Heart Transplantation

[xkroku]

My next session is coming, so I was viciously plotting on how to give my players a hard time, and this one idea came to my mind.

Would it work, if a lich PAOd it's phylactery into a human heart and transplanted it with one PCs heart?

There's much to figure out, like how to kidnap the poor PC without anyone knowing, how to make the heart work, and how to actually transplant it, but is the general idea possible? If you have some actual spells or techniques for it, go ahead and tell me!

Also sorry for my probably bad medical terms.

Edit1:
Ok, so far with the help of the forum i have figured out that:
-PAO doesn't work for Magical objects, so that goes out
-Let's say he can make it as sort of a custom-made construct graft graft
-Let's say that the thing would be Tiny size

This I have more or less figured out (players aren't gonna argue about this i guess, we've been pulling off worse stuff)

[Honest Tiefling]

Why make it the heart? Hearts are muscle and can be sauteed with garlic and known for being flammable.

Why not make it something embedded into the PC instead? Like a gem put into them. PCs have a survival rate of 'Not really', anyway. Why tie it to a breakable part, as opposed to using the PC in question as a cover?

Also, why does this have to happen BEFORE the campaign? Does anyone in your group seem like they'd be open to you messing with their background? If you think someone wouldn't mind, just bake it into their backstory. A priest they went to as a child did the ritual to implant the gem or whatever when they were but a child, and none the wiser. Any one with a unknown background or one including elements of being sick and injured are acceptable targets.

Extra points if you do this to a Sorcerer for giggles. Even if they have draconic ancestry and wish to explore it AFTER you have laid down clues, the Lich might have just picked a sorcerer to feed from their power.

[Remuko]

Why make it the heart? Hearts are muscle and can be sauteed with garlic and known for being flammable.

Why not make it something embedded into the PC instead? Like a gem put into them. PCs have a survival rate of 'Not really', anyway. Why tie it to a breakable part, as opposed to using the PC in question as a cover?

Also, why does this have to happen BEFORE the campaign? Does anyone in your group seem like they'd be open to you messing with their background? If you think someone wouldn't mind, just bake it into their backstory. A priest they went to as a child did the ritual to implant the gem or whatever when they were but a child, and none the wiser. Any one with a unknown background or one including elements of being sick and injured are acceptable targets.

Extra points if you do this to a Sorcerer for giggles. Even if they have draconic ancestry and wish to explore it AFTER you have laid down clues, the Lich might have just picked a sorcerer to feed from their power.

I assume its so if the PC's find out what has happened they would have to destroy the heart keeping their ally/self alive in order to stop the Lich from respawning.

[xkroku]

Oh, sorry, I think I didn't made it all clear, it isn't a new campaing, it's just a next session, they're at level 9 now

[xkroku]

I assume its so if the PC's find out what has happened they would have to destroy the heart keeping their ally/self alive in order to stop the Lich from respawning.

Yes, thats exactly the reason

[Honest Tiefling]

I assume its so if the PC's find out what has happened they would have to destroy the heart keeping their ally/self alive in order to stop the Lich from respawning.

Hrm, yes. An interesting dilemma, but I think if they have enough resources to resurrect a party mate, you have similar resources to aid in open chest surgery with a sword. There might also be protections that bind the gem to the individual, so removing it isn't just a matter of hack n' slash.

Even if it is an on-going campaign, I see no reason you cannot mess with a player's backstory, provided you believe they might be open to this. Or you could drop hints something mysterious about a character's backstory, and if they seem to not be enjoying it make it clear it was the lich screwing with their head.

[atemu1234]

What happens if the Lich dies? 1d10 days later, the PC gets a chestburster?

[Andezzar]

What happens if the Lich dies? 1d10 days later, the PC gets a chestburster?Nobody knows. The books are silent on where liches respawn. It might just as well be wherever its corpse is.

[CIDE]

Last I checked pao can't polymorph magical objects. I know you're the DM and you can do what you want but pao the phylactery seems to be the automatic response to hiding it in most threads.

[xkroku]

Last I checked pao can't polymorph magical objects. I know you're the DM and you can do what you want but pao the phylactery seems to be the automatic response to hiding it in most threads.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.
But what about this (from the lich's entry in the SRD):


"The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed."

