Gunslinger STILL doesn't understand the Cthulhu mythos

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay, so you guys recall the story a while back about the gunslinger in my party who decided to make it his mission to completely obliterate the entire Lovecraft Pantheon from existence? He's been pursuing it every session since he made that declaration back in December. The entire campaign he has been wandering different worlds, raising armies, manipulating officials, and doing absolutely everything he can to destroy eldritch abominations with extreme prejudice. It started off okay, with him and the rest of the party rooting out Deep One settlements, Cthulhu cults, or the occasional Flying Polyp city and employing all their resources to neutralize whatever was in there. This has led to at least one occasion of the players coming across and being forced to flee something out of their CR range, but gradually the player has been growing more ambitious, eventually deciding that he was going to build a weapon strong enough to erase Cthulhu from existence.

And last session, this plan really, reeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllly backfired.

He ended up researching a bunch of qlippoth-related technology pertaining to the destruction of god-level entities, and ended up combing his entire homeworld for anyone who had knowledge enough of eldritch lore to actaully mount an offensive on a Great Old One. The most versed person he located was actually Nyarlathotep in disguise, and the crawling chaos saw this as an opportunity not only to get rid of an age-old enemy, but also to royally **** over a planet in a way it has never been ****ed over before. The weapon was deployed from orbit and the entire city of Ry'leh was obliterated from all facets of existence, but the same weapon was then used to open a portal to Nyarlathotep's realm directly over the planet, sending millions of eldritch horrors of unspeakable power vomiting forth across the entire world. Nations are descending into madness, civilizations are collapsing, and the fabric of reality itself is being shredded like a piece of lettuce in a cosmic blender.

And just earlier today, the player talked to me about his plans for when this conflict ends and things return to normal.

Despite everything that has been thrown his way, it still hasn't sunk in to the Gunslinger that he's gone way too far into a conflict he has absolutely no chance of winning. He has somehow convinced himself that Nyarlathotep not only has stats which I am hiding from the group, but that a 12th-level party is capable of killing him with the right help (he expects some other powerful creatures from his world to help him, as if you could beat an Elder God by reducing him to 0 hit points even with a half-dozen CR 20+ creatures). He keeps saying how he's looking forward to things returning to normal, completely oblivious to the fact that things will never, ever return to normal because of how profoundly he has screwed over his homeworld.

What the heck do I do here? How on Earth can I make it clear that Nyarlathotep and the Dark Tapestry in general are more than just a bunch of jacked-up dungeon monsters? Several of the other party members get it (especially because the magus's homeworld was ruined by Nyarlathotep in a similar manner), but the sheer amount of brazen courage and ignorance being displayed by the Gunslinger is getting hard to deal with.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

May I ask what your favorite H.P. Lovecraft story is?

[Peat]

You make it clear by saying "You do realise that as far as I'm concerned the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are literally invincible and your character has zero way of beating them. Not at 12th, not at 20th, not at 20th+10th Epic, not with every god statted helping, not ever".

Is it such a big deal though? Your group seem to be having some great moments and with that level of mad ambition, seem likely to have many more. Okay there's quite possibly a major upset coming when the player twigs he was throwing everything into an impossible goal and you never explicitly told him; I have no idea how much that would bother the player.

If you want to try and say it IC so he can work it out himself, let him approach all the people he wants to help him fight the Great Old Ones and have them all laugh in his face at the foolishness of it. I give you very short odds though that the player will just assume they're being cowardly/mind controlled and get on truckin' though. If you want to be clear, say it without ambiguity, don't try and feed hints through the game.

[Malroth]

Have some Mad god inform him of the one being capable of Destroying Nyarlothep, the Eternally Sleeping Azozoth. The Gunslinger of course will attempt to Awake it and in so doing end all existence.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Have some Mad god inform him of the one being capable of Destroying Nyarlothep, the Eternally Sleeping Azozoth. The Gunslinger of course will attempt to Awake it and in so doing end all existence.

Since Gunslingers are all about dealing loads of damage at range, and instantly ending everything everywhere is probably the most damage one could possibly do, it could be argued that by waking Azozoth OP's gunslinger will briefly reach Class Nirvana. So that's something of a bright side.

[Sayt]

Well, first off, explain to him in no uncertain terms that Outer Gods are considered to be full deific beings, which Pathfinder specifically doesn't stat up. Talk to him out of character and try to calibrate his expectations.

