and No AOE. It solves the former...depending on your Oath, you might get a good AOE option.


But yeah you really cant go wrong slapping Fighter 1 on any class. But that is more a function of most classes not having anything you really sacrifice if you ever even make it to 20. Because most level 20 Capstones are a minor recovery ability.

Barbarians pay a price, Free Stat Increases are especially valuable in DnD as is breaking the 20 Stat Cap seeing as only very rare wondrous items can do that. And Paladins would but they don't really need to dip Fighter for any benefits that are worth trading instead of becoming a living God. And Druids why bother if you want to melee you have wildshape. You be trading the most broken capstone in the game.

[djreynolds]

Perhaps cleric is as good of choice.

Every class wants wisdom and con save proficiency.

And that forge cleric gets the almighty shield spell, and heavy armor and healing.

Tempest and life cleric could be a good choice and thematic with the right patron

Most wizards will grab cleric just for armor as well.

[skaddix]

Forge is great especially in a low magic campaign where the items aren't flowing that free +1 can go a long way.

[Malifice]

LOL.
And you seriously ask why?
Probably just because OP actually wants to play a Warlock. Not a gish he will feel alive only when he gets character level 10 minimum (sorry, Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 isn't a Warlock, it's just a Paladin with Hex and Eldricht Blast).

I'm sorry but fighter 1/ warlock X is a warlock.

My Fighter 1/ warlock 1 in Tyranny of Dragons is currently laughing. He is a variant human with the Heavy Armour Master feat (DR 3) who milks 4 temporary hit points on a kill, and has a 1/ short rest second wind.

I'm mowing down Kobolds and Cultists with impunity, while dealing 3D6 + 3 damage (3 splash) per round.

Next level ill have a spare spell slot to toss out a hellish rebuke 1/short rest plus some invocations. The level after mirror image comes online. Then I get a feat and my cantrips scale increasing melee damage by 1D8. Then fireball and extra attack via thirsting blade.

[djreynolds]

Really almost any class can benefit from fighter save moon druid and barbarian.

I personally like paladin, I prefer wisdom and charisma saves and later grab resilient con. Strength saves are great and are common enough but misty step, if you have it, will get you out of trouble

But forge cleric could serve better, if only for heavy armor and the shield spell.

Warlock combos great with many classes. It is a very good class

[Citan]

Why, when paladin is right there. Just get 6 of paladin, war caster and aura of protection is good enough for concentration checks... Plate Armor, heavy weapon, and smite... dump dex and simply avoid beholders and disintegration beams


LOL.
And you seriously ask why?
Probably just because OP actually wants to play a Warlock. Not a gish he will feel alive only when he gets character level 10 minimum (sorry, Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 isn't a Warlock, it's just a Paladin with Hex and Eldricht Blast).


I'm sorry but fighter 1/ warlock X is a warlock.

:smallconfused:
I'm hesitating between...
*sighs* 'Some people never learn...'

and
*lol* it's so funny those people that react before actually reading!

[rollingForInit]

And you'll have no AC. Light armor + Dex doesn't work for a Str melee.

Did you intentionally skip the part where I talked about either grabbing appropriate feats for defenses, or just going Dex instead, for slightly lower average damage but much higher AC (especially with the Invocation for Mage Armor)?

[bid]

Did you intentionally skip the part where I talked about either grabbing appropriate feats for defenses, or just going Dex instead, for slightly lower average damage but much higher AC (especially with the Invocation for Mage Armor)?
"If you max Str and Cha and take Polearm Mastery"...
Str16 + 2 ASI = Str20, Cha16 + 2 ASI = Cha20, PAM feat.
The best you can do is half-elf 16 12 14 8 10 16, you'd need a 6th ASI for Dex14 and a 7th for moderately armored.

That's the part you skipped.

[Ninja-Radish]

You can get the same armor with Mage Armor, by just pumping DEX.
Going Sorcerer nets you Free Mage Armor, same better Concentration, along with other cantrips and a few uses of Shield.

So, for one level, Fighter is only really worth if you want to go STR based Warlock or get medium armor + shield immediately (not interested in bumping DEX or STR because you want to rely only on CHA in the first place).
Otherwise Sorcerer is plain better.