"Most common", so the phylactery can be about anything else i guess (including perhaps a functioning human heart :smallbiggrin:).

[CIDE]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.
But what about this (from the lich's entry in the SRD):



"Most common", so the phylactery can be about anything else i guess (including perhaps a functioning human heart :smallbiggrin:).


Construct graft for the heart, maybe? Grafts are magic items. There could be something there.

[Jowgen]

Construct graft for the heart, maybe? Grafts are magic items. There could be something there.

Construct grafts are found in Faiths of Eberron, and I believe that they actually represent the most elegant solution because while "A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it." (LM p. 151), "A graft is not a magic item" (FoE p. 156). As such, there should be no issue in turning a not-yet-transplanted construct graft into a phylactery (whose defintion is sufficiently open-ended to allow for this afaik).

Heart of Steel would fit thematically, and while its benefits are notable, so are the drawbacks. Wakeful Mind Graft would also fit, and it is a notably better grafter over-all.

[CIDE]

Construct grafts are found in Faiths of Eberron, and I believe that they actually represent the most elegant solution because while "A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it." (LM p. 151), "A graft is not a magic item" (FoE p. 156). As such, there should be no issue in turning a not-yet-transplanted construct graft into a phylactery (whose defintion is sufficiently open-ended to allow for this afaik).

Heart of Steel would fit thematically, and while its benefits are notable, so are the drawbacks. Wakeful Mind Graft would also fit, and it is a notably better grafter over-all.


I love it. I know I'd allow it (or use it) in my games. Thematically fun and all that.

[Rainshine]

In the PF (I know) adventure Emerald Spire, there's a robot with a clockwork heart that you encounter. The heart is loud and noisy and touching it causes a will save, or you press it against yourself and it's absorbed into you (replacing your normal heart, giving a con bonus, and oh yeah, it's a phylactery.) If the lich dies, it says the heart begins to rebuild the body 'nearby', which I'm curious what that looks like to the traveling adventurer.

[Zaq]

Also, don't forget that by RAW, a phylactery is Tiny. Not Fine. Tiny. So the same size as a cat or a small dog or an infant. Everyone thinks a phylactery is something that you can fit in a pocket, but a typical phylactery takes some damn large pockets. (Yes, the final sentence in that paragraph indicates that other phylacteries can exist, but they don't actually have rules or stats, so they might not be nearly so resilient as the statted box, and it doesn't actually say whether those other items have to be Tiny or not.) I know you're already using PaO and getting at least ankle-deep in Rule of Cool (which is 100% okay in my book), but it's something worth mentioning.

[Remuko]

Also, don't forget that by RAW, a phylactery is Tiny. Not Fine. Tiny. So the same size as a cat or a small dog or an infant. Everyone thinks a phylactery is something that you can fit in a pocket, but a typical phylactery takes some damn large pockets. (Yes, the final sentence in that paragraph indicates that other phylacteries can exist, but they don't actually have rules or stats, so they might not be nearly so resilient as the statted box, and it doesn't actually say whether those other items have to be Tiny or not.) I know you're already using PaO and getting at least ankle-deep in Rule of Cool (which is 100% okay in my book), but it's something worth mentioning.

i dont think tiny objects and tiny creatures are the same.

[Zaq]

i dont think tiny objects and tiny creatures are the same.

Got a rules quote for that? I seem to recall that object sizes were probably different in 3.0, but I don't know of any such wording for 3.5.

The closest I can find is a list of object sizes on pg. 107 of the Rules Compendium, but most of them still seem to match creature sizes, more or less (a wagon is Huge, a barrel is Medium, etc.). The example for Tiny is a book, which I suppose is arguably a bit smaller than a cat, but not drastically so, at least for a big book. (After all, a big dog like a collie or a husky is Medium, as per MM pg. 272, and while a husky is clearly not the exact same size as an adult human, it's not unreasonable to call them the same size category; so it is with books and cats.) And remember that D&D books are mostly on thick and heavy parchment or something similar, not modern paper, so most D&D books aren't going to be slim little trade paperbacks.