Great Old Ones are considered demi-gods and some (Chtulhu, Hastur, Bokrug, Ithqua, Mordiggan, Tsathoggua, Atlach-Nacha and Ghatanothoa, so far, and B6 is going to have at least Tawil at'Umr)

All of these great and terrible CR 25+ monsters has a variant of the Immortal (Ex) ability, that prevents them from dying permanently, but at least renders your own world safe, for now.

They also have an Unspeakable Presence, which a 12th level character is going to walk into, probably not roll a 20 and then just... be ****ed.

That being said, the overconfident character dashing in over their head can be an interesting character, if the player knows that is what is happening.

Practically? Give them a survivable encounter with something incredibly over their head, such as a Star Spawn of Cthulhu. Have it gate in an encounter with some demons that is CR +2/3, perhaps a pair of Glaabrezu, or a Seraptis, you know how to challenge your group better than I. Show them how deep the pool is, preferably without drowning them, that is my advice.

[icefractal]

The most versed person he located was actually Nyarlathotep in disguise, and the crawling chaos saw this as an opportunity not only to get rid of an age-old enemy, but also to royally **** over a planet in a way it has never been ****ed over before.

...

And just earlier today, the player talked to me about his plans for when this conflict ends and things return to normal.

Despite everything that has been thrown his way, it still hasn't sunk in to the Gunslinger that he's gone way too far into a conflict he has absolutely no chance of winning.

...

He keeps saying how he's looking forward to things returning to normal, completely oblivious to the fact that things will never, ever return to normal because of how profoundly he has screwed over his homeworld.So, it sounds like you run campaigns in a pretty "let things fall where they may" style. That's fine, but does the player in question know that?

Because from what he's saying, it might not be that he's completely not getting it, it might be because he's trying to indicate - "No, I don't want to have ****ed things up beyond any hope of repair, what kind of ****ty ending is that? That can't be what you're planning here, can it?"

And from his PoV, the "person you talked to was evil in disguise, you were ****ed from the moment you made that decision" could seem pretty unfair. And again, I'm not saying it was wrong to have that kind of deception there, just that if the player is used to a different style then their own metagame sense of how things work (don't scrutinize every NPC, it wastes time, the GM didn't put them in to be avoided) may have worked against them.

And as for the mythos gods being beyond everything and obviously foolish to mess with ... eh, if you want to run it that way that's fine. But I don't think that's the only way it could be. In a setting like Pathfinder, "and then I punched the elder gods in the face" doesn't seem a priori ridiculous. Although yeah, doing it at 12th level is ... a lot of confidence. :smalltongue:

So, TL;DR - the player may be significantly dissatisfied with this outcome on an OOC level, take that into account with how you handle it. Laughing at them with "Lol, didn't you know mythos stuff is unbeatable, noob?" is probably not a good way to go. Of course I could be wrong, they might not mind.

[Inevitability]

Great Old Ones may not be permanently killable, but it is most definitely possible to fight, significantly hinder, and even 'defeat' them, in a sense. A certain story about Cthulhu and a boat comes to mind.

That said: you and your player seem to have different ideas about what the Mythos should represent. Have you tried telling him your view?

[Gildedragon]

Offer him the means to evacuate his world. Incantations amd artifacts that claim they can "seal the rift"
Rift isn't sealed, just all living beings are shunted over to the next livable, empty, world.
The sun maybe looks off, buildings are gone, Magic is a bit wonky... Maybe divine connection is "staticky" And smiling amused is nyarlathotep offering the PC his digits being all "this was fun. Call me"
New world with no set gods, a slightly off magic planar trait...
PCs now quest to become the protectors of this new world

[Vizzerdrix]

It sound to me like you have to step up your great old one game.

Run a session where he gets to wrap up all the loose ends. At the end, inform the group that the gunslinger has been sitting in a corner jabbering to himself and rocking back and fourth for days and that the session was all in his head. Then have something eat him from the inside out. Without any ranch.

[Metahuman1]

Im with icefractal and Inevitability on this one.


Frankly, I know a little about the mythos. I'm not an expert as past a certain point I loose interest. That said, there are two ways to run the mythos in my experience. Lovecraft, and Howard. Lovecraft seems to be what you want. If it's even mentioned by H.P. Lovecraft or in most/any of the spinoff stuff, it's far and away forever beyond so much as touching let alone defeating no matter what, ever, period, no not even then.

