Beyond Wererats: What are some were-creatures that you'd peg as Lawful Evil?

[Coidzor]

In particular, I'm brainstorming ideas about what kind of lycanthropes could be aligned with the Church of Asmodeus for a Way of the Wicked game.

After wererats, the first thing that occurs to me is weregoats, due to the Western associations between goats and devils and cloven hooves and all that jazz.

After that, I'm not really brainstorming up anything beyond maybe using Pigs instead of Boars as a basis for some.

[DrMotives]

Pigs remind me of the "devil swine" were pigs from older editions. Also, a Scottish folklore creature called the "yerd-swine" that may have been something like a werebeast, may have been a ghoul. They dug up graveyards to eat the dead.
Lawful evil choices could be a lot of entamanothropes, like a werespider or werewasp would make sense. On strict lycanthrope template, I'd suggest a weredog (black dog), werecrow, or a wereviper.

[J-H]

Werewolves (despite the CE label), or any other creature that hunts in packs or travels in herds.

[Keltest]

Some types of were-birds perhaps, like were-crows/ravens.

Were-lions maybe?

[Grim Portent]

This will sound silly on the face of it, but were-chickens.

To elaborate, chickens in general, and roosters in particular, have associations with cults and back magic in pop-culture, a real world history of being bred for fighting and also feature in a number of mythical stories. I understand that in some cultures chickens have also been considered a form of witch's familiar. Lastly they are of course a communal animal by nature, with a very strict heirarchy that is subject to change when members become weakened by illness or injury, which seems suitable for LE.

A coven of were-chickens, both roosters and hens, led by a were-rooster with feathers and comb as black as ash and beady black eyes that glimmer with cruel contempt and the right to strike foul pacts on the behalf of the lower realms could fit your needs for example.

[Cosi]

Snakes, ferrets, bats, most big cats, squid. If you allow were-vermin, spiders, scorpions, bees, and wasps all seem reasonable.

[Vizzerdrix]

Were dolphins. Or just dolphins in general. Also anything bear, including were bears should be lawful evil.

[Inevitability]

Were dolphins. Or just dolphins in general.

Which of the various atrocities committed by dolphins ping as LE? I'm having trouble thinking of any.

[zergling.exe]

Which of the various atrocities committed by dolphins ping as LE? I'm having trouble thinking of any.

Playing games that involve the murder of other aquatic creatures?

[Inevitability]

Playing games that involve the murder of other aquatic creatures?

Definitely Evil, but not Lawful in any way I see. Hell, I'd put it closer to Chaotic.

[Vizzerdrix]

Which of the various atrocities committed by dolphins ping as LE? I'm having trouble thinking of any.

Organized interspecies rape gangs and well coordinated games of infant murderball.

[Fizban]

Perhaps a bull or an ox? Problem is lycanthropy doesn't work with herbivores, needs to be at least omnivore. And that the whole assigned alignment thing is bogus, "perception" of the animal indeed, since when have people considered tigers less menacing than wolves or bears as steadfast nice guys? Were-rats are already down as chaotic evil (unless pf changed it and you're referring to that) though, so presumably you're changing things.

There's were-dire-bat for not-so-fiendish bat wings.

[Starbuck_II]

Playing games that involve the murder of other aquatic creatures?

No, those are an evil subrace of dolphin called the Dolphinos, they look just like them but are entirely evil since birthed.

[Vizzerdrix]

No, those are an evil subrace of dolphin called the Dolphinos, they look just like them but are entirely evil since birthed.

Lies and deception from a dolphin sympathizer! We see through your deception sir!

[DrMotives]

I was shown a video of 2 orca (which are just really big dolphins) playing catch with a live penguin. They'd throw the penguin with their mouth, the other one would try to bat it with the tail... When they'd miss, you could see the penguin trying to swim away, while the nearest orca just got it and flung it through the air at the other one. Seemed pretty evil to me.

Also, I haven't been able to find that video since. It was hilarious. Like the kind of thing David Attenborough would team up with Red Fel to produce.

[Inevitability]

Organized interspecies rape gangs and well coordinated games of infant murderball.

I'm not sure I agree cooperation and coordination make actions automatically lawful. Dolphins still seem NE at best.

[Starbuck_II]

Lies and deception from a dolphin sympathizer! We see through your deception sir!

Takes one to know one, Dolphino infiltrator. We are tired of the slurs and propaganda to our kind. Eheh eheheh eh. (dolphin sounds)

[CharonsHelper]

Werelawyers

[Starbuck_II]

Werelawyers

Wait, so they become lawyers during the full moon?

[stack]

Wait, so they become lawyers during the full moon?

Too hard to squeeze in the billable hours.

[Troacctid]

Snakes. Hive insects like ants, bees, and termites. And of course penguins.

