Would this be a decent dodge rework?

[SangoProduction]

The goal of this is to make it a meaningful use of a feat, while maintaining that it's basically singling out a person who you're evading attacks from with preternatural skill.

Name: Dodge

Benefit: Choose a dodge target as a free action. You may have up to one dodge target at a time.

You gain a 10% + 5% per 3 levels "evade" chance against your dodge target, max 25% at level 9. (Ex: If you are level 3, 4, or 5, you have a 15% evade chance.) If it makes sense that you can dodge, or otherwise use reflexes to avoid an effect from your target (ie. dodging an attack, or disintegrate beam, maybe covering eyes to avoid Glitterdust, but probably not Charm Person), you may treat that effect as though it were an attack with a miss chance equivalent to your evade chance.

This happens after any checks for actual miss chance from concealment/cover/etc are calculated. All these effects can only happen while you can apply your dexterity modifier to your AC (ie. you are not immobilized or stunned, flat-footed, etc).

Special: Use Rule 0 for figuring out what "makes sense" in your game.

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Name: Improved Dodge

Prerequisite: Evade chance of 25% or higher.

Benefit: As Dodge, without the capped evade chance. You may also, once per turn, subject any effect, even those not from your target, to your evade chance, as you dodge out of existence for fractions of a second.

Special: Use Rule 0 for figuring out what "makes sense" in your game.

[flappeercraft]

I would say dexterity score/2 at most. In a semi optimized game without too much trouble someone with dodge could get 40% dodge without trouble and with high optimization easily 80%. So to make it more balanced I would make it score/2 at most and probably cap it at around 20%.

[SangoProduction]

I would say dexterity score/2 at most. In a semi optimized game without too much trouble someone with dodge could get 40% dodge without trouble and with high optimization easily 80%. So to make it more balanced I would make it score/2 at most and probably cap it at around 20%.

Where is someone getting a stat of 80, even disregarding that it's almost always a secondary if not tertiary stat (except for Dex-based Swordsages, I think)?

But yeah, ~14% miss chance at level one, and scales, along with some other bonuses (even if it is against one person) might be a bit much. You're right.

[Tvtyrant]

Why not just "once per turn make a reflex save for half against an attack of your choice whose DC is the opponent's BaB+Relevant Stat Mod" and then stacks with evasion.

[SangoProduction]

Why not just "once per turn make a reflex save for half against an attack of your choice whose DC is the opponent's BaB+Relevant Stat Mod" and then stacks with evasion.

Seems like you would instead say "Once per turn, evade any effect, or attack, negating any harm it may do to you." and cut the roll, since it would probably essentially be an auto win by level 1 with a class with good base saves and decent dex.

Regardless, that has a different effect than is being sought after by the feat. It flexes your reflexes, but isn't basically singling a target who you are devoting your attention towards dodging.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Regardless of power, it strikes me as kind of fiddly, especially with the added stuff about how the miss chance interacts with magic. (Not to mention that I'm not sure how you're dodging a Fort save). "Gain a miss chance against one target" seems easier, cleaner, and still worthwhile. Or "+Dex. (Or half Dex) to AC and saves vs 1 target."

[Cosi]

Before anything else, putting the feat text in a quote is super annoying on these boards because they don't nest quotes.


Your target suffers a chance to miss equal to your Dexterity score (not the mod) divided by 2, to hit you.

Pls no. Rolling a 13% or 7% or 9% miss chance is super annoying. Also does this round? Probably better to make it a scaling table so you're always rolling something that can be done with a d10 or d20.


This is additive with other sources of miss chance (to a max of 65% total).

What happens if I have a 75% miss chance and take Dodge?


Miss chance must be checked if you are targetted by a spell or ability of any type (including magic missile), although this does not protect against area of effect abilities, such as Fireball, nor does it protect other targets.

I don't think having dominate person or finger of death miss is a terrible balance issue, but it seems kind of like a favor fail. How are you "dodging" an attempt to take over your mind? Also, the current wording makes buffs roll off you sometimes, which seems kind of dumb.


Lastly, you gain a Feat bonus equal to your Dexterity modifier to any saves the target causes you to make.

Is there a reason not to just make this a Dodge bonus?

[SangoProduction]

Regardless of power, it strikes me as kind of fiddly, especially with the added stuff about how the miss chance interacts with magic. (Not to mention that I'm not sure how you're dodging a Fort save). "Gain a miss chance against one target" seems easier, cleaner, and still worthwhile. Or "+Dex. (Or half Dex) to AC and saves vs 1 target."

True, that's a good point, and one that I noticed, as I went and shaved down quite a bit of the extraneous explanation in my first pass over. I'll see if I can't simplify it.

As for dodging a fort save: How does being healthy stop you from disintegrating? Or a Will save making you not be tossed in to a time loop. Or how force of will can make you ignore blinding sparkly powder.