Howard, is that there great and terrible monsters, so of course your going to shank them in the face to death, bath in there blood, and then go have ballads of your deed sung while you feast and joke and drink and all but swim in attractive scantily clad ladies/men as is your/your characters preference.


Even if were not allowing for that, I think the two posters I cited have the right of it. Frankly, if you REALLY wanted to run it in the "there for ever and ever invincible and even thinking of doing anything other then curling up in the fetal position and crying yourself to death is only going to make things worse." path with them, that needed to be said. Out of character. Probably a few times. Before. During. And after character creation, and one or two times before/during/and/or after the first session. Cause if it was me as the player, I'd be thinking your being a troll killer DM and write you off at best, or worse, I'd assume the whole focus of the game is that no matter what you can't end it well, things only get worse and all you do will only make things more horrible. And depending on my level of experience at the time, I might start associating this with the whole system, or the whole medium, and not just this one specific campaign or DM.

If that's not what happened, I hate to say this, but as the DM I'm kind of inclined to think your partially responsible for not blatantly clearly communicating your wants/expectations/rules to the party. Particularly if this is a first time or very inexperienced player running your gunslinger.




Toward the end of fixing the mess now that it's made. Here's what I'd suggest. First, remember that the Great Old One's and Elder Gods are not nearly as invincible as you have been making them up to be in Lovecrafts own Canon. Powerful by the standards of humans 100+ years ago, sure, but not invincible.

Next, recall another thing H.P. Lovecraft Invented, and the invention of another fantastically powerful pantheon of beings from another mythos by another more modern author.

Remember that H.P. Lovecraft invented a dream realm, were reality does not work as it does here. Stage the party to go there for a time seeking an answer. And have them encounter The Endless. Of the Sandman Mythos, made famous by Neil Gaiman.

Destiny. Death. Dream. Destruction. The Twins Desire and Despair. And Delirium, whom depending on the exact point in the timeline was once, and may in this game be, not Delirium, but instead, Delight. \

Have them encounter the Endless, and have the endless decide that Narolethotypes Machinations in this particularly instance have gone to far into meddling with them and there own paths. Have them decide to intercede and foil his scheme, perhaps in a way that undoes or partially undoes the defeat of Cthuluh in exchange for retroactively fixing the damage. (Yes I know the names are spelled wrong I'm on a phone just go with it.)

Have them explain IC, and explain OOC right before hand, that what he wants is and never was obtainable. Hell, apologize for completely failing to make that properly clear sooner. And then, then offer him a more modest goal. He can't beat them, but he can make sure that they won't be interested in this particular world for quite a long time to come. While your at it, look into some other more minor Lovecraftian beings that are not deity level but are more then just Deepone's and cultists. The Color Out Of Space and The Great Race Of Yith, comes to mind as a pair of good examples. Give him those to hunt and kill for the games duration. Maybe with a warning from The Endless that if he pulls a stunt like that again there is no guarantee they will do things that happen to bail him out next time, and telling him directly in a matter of fact manner that they only got bailed out this time as a by product, not a design goal. There not THAT important ultimately.

[Coidzor]

Trying to treat Pathfinder like a game of Call of Cthulhu really isn't the best of ideas. (And one that the Paizo Devs probably need a good smacking with a trout for encouraging)

It's an outright bad idea if you aren't an effective communicator and haven't already gotten all of the players on board, out of character, before sitting down to make characters, let alone play the game.

Stop being passive-aggressive and talk to your player. Maybe you can work out a compromise. Maybe you need to play a different game. Maybe you need to part ways as player and GM.

Whatever the appropriate course of action, you're not going to find it by trying to avoid talking to him directly.

[Metahuman1]

Trying to treat Pathfinder like a game of Call of Cthulhu really isn't the best of ideas. (And one that the Paizo Devs probably need a good smacking with a trout for encouraging)

It's an outright bad idea if you aren't an effective communicator and haven't already gotten all of the players on board, out of character, before sitting down to make characters, let alone play the game.

Stop being passive-aggressive and talk to your player. Maybe you can work out a compromise. Maybe you need to play a different game. Maybe you need to part ways as player and GM.

Whatever the appropriate course of action, you're not going to find it by trying to avoid talking to him directly.

This is a solid point.