[Coidzor]

Perhaps a bull or an ox? Problem is lycanthropy doesn't work with herbivores, needs to be at least omnivore. And that the whole assigned alignment thing is bogus, "perception" of the animal indeed, since when have people considered tigers less menacing than wolves or bears as steadfast nice guys? Were-rats are already down as chaotic evil (unless pf changed it and you're referring to that) though, so presumably you're changing things.

There's were-dire-bat for not-so-fiendish bat wings.

Wererats are LE in both PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/wererat/) and 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm).

I'm not sure where the idea that they're CE comes from, exactly. Possibly the association with thieves guilds, possibly people's perceptions of villainous ratters. I recall operating under it myself for a bit, no real idea why.

Liking the idea of were-dire-bats. :smallamused:


This will sound silly on the face of it, but were-chickens.

To elaborate, chickens in general, and roosters in particular, have associations with cults and back magic in pop-culture, a real world history of being bred for fighting and also feature in a number of mythical stories. I understand that in some cultures chickens have also been considered a form of witch's familiar. Lastly they are of course a communal animal by nature, with a very strict heirarchy that is subject to change when members become weakened by illness or injury, which seems suitable for LE.

A coven of were-chickens, both roosters and hens, led by a were-rooster with feathers and comb as black as ash and beady black eyes that glimmer with cruel contempt and the right to strike foul pacts on the behalf of the lower realms could fit your needs for example.

I have to make were-chickens now. But to use Kobolds, Halflings, Gnomes, or some other form of smallfolk?


Snakes, ferrets, bats, most big cats, squid. If you allow were-vermin, spiders, scorpions, bees, and wasps all seem reasonable.

Ferrets and squid, eh? What's your reasoning there?

All I really know about ferrets is that they like to dance when they get excited.

[Red Fel]

If you allow were-vermin, spiders, scorpions, bees, and wasps all seem reasonable.


Hive insects like ants, bees, and termites.

Climbing aboard the hive vermin train. Specifically, were-giant hornets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet). The base animal is aggressive and intensely predatory; they hunt medium-to-large insects, and will eat larva. Yes, they eat babies. They're also violent against larger animals, and their sting can cause anaphylactic shock, cardiac arrest, or even multiple organ failure. And oh, they will swarm.

They are loyal, hard-working, and vicious. Have their Queen join with the Church of Big A, and the rest will step in line.

If they want you, they will take you and make you one of their own. If they don't, they will absolutely murder you, in force. They are numerous, violent, and disposable - the perfect footsoldiers.

[Cosi]

I'm not sure where the idea that they're CE comes from, exactly. Possibly the association with thieves guilds, possibly people's perceptions of villainous ratters. I recall operating under it myself for a bit, no real idea why.

Personally, I think it's because there's not really a good distinction between "lawful evil" and "chaotic evil" (or "Law" and "Chaos" in the broader sense). Were-Rats might be lawful by RAW, but the whole "spreading disease and consuming people's food" seems pretty chaotic to me. I think you can probably make arguments for any animal in this thread to go either direction.


Ferrets and squid, eh? What's your reasoning there?

Ferrerts are basically weasels. Kobols ride giant weasels, and are Lawful Evil. Clearly, Were-Ferrets are resultantly Lawful Evil.

Squid are supposed to be clever, which is nominally "lawful". Also, they look kind of like Reapers, who are clearly Lawful. Honestly, you could argue either way. It's not a terribly compelling distinction in my mind.

[Deophaun]

Werelawyers
Ran into a den of those once. Next thing we knew, we got slapped with a restraining order, all our magic items were seized to pay for "emotional trauma," and the Druid lost custody of her animal companion. Also, the barbarian had his name legally changed to Mary.

Don't screw with the werelawyers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The first thing that comes to mind is (Dire) Weasels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm), a solid example being the Toon Patrol (http://disneyvillains.wikia.com/wiki/Toon_Patrol).

Snakes of various types would be fitting. A Were-Legendary Snake (MM2) would make a particularly strong bruiser, or werecreatures based on vipers would be more sneaky and manipulative.

[Zaq]

Animals aren't really supposed to fit alignments, so any attempt to say that a werecreature "should" fit a specific alignment is going to be arbitrary at best. I think you should approach it from another angle. What kinds of werecreatures would be interesting to fill the story role that you have in mind? I don't feel like there's anything that's going to be objectively right or wrong here, and if you put enough story trappings around it, I think whatever you come up with will make as much sense as anything else.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Vultures. Don't ask me why, but I imagine were-vultures would be highly organized, legalistic and punctilious.

[Gildedragon]

werechimps
Werehyenas
Werespiders
Werewombats (they gotta be lawful, they poop out d6s)

[Grim Portent]

I have to make were-chickens now. But to use Kobolds, Halflings, Gnomes, or some other form of smallfolk?