I do 100% appreciate the fact that the example for Colossal is the broad side of a barn and the example for Gargantuan is the narrow side of a barn.

[xkroku]

Than you all very much for all the help :smallbiggrin:

Now, what's the best way to put out PC, and which would be the best? (on the menu there are: Psion, high Will Save, others very low; Fighter/Sorc/Warblade/whatever, high Fort, Will moderate; Tanky Dwarf, nearly every save high, Fort is VERY buffed)

I'm thinking on kidnappig the unfortunate PC with Scrying+Teleport (sleeping creatures=willing creatures right?)+Teleport back while he sleeps in his room in a tavern, unaware of the thread. But when the BBEG gets to the room, how would he knock him out? I'm afraid normal sleep wouldn't be enough. One thing that comes to my mind is nonlethal damage, but I don't know of any spell that would give the desired effect.

[Jowgen]

Than you all very much for all the help :smallbiggrin:

Now, what's the best way to put out PC, and which would be the best? (on the menu there are: Psion, high Will Save, others very low; Fighter/Sorc/Warblade/whatever, high Fort, Will moderate; Tanky Dwarf, nearly every save high, Fort is VERY buffed)

I'm thinking on kidnappig the unfortunate PC with Scrying+Teleport (sleeping creatures=willing creatures right?)+Teleport back while he sleeps in his room in a tavern, unaware of the thread. But when the BBEG gets to the room, how would he knock him out? I'm afraid normal sleep wouldn't be enough. One thing that comes to my mind is nonlethal damage, but I don't know of any spell that would give the desired effect.

If you're going with the Steel Heart, I'd suggest the Dwarf or Fighter, if you're doing the Wakeful Mind, then one of the casters.

Have you considered offering the phylactery-graft to them under the guise of a good deal offered by an NPC? The benefits are pretty decent on both, and if you offer at a discount, one of the players might just take you up on it.

[EdRed]

PAO doesn't work for Magical objects, so that goes out

While that is true, you can cast Dispel Magic on a Magical Item to turn it nonmagical for 1d4 rounds. Which would in turn arguably make it a viable target for PAO during those rounds ... and the spell does not really care afterwards.

[CIDE]

While that is true, you can cast Dispel Magic on a Magical Item to turn it nonmagical for 1d4 rounds. Which would in turn arguably make it a viable target for PAO during those rounds ... and the spell does not really care afterwards.

Yeah, but then when the dispel is over and it's no longer the same item would it really have the same magic in place?

[atemu1234]

Yeah, but then when the dispel is over and it's no longer the same item would it really have the same magic in place?

No matter how much you think that would destroy a magic item, there's no rules support for that interpretation either. I'll ere on the side of ontological inertia here.

[Zanos]

I'm thinking on kidnappig the unfortunate PC with Scrying+Teleport (sleeping creatures=willing creatures right?)+Teleport back while he sleeps in his room in a tavern, unaware of the thread. But when the BBEG gets to the room, how would he knock him out? I'm afraid normal sleep wouldn't be enough. One thing that comes to my mind is nonlethal damage, but I don't know of any spell that would give the desired effect.
I'm not 100% certain that this is the best idea.

DM: "Okay, so a Lich starts growing out of you. Seems you're a phylactery."
Player: "What, how?"
DM: "Oh, he used scrying and teleport to teleport to you while you were sleeping, knocked you unconscious, replaced your heart with his phylactery, and then you woke back up without ever noticing."
Player: "What? Did I piss him off somehow?"
DM: "Nah, you don't even know him. Also if you want to stop him from coming back, gonna have to carve your own heart out."
Player: "wat (https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Black-Girl-Wat.jpg)"

It's fun to think about ways to make this work, but I'm not sure it'd go over so well.

[xkroku]

I'm not 100% certain that this is the best idea.

DM: "Okay, so a Lich starts growing out of you. Seems you're a phylactery."
Player: "What, how?"
DM: "Oh, he used scrying and teleport to teleport to you while you were sleeping, knocked you unconscious, replaced your heart with his phylactery, and then you woke back up without ever noticing."
Player: "What? Did I piss him off somehow?"
DM: "Nah, you don't even know him. Also if you want to stop him from coming back, gonna have to carve your own heart out."
Player: "wat (https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Black-Girl-Wat.jpg)"

It's fun to think about ways to make this work, but I'm not sure it'd go over so well.