[the_david]

Trying to treat Pathfinder like a game of Call of Cthulhu really isn't the best of ideas. (And one that the Paizo Devs probably need a good smacking with a trout for encouraging)

Maybe it would be a good idea to explain why this is not the best of ideas.

Suppose you'd want to build an archer who'd be able to compete at the olympic level. What do you think you'd need? It turns out, the AC or DC to hit the target wouldn't be that high. A 6th level ranger would be able to do it.
The long jump then. What does it take to jump 30 ft. and break the world record? DC 30 acrobatics check? Say you take 6 levels in monk, +8 from speed, +4 from the run feat, +6 from ranks, +3 from class skill, +4 dexterity. That's a +25 already, the only thing you have to do now is roll a 5 or higher. You didn't even need to take the Skill Focus (Acrobatics) or Fleet!
100 meter dash in less than 10 seconds? Monk 6 + Run feat + Fleet feat x 3 = 325 ft. per round. 100 meters is 328 ft. and a little bit. You'd make it in less than 7 seconds.

All of this without magic. Guess what, the gunslinger is level 12. He's twice the man (or woman) any olympic athlete would be. The Elder Gods are invincible to us, but not nessecarily to a Pathfinder character.

Edit: What am I saying? A first level barbarian with the Run feat could run the 100 m dash in 9.84 seconds...

[Raxxius]

So what are the gods of the realms doing while all their worshipers are being devoured?

Just a question, but it seems weird with a world ending event the deities are sitting around doing nothing even though their own existence is being threatened.

Like every single divine being with it's super intelligence and divine might just 'oopised' and missed this?

[noob]

All of these great and terrible CR 25+ monsters has a variant of the Immortal (Ex) ability, that prevents them from dying permanently, but at least renders your own world safe, for now.
You can sometimes by raw bypass it with a bunch of spells(like the silly spell called animate dead for some elder ancients)
Also you can craft an army of trompe l'oeuil clockwork apocalypse swarm swarm chtulus who splits in more trompe l'oeuil clockwork chtulus when hit(when you are a player you can create creatures much worse than real elder ancients).

[Elysiume]

Maybe it would be a good idea to explain why this is not the best of ideas.

Suppose you'd want to build an archer who'd be able to compete at the olympic level. What do you think you'd need? It turns out, the AC or DC to hit the target wouldn't be that high. A 6th level ranger would be able to do it.
The long jump then. What does it take to jump 30 ft. and break the world record? DC 30 acrobatics check? Say you take 6 levels in monk, +8 from speed, +4 from the run feat, +6 from ranks, +3 from class skill, +4 dexterity. That's a +25 already, the only thing you have to do now is roll a 5 or higher. You didn't even need to take the Skill Focus (Acrobatics) or Fleet!
100 meter dash in less than 10 seconds? Monk 6 + Run feat + Fleet feat x 3 = 325 ft. per round. 100 meters is 328 ft. and a little bit. You'd make it in less than 7 seconds.

All of this without magic. Guess what, the gunslinger is level 12. He's twice the man (or woman) any olympic athlete would be. The Elder Gods are invincible to us, but not nessecarily to a Pathfinder character.Cthulhu is statted out, and he instantly kills anything that comes within 300' if they fail a DC 40 will save. That's a bit of a high bar for a level 12 gunslinger. Great Old Ones aren't just strong, they're CR 27+ (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary4/greatOldOne.html#great-old-one-cthulhu). Someone being twice as strong as an Olympic athlete is still a far cry from being able to go toe-to-toe with a demigod. And that's not even addressing the fact that Great Old Ones are a significant step below the Outer Gods in power.

[the_david]

So what are the gods of the realms doing while all their worshipers are being devoured?

Just a question, but it seems weird with a world ending event the deities are sitting around doing nothing even though their own existence is being threatened.

Like every single divine being with it's super intelligence and divine might just 'oopised' and missed this?When a mortal dies its soul travels to its deity in the outer planes and becomes a petitioner. The petitioner can advance to become a powerful outsider in the service of its deity. I think the gods win when billions of souls are knocking on their doors to become soldiers in an army of outsiders.

Besides, there are other worlds in the material plane. It's not like it's the end the universe.