All of those (except maybe the time loop, depending on the specific fluff) could be explained by dodging (or covering your eyes) much better than their respective saves.

[SangoProduction]

Before anything else, putting the feat text in a quote is super annoying on these boards because they don't nest quotes.



Pls no. Rolling a 13% or 7% or 9% miss chance is super annoying. Also does this round? Probably better to make it a scaling table so you're always rolling something that can be done with a d10 or d20.



What happens if I have a 75% miss chance and take Dodge?



I don't think having dominate person or finger of death miss is a terrible balance issue, but it seems kind of like a favor fail. How are you "dodging" an attempt to take over your mind? Also, the current wording makes buffs roll off you sometimes, which seems kind of dumb.



Is there a reason not to just make this a Dodge bonus?

1) K. Good point.

2) I'm not sure why it's particularly annoying. Is it because you use a d100? If nothing else, you can use 2d10, if you're playing it physically. Is it just because it's not a nice, rounded off number? (I'm legitimately asking.)

3) Thought the max you could get from another source was 50% for invisibility/total concealment/etc. Well, in that case, I guess you'd have to weigh the other benefits of the feat vs the miss chance loss.

4) OK, I can fix this. I don't know how you can make buffs roll off you, unless you're dodging someone who's trying to cast buffs, which seems...odd.

[Cosi]

2) I'm not sure why it's particularly annoying. Is it because you use a d100? If nothing else, you can use 2d10, if you're playing it physically. Is it just because it's not a nice, rounded off number? (I'm legitimately asking.)

It's just more annoying to resolve for very little benefit. You can do it, and it's not that difficult in the grand scheme, but it's extra work just to be able to have a 4% miss chance instead of a 5% miss chance.


3) Thought the max you could get from another source was 50% for invisibility/total concealment/etc. Well, in that case, I guess you'd have to weigh the other benefits of the feat vs the miss chance loss.

I dunno if there's something else, but I wouldn't be surprised. Why not just cap the bonus from the feat if you're already over 65%? It seems weird to make the feat a penalty for some characters.


4) OK, I can fix this. I don't know how you can make buffs roll off you, unless you're dodging someone who's trying to cast buffs, which seems...odd.

Oh right, I forgot about the target thing. That stops the issue from coming up.

[SangoProduction]

It's just more annoying to resolve for very little benefit. You can do it, and it's not that difficult in the grand scheme, but it's extra work just to be able to have a 4% miss chance instead of a 5% miss chance.



I dunno if there's something else, but I wouldn't be surprised. Why not just cap the bonus from the feat if you're already over 65%? It seems weird to make the feat a penalty for some characters.



Oh right, I forgot about the target thing. That stops the issue from coming up.

1) eh. Fixed. Threw Dexterity away.

2) Also preemptively fixed before you mentioned anything.

3) hehe.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ehh... The simplified formula and all is better, but spell-dodging is still a mess. Effects that are meant to be dodge-able, like Disintegrate, already have an attack roll and, thus, would normally suffer miss chances. Either that or they have Reflex saves, on which case there's already a mechanism for that-- the feat can upgrade your Evasion one step against effects produced by your target, say. Normal Evasion if you don't have it, Improved Evasion if you do, and an auto-success if you have improved evasion already.

[SangoProduction]

Ehh... The simplified formula and all is better, but spell-dodging is still a mess. Effects that are meant to be dodge-able, like Disintegrate, already have an attack roll and, thus, would normally suffer miss chances. Either that or they have Reflex saves, on which case there's already a mechanism for that-- the feat can upgrade your Evasion one step against effects produced by your target, say. Normal Evasion if you don't have it, Improved Evasion if you do, and an auto-success if you have improved evasion already.

Isn't that the point?

[Crake]

Seems like you would instead say "Once per turn, evade any effect, or attack, negating any harm it may do to you." and cut the roll, since it would probably essentially be an auto win by level 1 with a class with good base saves and decent dex.

Regardless, that has a different effect than is being sought after by the feat. It flexes your reflexes, but isn't basically singling a target who you are devoting your attention towards dodging.

If you want to make it more in line with conventional save DCs, instead use 10+ 1/2 the attacker's BAB + the attack's ability modifier

[Grod_The_Giant]

Isn't that the point?
Hmm? I'm saying that you can cover everything that makes sense using existing game rules, rather than having to rely on vague suggestions and rule zero.

[FocusWolf413]

Honestly, instead of reinventing the wheel to turn it into the objectively most powerful wheel in the world, you should make dodge apply to all targets and not just one, make it scale with BAB (+1 per every 4 or 5), and mix it with mobility. Still not as strong as Power Attack or any of the charging feats. Miles behind feats like obtain familiar.