When you consider another level though, Fighter clearly takes advantage because Action Surge is far better a feature than just another first-level slot and spell since it gives 1/short rest ability to do powerful combos (double EB, Dash/Attack, Greater Invisibility > Attack, etc).

For 3+ dips, well, both are "equally good" but in very different ways, and once you reach the "true multiclass" by taking a 4th level, Sorcerer gets the lead imo because you start getting enough Sorcery points to do nice things with it.


Lol, please don't start again an endless thread with stupid trolls such as that.
Please first go read (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503557-Fixing-BladeLocks-via-Balancing&highlight=warlock) the threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507363-Don-t-tell-me-what-a-Bladelock-isn-t-tell-me-what-it-is&highlight=warlock) that started (and revolved around indefinitely) on that before thinking about derailing the thread with a personal opinion that is totally irrelevant to OP's question. ;)

Especially when Warlocks have so many good spells at their disposal.
A Bladelock level 12 that just want to hit things and otherwise doesn't care about spellcasting could (should?) go...
- Fiend Pact, casting Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield. This is by far the best defense you can give yourself against melee attackers.
Stack a Blur on it if you are really afraid of ranged people, but it diminishes greatly your overall efficiency (because you actually WANT melee people to hit you, if you are too hard to hit they wil just pick another target).
Becomes hilariously good if you have ways to reduce damage (barring multiclass, having a Cleric with Warding Bond or a Bard with Cutting Words) to keep Armor of Agathys a bit longer.

-Fey Pact, just take Medium Armor feat if he really wants better defense (shield on DEX, medium armor on STR/CHA), or Defensive Duelist, and otherwise cast Greater Invisibility: unless creatures can see you one way or another, you suffer no opportunity attack and attacks against you are made at a disadvantage.

Does Fighter 1 ease your life as a Bladelock? Certainly.
But required? Never!! Especially if you have a chance to get up to 12 (leveling is very slow imo past level 7 or so but obviously YMMV) and even more if you have a chance to get up to level 20 (capstone is underrated).

What I said isn't trolling at all, I actually like Bladelocks. What I said is also extremely relevant to the discussion. If you have a belief that everything the developers create is perfect and can't be improved, that's your opinion. Mine is that they gimped blade pact too hard and a level of fighter or something equivalent is necessary to make it competitive.

The OP is free to choose whose recommendation to accept, so take your self-righteous bullcrap somewhere else.

[skaddix]

"If you max Str and Cha and take Polearm Mastery"...
Str16 + 2 ASI = Str20, Cha16 + 2 ASI = Cha20, PAM feat.
The best you can do is half-elf 16 12 14 8 10 16, you'd need a 6th ASI for Dex14 and a 7th for moderately armored.

That's the part you skipped.

Well he is not totally wrong. Assuming you know you are going to get Gauntlets of Ogre Power or some Belts of Giant Strength. You don't really have to boost strength.

Granted you need one of your feats to be Resilient (WIS).

[joaber]

Welcome mister glaive, and Polearm Master. A high level build will have 1d10 + 1d6 + 10 / 1d10 + 1d6 + 10 / 1d4 + 1d6 + 10; that's 54,5 damage, compared to the 56 in your calculation above. BUT:
- that's without counting in the regular reaction attack the bladelock gets with polearm master
- without counting the figthing style (which is given, since we're talking fighter 1 / warlock X)
- without counting the damage from AoA (often 2 hits are needed to bring it down, even at high levels, no action required, 50 damage - won't work against ranged and spells though)
- without the possiblity to also take GWM, especially in combo with darkness / devil's sight for regular advantage (vhuman can still get max str and cha).
But also (on the other hand):
- without taking into acount that the bladelock needs the bonus action to cast hex, so won't be able to make the 1d4 + etc on the first round of combat (in practice, often this will be offset by the reaction attack on PAM).
- without taking into acount that the blastlock has slots free for cool stuff, if not spend on things like I mentioned above with the bladelock.