[the_david]

Cthulhu is statted out, and he instantly kills anything that comes within 300' if they fail a DC 40 will save. That's a bit of a high bar for a level 12 gunslinger. Great Old Ones aren't just strong, they're CR 27+ (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary4/greatOldOne.html#great-old-one-cthulhu). Someone being twice as strong as an Olympic athlete is still a far cry from being able to go toe-to-toe with a demigod. And that's not even addressing the fact that Great Old Ones are a significant step below the Outer Gods in power.You're right. I'd suppose I could argue that Paizo got the stats wrong, but if these stats are being used than a 12th level Gunslinger would be out of his league.

[Elysiume]

You're right. I'd suppose I could argue that Paizo got the stats wrong, but if these stats are being used than a 12th level Gunslinger would be out of his league.Yeah, it comes down to personal preference whether it's good or bad, but Paizo made demigod-level characters incredibly strong, and left gods unstatted to attest to their strength.

[Metahuman1]

Didn't the OP make a big deal that nothing at all not even gods can defeat the great old ones and outer gods and so on though?


High bar nothing, that's just giving them fiat plot invincibility.

[noob]

Well if the players reach high level enough they can craft creatures 32Z45E3^iSpiked gauntlet times stronger than what is maximally perceivable by imagination
The rules of pathfinder are silly beyond measure like you can as a player make a creature that can split in two of itself by hitting itself then his copy split and so on and then there is an infinity of it in one turn and they all have level 20 spellcasting so they just have to teleport to all the positions they want and cast their spells and for example make an entire plane have so much good in it that it merge with heavens or really anything you can imagine and far beyond.
That creature can be crafted by a level 20 wizard in 4 days for a cost of 4000 gp.
Now can you tell me why cultists would try to summon creatures that are less threatening to the material plane if it takes more preparation?
So summoning the ultimate eldritch being that destroys the universe should take less than 4 days and cost less than 4000 gp else it is less a threat to the universe than a level 20 wizard who like crafting constructs(since that wizard can do that from the safety of his mordenkainen manor or his personal plane).
Honestly there is not a real difference in power level of different creatures above level 20: they are all way too far beyond the widest imaginations.
In the Cthulhu mythos all the elder ancients do way less than what level 20 wizards. Maybe they can do everything a level 20 wizard can do but they do not do that and it is never hinted they can go so far beyond imagination it is only hinted that they do not care and are way beyond mortals but compared to pathfinder wizards you can hardly know since they are infinitely far beyond imagination.

[Jay R]

This has the makings of a great tragic story. Let him try it, knowing he will eventually die. It's all right for a player to deliberately choose an impossible goal, and die in the attempt.

The only problem is that some people don't want this to be a game you can lose.

So tell him, clearly and unambiguously, that his character can and eventually will die trying to fight powers beyond his imagining.

Then play it out.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, I see a path to do precisely what the gunslinger wants.

If there is any force capable of turning back this giant wave of pure chaos, it is the forces of Mechanus. You mention Gunslinger and Qlippoths, so I assume this is Pathfinder.

Here's what he needs to do:

1: Prostrate himself to the deities of Mechanus admitting he did wrong and be willing to subject himself to judgement.
2: Accept their judgement with an honest desire to make things right.
3: Enlist the aid of the Resolute.
4: Call on the Aeons. This cannot be good for their purpises.
5: Get some angelic and devil assistance if possible.
Get an alliance of lawful gods together. He can't fight Nyarly, but other gods most certainly can.

[Florian]

You mean the same gods that didn't´t manage to take down Rovagug, even while banding together, or have a hard time taking down a mythic level character? Yes, gods in PF are nearly indestructible, but also don´t manage to kill each other.

But I third simply letting him go on with his personal quest, until he finally realizes that the elder mythos will always win in the end. Praise Groetus.

[Calthropstu]

You mean the same gods that didn't´t manage to take down Rovagug, even while banding together, or have a hard time taking down a mythic level character? Yes, gods in PF are nearly indestructible, but also don´t manage to kill each other.

But I third simply letting him go on with his personal quest, until he finally realizes that the elder mythos will always win in the end. Praise Groetus.

Nyarl IS a god... At the worst, they could fight him to a standstill. Meanwhile, the resolute army, combined with Angels, Aeons and Devils, would quickly push the eldritch horrors back. Faced with irreperable damage to his immortal position, Nyarl would have to withdraw from the field, taking his armies with him.

Of course, Asmodeous would demand a beachhead on the planet in question for his assistance, and so would some other gods.