The thing is, they know the lich already. They just don't know he's a Lich. He's kind of a shady leader of even shadier guild. Always in mask, coat, concealing his true identity with a lot of Disguise Self and Prestidigitation (the smell) and many other spells. My group is mainly Alternative Evil (C/N) alignment so they have done some quest for him already. And since this is taking place in a big city, the Shady Lich Guy is plotting an intrigue, and will need to get rid of them eventually.

[TheBrassDuke]

Got a rules quote for that? I seem to recall that object sizes were probably different in 3.0, but I don't know of any such wording for 3.5.

The closest I can find is a list of object sizes on pg. 107 of the Rules Compendium, but most of them still seem to match creature sizes, more or less (a wagon is Huge, a barrel is Medium, etc.). The example for Tiny is a book, which I suppose is arguably a bit smaller than a cat, but not drastically so, at least for a big book. (After all, a big dog like a collie or a husky is Medium, as per MM pg. 272, and while a husky is clearly not the exact same size as an adult human, it's not unreasonable to call them the same size category; so it is with books and cats.) And remember that D&D books are mostly on thick and heavy parchment or something similar, not modern paper, so most D&D books aren't going to be slim little trade paperbacks.

I do 100% appreciate the fact that the example for Colossal is the broad side of a barn and the example for Gargantuan is the narrow side of a barn.

Phylacteries can be made of rings and diadems, all of which are tiny objects.

[Stealth Marmot]

As much as you think this is an obstacle for the party, they are only a raise dead scroll and a lost level away from killing the phylactery once they find out where it is.

[Keral]

As much as you think this is an obstacle for the party, they are only a raise dead scroll and a lost level away from killing the phylactery once they find out where it is.

Well, I'm not sure what has been decided, but if the Pc's heart or whatever body part gets swapped for the phylactery they might need Resurrection, rather than raise dead. Since otherwise the missing piece would still be missing and, without the phylactery working in its place, cause a raise dead-ed creature not to able to stay alive?

That's my understanding, at least.

[xkroku]

As much as you think this is an obstacle for the party, they are only a raise dead scroll and a lost level away from killing the phylactery once they find out where it is.

Yeah, I know that, but I like the concept anyway

To give them even more hard time, I thought of casting Glyph of Warding and some spell to prevent Raise Dead, so Resurrection or better will be required (Death descriptor spells work like that i think, Diaintegrate works too)

[xkroku]

Well, I'm not sure what has been decided, but if the Pc's heart or whatever body part gets swapped for the phylactery they might need Resurrection, rather than raise dead. Since otherwise the missing piece would still be missing and, without the phylactery working in its place, cause a raise dead-ed creature not to able to stay alive?

That's my understanding, at least.

That's a very great idea! :smallbiggrin:

[Honest Tiefling]

To give them even more hard time, I thought of casting Glyph of Warding and some spell to prevent Raise Dead, so Resurrection or better will be required (Death descriptor spells work like that i think, Diaintegrate works too)

Perhaps give them a sweet, sweet, sweet artifact that will require the player character in question to stay alive? Such as a condition that if you fall with it, it goes to a new, worthier successor? Or that each time someone is raised, it requires money and such to perform the ritual to bind it so its abilities work?

[xkroku]

Perhaps give them a sweet, sweet, sweet artifact that will require the player character in question to stay alive? Such as a condition that if you fall with it, it goes to a new, worthier successor? Or that each time someone is raised, it requires money and such to perform the ritual to bind it so its abilities work?

Satan is that you?

love the idea, will definitely use

this whole thing just keeps getting more devilish

[Honest Tiefling]

Satan is that you?

Nah, that's grandpa, hence the tiefling-ness.

Another idea is...Would other goodly adventurers (or evil ones with an axe to grind) be finding out about this heart transplant? As a DM, I always find it useful to have heavily armed people burst through the door if I ever paint myself into a corner.