I won't bother with an all level analysis, also cause things like race, invocation, spell use and party tactics come into play. But it's safe to say that at some levels (5, 11 for example) a pure blastlock will come on top, damage wise, while at others (6-10) the PAM bladelock will do superior damage (having 3 attacks while the blastlock hasn't yet). They are both fine. Bladelock needs to be optimized, else it's realtive weak. But a well optimized bladelock, as has been shown more than once on these boards, is defenitely compatitive in damage with a blastlock.

Aaannd a sor17/lock2/fighter1 can do 8d10+8d6+40 all day. Get warcaster to spam more EB with reaction. And you can nova with things like meteor swarm if you want.
Blastlock is nice, bladelock too, but sorlock make things easier at high levels.

[NecroDancer]

Ironically one of the best things I like about fighter 1/warlock x is that I DON'T have proficiently in wisdom saves. This means I'll have -1 to wisdom saves/checks since my usual array would be 16, 10, 16, 10, 8, 14 after half orc stats. It helps play up the theme of crazy great old one/fey warrior (fiend while fun is a bit too "dark" and "edgy" for me, exspcially since I'm currently running a teifling feind-lock).

I don't know why but 90% of the time wisdom is my dump stat instead of intelligence.

[Waazraath]

Blastlock is nice, bladelock too

Totally agree with that conclusion. My point isn't that bladelock is the Great Answer to All Questions Regarding Damage, but in respons to the remark that "bladelocks can't compete in damage". They can.

I don't know much about sorlock, but I assume trading in spellslots for sorcery points, and spending them to quicken EB, with hex? (since twin wouldn't work) That's not an endless supply, but I can image the day is over before you run out. Of course, a bladelock also has big gun options with his level 6 7 8 9 spell, depending on selection.

[skaddix]

Yes the Sorlock is all about quickening EB.
Granted Unearthed Arcana has open a Gish Sorlock Option. Thanks to Pact Weapon Summons.

[Malifice]

Aaannd a sor17/lock2/fighter1 can do 8d10+8d6+40 all day.

No, they cant. They'll run out of sorcery points after not very long.

[joaber]

No, they cant. They'll run out of sorcery points after not very long.

I'm talking about lvl 20...
normal day 6-8 encounters(not necessary combat encounter), 2 short rest, most encounters have 3-5 rounds, first round or before fight start he change hex. So let say they need quick spell for 21 turns, this means 42 SP.

They have 17, convert warlock spellslots means +6/day (2 short rest). convert all slots of lvl 1 to 3 is more 19... done 42 SP, and you still have:

3 - 4th lvl
2 - 5th lvl (one for daily hex)
1 - 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th

[Dudewithknives]

Aaannd a sor17/lock2/fighter1 can do 8d10+8d6+40 all day. Get warcaster to spam more EB with reaction. And you can nova with things like meteor swarm if you want.
Blastlock is nice, bladelock too, but sorlock make things easier at high levels.

You can not cast EB using Warcaster, well not past level 4 anyway.

[Malifice]

I'm talking about lvl 20...
normal day 6-8 encounters(not necessary combat encounter), 2 short rest, most encounters have 3-5 rounds, first round or before fight start he change hex. So let say they need quick spell for 21 turns, this means 42 SP.

They have 17, convert warlock spellslots means +6/day (2 short rest). convert all slots of lvl 1 to 3 is more 19... done 42 SP, and you still have:

3 - 4th lvl
2 - 5th lvl (one for daily hex)
1 - 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th

Hex will drop (you'll fail a Con save eventually) so that'll chew up a few more slots.

Hilariously it pushes you back 80' per round (I rule that the repelling blast invocation works 1/round in my own games).

Sadly it has to wait till around 10th level+ to be able to do it regularly.

I may look into Agonizing blast and change it from + Cha to all blasts to + Warlock level (and change EB to be a single blast dealing from 1-4d10). Add a new invocation that increases Hex to +1d6 damage to Eldritch blast at 5th, 11th and 17th (lets call it Accursed Hex). Requirement lock level 5 (and Eldritch blast and Hex).

This makes Blast locks need 3 invocations (meaning you cant nab all three with a single dip, and putting them on par with Blade locks). It reduces the potency of the 2 level lock Dip and rewards career Warlocks, and speeds the game up (1 attack roll resolution).