[Psyren]

This has the makings of a great tragic story. Let him try it, knowing he will eventually die. It's all right for a player to deliberately choose an impossible goal, and die in the attempt.

The only problem is that some people don't want this to be a game you can lose.

So tell him, clearly and unambiguously, that his character can and eventually will die trying to fight powers beyond his imagining.

Then play it out.

"Dying" and "losing" are two different things. If I were to do this, I would indeed have the Gunslinger die in the attempt (or go insane etc.), but that doesn't mean he can't actually save the day in some way. Remember there are ways (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/elder-sign/) to put mere mortals in a position where they can, if not destroy a Lovecraftian entity, at least save the world from one, and shooting cultists and monsters is always fun.

[Calthropstu]

"Dying" and "losing" are two different things. If I were to do this, I would indeed have the Gunslinger die in the attempt (or go insane etc.), but that doesn't mean he can't actually save the day in some way. Remember there are ways (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/elder-sign/) to put mere mortals in a position where they can, if not destroy a Lovecraftian entity, at least save the world from one, and shooting cultists and monsters is always fun.

Goes back to my suggestion.
He IS directly responsible for the situation. The gods of law giving him an artifact to close the rift and send most of horrors back to their plane in a world wide banishment spell... requiring him to fuel the artifact with his own soul destroying it forever? I could see that being a thing.

[Raxxius]

Of course the Gods could send the Gunslinger back in time to kill himself and thus prevent the event from ever happening.

Para-Para-Paradox

[Bronk]

Okay, so you guys recall the story a while back about the gunslinger in my party who decided to make it his mission to completely obliterate the entire Lovecraft Pantheon from existence? He's been pursuing it every session since he made that declaration back in December. The entire campaign he has been wandering different worlds, raising armies, manipulating officials, and doing absolutely everything he can to destroy eldritch abominations with extreme prejudice. It started off okay, with him and the rest of the party rooting out Deep One settlements, Cthulhu cults, or the occasional Flying Polyp city and employing all their resources to neutralize whatever was in there. This has led to at least one occasion of the players coming across and being forced to flee something out of their CR range, but gradually the player has been growing more ambitious, eventually deciding that he was going to build a weapon strong enough to erase Cthulhu from existence.

******

What the heck do I do here?

Okay, you have a number of problems here, but I think it's going to be okay. You and the other posters are right in that your game hasn't had much of a Lovecraftian feel to it, but at the same time, that isn't really the Gunslinger's fault, because that's how you've run the game for him. Now, at the same time, you aren't having fun either, because you've since gotten into the mythos. You haven't mentioned any other players, so since it sounds like a pretty fun game, they must at least be going along with the current story line and be fine with it.

My suggestion is to treat this new, post apocalypse part of your game as a 'Part Two of Three'.

Have a few big set pieces where the Gunslinger and the other players see the new horror of the world, and are hounded by these forces until they’re forced to escape. They’ll find themselves with a small group of survivors, some of whom are knowledgeable or NPCs that are normally very powerful, like avatars of the gods. Now that the eldritch horrors have taken over, their power is waning, but is enough to reveal the truth to the players, and perhaps lend a hand in getting them started on the next step.

So yes, now is the time to reveal to the Gunslinger (and by extension, any other players) that they've been duped, and in a big way. In fact, all the times they were victorious in the past - and they did win, no reason to have bad feelings at the table by reversing their successes - served the additional purposes of making them lower their guard and trick them into delving further and further into the Lovecraftian world, manipulated into being ever more overt patsies of Nyarlathotep, doing his dirty work, until finally, in this most recent adventure, the trickster not only had them take out an enemy (Cthulhu, as you’ve set up), but secretly use them to upset the balance. That uneasy balance, forged long ago, was the only thing holding the outer evils in check.

So, all this time the Gunslinger didn’t want to believe that his world is currently screwed, and that he's the one who screwed it, but there’s more: now is the time to hit him with an alignment shift followed by a physical transformation, sprouting tentacles and so on. In fact, maybe it's been like that for a while now, and he's just now realizing it… he had gone mad, and his madness had hidden it from him. Body horror!

That's where you get your initial Lovecraft fix.

However! The players already like the game you've been running for them all this time! The one where you let them seemingly run roughshod over the Great Old Ones! So, let them get back in the game, get revenge, that sort of thing! So, how could they go about it?