Personally I'd bend the rules and make them medium sized rather than small, because a 7 foot rooster-man with black feathers, demonic powers and a hunger for flesh would be pretty damn terrifying in ways one that's only 4 feet wouldn't, but small ones would be amusing for a more silly moment, even though they'd still be mechanically scary.

For medium humanoids I'd just use humans, they always work and fit an Asmodeus cult better than most do.

For small, I'd probably use halflings, and play up the pop-culture voodoo/satanism connotations of chickens to make them seem a bit less... silly.

[Gildedragon]

Personally I'd bend the rules and make them medium sized rather than small, because a 7 foot rooster-man with black feathers, demonic powers and a hunger for flesh would be pretty damn terrifying in ways one that's only 4 feet wouldn't, but small ones would be amusing for a more silly moment, even though they'd still be mechanically scary.

For medium humanoids I'd just use humans, they always work and fit an Asmodeus cult better than most do.

For small, I'd probably use halflings, and play up the pop-culture voodoo/satanism connotations of chickens to make them seem a bit less... silly.

For starters not calling them chickens but "Cockerels" or "Chanteclers"
Focus on their spurs

[Coidzor]

For starters not calling them chickens but "Cockerels" or "Chanteclers"
Focus on their spurs

Hmm. I'm thinking of making a variant Dire Chicken based off of Axebeaks with either a Talons attack or two Claws. Maybe with something like a 30' Poor Fly Speed. Possibly Medium, possibly Large in size.

[Grim Portent]

Hmm. I'm thinking of making a variant Dire Chicken based off of Axebeaks with either a Talons attack or two Claws. Maybe with something like a 30' Poor Fly Speed. Possibly Medium, possibly Large in size.

I'd go with one of the contingent attacks like the big cats often have.

Two talon attacks, and if they hit they each allow an automatic hit with a second natural weapon one size larger, name doesn't really matter, rake or spurs or claws. The first pair are the actual claws, the second is the spurs.

I'd probably also avoid a fly speed in favour of a jump bonus. I keep chickens and they can't fly, but they can jump very well.

[ATHATH]

Werelawyers
Ran into a den of those once. Next thing we knew, we got slapped with a restraining order, all our magic items were seized to pay for "emotional trauma," and the Druid lost custody of her animal companion. Also, the barbarian had his name legally changed to Mary.

Don't screw with the werelawyers.
Someone should sig this.

[Coidzor]

I'd go with one of the contingent attacks like the big cats often have.

Two talon attacks, and if they hit they each allow an automatic hit with a second natural weapon one size larger, name doesn't really matter, rake or spurs or claws. The first pair are the actual claws, the second is the spurs.

I'd probably also avoid a fly speed in favour of a jump bonus. I keep chickens and they can't fly, but they can jump very well.

Yep, definitely going to need to brew up El Pollo Del Diablo. El Gallo Del Diablo?

[atemu1234]

Personally I'd bend the rules and make them medium sized rather than small, because a 7 foot rooster-man with black feathers, demonic powers and a hunger for flesh would be pretty damn terrifying in ways one that's only 4 feet wouldn't, but small ones would be amusing for a more silly moment, even though they'd still be mechanically scary.

For medium humanoids I'd just use humans, they always work and fit an Asmodeus cult better than most do.

For small, I'd probably use halflings, and play up the pop-culture voodoo/satanism connotations of chickens to make them seem a bit less... silly.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/24/04/48/240448f1185b7e48419386aaf2cf4430.jpg
Chickens can come in medium size, too. Brahma Chicken, for those wondering. (I'm also being facetious, they typically don't grow larger than tops three feet tall and about fifteen pounds)

[Fizban]

Wererats are LE in both PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/wererat/) and 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm).
*Checks, checks* Bwahahahaha.

The SRD has lawful evil on the statblock line, but chaotic evil on the table of alignments towards the bottom. Same in the actual Monster Manual.

[Keltest]

*Checks, checks* Bwahahahaha.

The SRD has lawful evil on the statblock line, but chaotic evil on the table of alignments towards the bottom. Same in the actual Monster Manual.

Maybe on an individual level theyre lawful, and as a group theyre chaotic? Theyre loyal to whatever it is you call a swarm of rats, and that swarm just gets everywhere and chews the crap out of your furniture.

[Honest Tiefling]

Werewolves (despite the CE label), or any other creature that hunts in packs or travels in herds.

Much agreed with this.


Were dolphins. Or just dolphins in general. Also anything bear, including were bears should be lawful evil.

I feel like bears should be chaotic evil, because they tend to be very solitary and do whatever they want. Bears don't care if they should be asleep or if it's not even food.