[Gastronomie]

To be fair, most level 20 builds can do pretty much anything.

I think the power of a build should be focused on levels 5~12 (and for the record, 1/X Bladelock stays pretty damn effective from level 6 and higher).

[Klorox]

1 or 2 levels of fighter is wonderful for a lot of builds. See the "arcane knight" Fighter 2/Abjurer 18, for example.
In similar fashion, 2 levels of Warlock is wonderful as well. Currently playing a 2 Warlock/X Bard. His eldritch blast hits as hard as any warlock's. Also, two spell slots renewable by short rest.

Seriously, those two might be the best dips in 5.0.

So, yeah, Fighter 1/Warlock X might be strong, although I wouldn't rate it that impressive, just really good.

Where can I read more about this "arcane knight"?

[monkey3]

Fighter 2 / bladelock 12:
- PAM = 1d10+8+1d6 per attack, 82 overall
- maul = 2d6+9+1d6 per attack, 78 overall
- S&B = 1d8+9+1d6 per attack, 68 overall
- EB/AB = 1d10+4+1d6 per attack, 52 overall

Pure fighter 14:
- maul = 2d6+5 per attack, 72 overall
- PAM = 1d10+5 per attack, 70.5 overall

Bladelock gets more out of PAM but is tight on feat.
It has better spell selection than paladin too.


I am not following this math. Please correct me where I am wrong:

Fighter 2 / bladelock 12:
- PAM = 1d10+8+1d6 per attack, -> 2 attacks: 2d10 + 8 + (bonus) d4 + 4 = 25.5
- maul = 2d6+9+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 19.5 x 2 attacks = 39 I don't know where that +9 is coming from
- S&B = 1d8+9+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 17 x 2 attacks = 34 I don't know where that +9 is coming from
- EB/AB = 1d10+4+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 13 x 3 attacks = 39

Pure fighter 14:
- maul = 2d6+5 per attack, -> Ave: 12 x 3 attacks = 36
- PAM = 1d10+5 per attack, -> 3 attacks: 3d10 + 15 + (bonus) d4 + 5 = 39

ALL above numbers can be doubled 1/rest thanks to action surge.

[joaber]

Hex will drop (you'll fail a Con save eventually) so that'll chew up a few more slots.

Hilariously it pushes you back 80' per round (I rule that the repelling blast invocation works 1/round in my own games).

Sadly it has to wait till around 10th level+ to be able to do it regularly.

I may look into Agonizing blast and change it from + Cha to all blasts to + Warlock level (and change EB to be a single blast dealing from 1-4d10). Add a new invocation that increases Hex to +1d6 damage to Eldritch blast at 5th, 11th and 17th (lets call it Accursed Hex). Requirement lock level 5 (and Eldritch blast and Hex).

This makes Blast locks need 3 invocations (meaning you cant nab all three with a single dip, and putting them on par with Blade locks). It reduces the potency of the 2 level lock Dip and rewards career Warlocks, and speeds the game up (1 attack roll resolution).

Yes, but by RAW, you can sustain it all day. You can use 1st lvl hex too, even losing concentration, you still have enought spellslots to burn. Obviously you'll prefer to use slots in spells many times.

[bid]

I am not following this math. Please correct me where I am wrong:

Fighter 2 / bladelock 12:
- PAM = 1d10+8+1d6 per attack, -> 2 attacks: 2d10 + 8 + (bonus) d4 + 4 = 25.5
- maul = 2d6+9+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 19.5 x 2 attacks = 39 I don't know where that +9 is coming from
- S&B = 1d8+9+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 17 x 2 attacks = 34 I don't know where that +9 is coming from
- EB/AB = 1d10+4+1d6 per attack, -> Ave: 13 x 3 attacks = 39

Pure fighter 14:
- maul = 2d6+5 per attack, -> Ave: 12 x 3 attacks = 36
- PAM = 1d10+5 per attack, -> 3 attacks: 3d10 + 15 + (bonus) d4 + 5 = 39

ALL above numbers can be doubled 1/rest thanks to action surge.
Not quite, the bonus action is not doubled.