Well, here they are, stuck on a crumbling moon or shrinking demiplane, with a few survivors. Those same NPCs can now offer some advice and maybe a few artifacts that they were able to take with them to help the heroes out and enable the next steps.

First, they should quest to get back to their regular bodies. I suggest a dream quest! This should involve saves vs. madness, spots where they look into their pasts and change some of their decisions, and finally spots where they literally fight against aberrations for the fate of their corporeal forms. Their actions in the dreams will affect the waking world!

Next, they can take the fight to the real world. A fair fight wouldn’t be winnable for them… there are no armies to raise, and the world is covered with broken madness and terrible monstrosities. However, that’s where you pull the Lovecraft back out! Some of the hallmarks of Lovecraftian horror are madness and monstrosities, sure, but often the madness comes about by the breakdown of known physical laws!

Now, they have just affected the physical world through dreams, so they need to quest not in their own dreams, but deeper into the Dreamlands to find a way to basically treat the increasingly unstable real world as if it were a dream.

Once they have that ability (maybe magic items, or a ritual they’ve undergone), then they head back to the real world and quest there, but now more as infiltrators and a tightly focused hit squad, using the world’s own madness to travel through time and fight battles in the shadows while their former selves are making the big obvious changes.

Eventually, the end game should involve a head to head with Cthulhu where they join forces and tip him off to preserve his immortality. In the end, they’ll have to save him, and use him to fight to keep the status quo, but maybe if they’re lucky they can ship his tomb offworld, so they can still have won.

[Deophaun]

Despite everything that has been thrown his way, it still hasn't sunk in to the Gunslinger that he's gone way too far into a conflict he has absolutely no chance of winning. He has somehow convinced himself that Nyarlathotep not only has stats which I am hiding from the group, but that a 12th-level party is capable of killing him with the right help (he expects some other powerful creatures from his world to help him, as if you could beat an Elder God by reducing him to 0 hit points even with a half-dozen CR 20+ creatures). He keeps saying how he's looking forward to things returning to normal, completely oblivious to the fact that things will never, ever return to normal because of how profoundly he has screwed over his homeworld.
You know, this actually makes him a perfect Lovecraftian villain: the guy so obsessed with averting the End that he is incapable of seeing how he is bringing it about. Even as the madness consumes all around him, he is utterly convinced of his victory and that everything is going as he intended.

In short, he's insane.

That's a brilliant cap to a CoC campaign. You won!

[noob]

He could go to another world and through the artifact master path(there is something called like that) and thus get one artefact of any kind(he will pick Elder Sign) as a class feature and then make copies of himself and his copies have the artefact and with a lot of Elder Sign he can banish all the stuff that invaded his home plane.
There is solutions if he wants to banish his opponents.

[Segev]

I would make sure he's aware that these things are not necessarily killable. If he either doesn't accept it or says he wants to push on anyway, run with it.

Let him meet those who warn him off. Let him meet those who encourage him and offer knowledge...but are mad. Some may be right, but many should be flat-out wrong, based on their imagined realities that their madness replaces with what really is.

Let him discover other eldritch powers, as he did the weapons of Nyarlathotep. Azathtoth scares them all. But it also destroys all. Shub Niggurath can bring change and soldiers immune to Nyarlathotep's manipulations. Nyarlathotep's own power lies in his Masks; perhaps stealing one can give power over him. Or perhaps it will overwrite the wearer. Look to The King In Yellow and The Masque of the Red Death for inspiration.

Power may warp him; is it worth the risk, or the price? Perhaps he can even come to command some of the horrors of the beyond.

Give him options for power, but at the cost of becoming more like the Elder Things he fights. More chances to win against one by opening doors for others.

Maybe he'll win, in the end. But will he have sold his humanity and all ties to it to gain that power?

[Coidzor]

Didn't the OP make a big deal that nothing at all not even gods can defeat the great old ones and outer gods and so on though?


High bar nothing, that's just giving them fiat plot invincibility.

Yes, exactly, the issue isn't that the Gunslinger isn't a high enough level or Mythic Rank and doesn't have enough buffs, swag, and allies to do it, it's that the Gunslinger's player and the GM have fundamentally different views of the Mythos and its role in a fantasy adventuring game where the PCs are effectively superheroes after a certain level.

[Arbane]

There's never a steamboat around when you really need one.

(No, I don't actually have anything useful to mention, except that the OP probably ought to sit the player down and EXPLAIN things to him.)