NecroDancer was using action surge, that's why my numbers were double yours.
Aside from that:
- lifedrinker adds Cha to damage {Str20 and Cha18 = +9, +8 if you get PAM instead}
- your PAM misses lifedrinker and hex,
- EB/AB was off as you found out, should be 79.

Other than that, it's the same numbers I think.

[NecroDancer]

Yep I was counting the action surge

[Malifice]

Yes, but by RAW, you can sustain it all day.

Depends on the length of the day. Should last through your standard 6-8 encounter day though.

Starting at around 12th level.

Which is around the time most DMs ragequit because they dont know how to deal with high level PCs and the campaign ends.


You can use 1st lvl hex too, even losing concentration, you still have enought spellslots to burn. Obviously you'll prefer to use slots in spells many times.

Thats how I would do it. Makes the pain of losing concentration a minor annoyance.

Of course it takes 1 round to get going (Round one, bonus action to lay on or cast Hex, action to cast Eldritch blast. Round two, action to cast Eldritch blast, bonus action quicken Eldritch blast).

You'll probably be using every other bonus action to shift hex when your target dies or recast Hex, and quickening every other round (which actually helps your resource management).

You'll bounce from standard (EB+Hex) damage to (2x [EB+hex]) damage.

[joaber]

Depends on the length of the day. Should last through your standard 6-8 encounter day though.

Starting at around 12th level.

Which is around the time most DMs ragequit because they dont know how to deal with high level PCs and the campaign ends.



Thats how I would do it. Makes the pain of losing concentration a minor annoyance.

Of course it takes 1 round to get going (Round one, bonus action to lay on or cast Hex, action to cast Eldritch blast. Round two, action to cast Eldritch blast, bonus action quicken Eldritch blast).

You'll probably be using every other bonus action to shift hex when your target dies or recast Hex, and quickening every other round (which actually helps your resource management).

You'll bounce from standard (EB+Hex) damage to (2x [EB+hex]) damage.

Yep, this would work that way. Even so, you will want to use other concentration spells , like hold monster.

[monkey3]

Not quite, the bonus action is not doubled.

NecroDancer was using action surge, that's why my numbers were double yours.
Aside from that:
- lifedrinker adds Cha to damage {Str20 and Cha18 = +9, +8 if you get PAM instead}
- your PAM misses lifedrinker and hex,
- EB/AB was off as you found out, should be 79.

Other than that, it's the same numbers I think.

Ah yes. I missed lifedrinker and hex on PAM bonus. Thanks for the explanations.

It looks like EB is the way to go. Fewer feats, less MAD, and with range you are never missing turns running up to you target.

[BigONotation]

These are my thoughts about this discussion (and also my homebrew rules):

Cantrips other than EB should scale once at 11th.
EB should only scale with Warlock level.

These two changes cut a lot of the cheese out of Warlock dips and make the melee warlock vastly more valuable.

[bid]

It looks like EB is the way to go. Fewer feats, less MAD, and with range you are never missing turns running up to you target.
Yep, at worst you grab crossbow expert to solve the melee range.

Still, a full caster gish is hard to get and bladelock can be powerful if you are careful.

[djreynolds]

Not to get off topic, but a bladesinger at 14th level... his dex and int adds to his AC and damage output. 2 attacks also

Warlock is a fine class, but after looking at stuff starting cleric maybe just as good.

You will want both wisdom and con save proficiency, but I could live with wisdom save proficiency and war caster

[Aidamis]

Please do pardon the necro but as someone who just made Fighter 1 build with the help of this wonderful community, I couldn't help but become interested.

In my humble opinion Fighter 1 is definitely a great package, though I still would consider taking at least Fighter 2 if only for the sake of Action surge. I'd say it depends on whether the campaign will allow you to get up to very high levels and/or whether you start at higher levels vs just level 1.
If you can afford the extra delay, I think Fighter 2 is a great investment.

[JakOfAllTirades]

My fighter/ warlock with great weapon mastery disagrees with this.

Huh. My single classed Bladelock disagrees with this entire thread. Unplayable, indeed....

[Roland St. Jude]

Please do pardon the necro... Sheriff: Please don't do this.