[Gildedragon]

So the people that mention this is probably due to different expectations of what the game is... They're probably right.
If you didn't tell the PCs they were playing an existentialist, bleak, campaign and put them through one despite their efforts to change course...
Well
Let them set the world right-side up again.
The world will be changed. But Nyarly likes chaos and change and games. It'd stand to reason he doesn't want the world destroyed.
The campaign setting will be changed, a lot, but the PCs manage to "banish" Narnar to the outer dark.

The far-realms invasion may make strange bedfellows: demons and archons, slaad and inevitables... Have Nylon be the Final Boss, lead the PCs to odd sources of power.

The game ought be fun for the players, not just the DM

Also the plan didn't "backfire". The SNAFU wasn't avoidable, not meant to work and gone awry, nor (it seems) warned against. It was DM fiat that put them in that position

[Tohsaka Rin]

You said the players have been bouncing around between realities, collecting allies? Ok, this is a perfectly winnable campaign, then.

Just have them go to the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann universe.

https://erosgrante.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/5bbss5d_tengen_toppa_gurren_lagann_the_movie_-_lagann-hen_5b8a75a4575d-mkv_snapshot_01-46-57_5b2010-01-30_20-37-055d.jpg
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gurennlagann/images/8/88/Super_Tengen_Toppa_Size.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160106052124


And yes, that attack is scaled larger than the universe.

Spiral Power is no joke.

[Thealtruistorc]

My, this thread has sort of exploded. I feel that you deserve a few explanations.

First off, this campaign is based heavily on time travel and the scepter of ages, which the party has in their possession. The catch is that almost all of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods have access to some form of time travel as well (the regular gods have been trying to find the secrets to little success). When I say that Earth was royally screwed by this, I mean that the Cthulhu-killing weapon created a time loop that is striking the Lord of Ry'leh simultaneously in every point in history (this was the only way to actually kill off an extradimensional being like Cthulhu. The origin of this weapon is a stellar story all its own). Consequently, this means the portal is open at every nanosecond of history starting from the beginning of conceivable time, so travelling back to stop it from opening is not a possibility (they already tried that).


So, it sounds like you run campaigns in a pretty "let things fall where they may" style. That's fine, but does the player in question know that?

Because from what he's saying, it might not be that he's completely not getting it, it might be because he's trying to indicate - "No, I don't want to have ****ed things up beyond any hope of repair, what kind of ****ty ending is that? That can't be what you're planning here, can it?"

And from his PoV, the "person you talked to was evil in disguise, you were ****ed from the moment you made that decision" could seem pretty unfair. And again, I'm not saying it was wrong to have that kind of deception there, just that if the player is used to a different style then their own metagame sense of how things work (don't scrutinize every NPC, it wastes time, the GM didn't put them in to be avoided) may have worked against them.

And as for the mythos gods being beyond everything and obviously foolish to mess with ... eh, if you want to run it that way that's fine. But I don't think that's the only way it could be. In a setting like Pathfinder, "and then I punched the elder gods in the face" doesn't seem a priori ridiculous. Although yeah, doing it at 12th level is ... a lot of confidence. :smalltongue:

So, TL;DR - the player may be significantly dissatisfied with this outcome on an OOC level, take that into account with how you handle it. Laughing at them with "Lol, didn't you know mythos stuff is unbeatable, noob?" is probably not a good way to go. Of course I could be wrong, they might not mind.


So the people that mention this is probably due to different expectations of what the game is... They're probably right.
If you didn't tell the PCs they were playing an existentialist, bleak, campaign and put them through one despite their efforts to change course...


The first session consisted of the group escaping from a continent which was being collapsed by Rovagug. If anything should have tipped them off that a lot of horrific stuff was going on in this universe, it should have been that. The strange part is that the rest of the party seems to get this; the Magus is playing like a traditional CoC investigator, being extremely cautious with everything and picking his battles so that he can accomplish more in the long run (his home was taken over by Nyarlathotep's nightmares, and he is trying to alter the course of history to mitigate this fate however he can). The Shaman has meanwhile reached a zen-like state where she accepts how much obscene power is out of her hands and is doing her best to work within the shreds of reality she can control. Finally, the Harbinger is just doing everything he can to save his own skin, and has already stated that if push comes to shove he will kill the Gunslinger for going too far in his grand ambition to save his homeworld. Everyone seems to have caught on by this point except the Gunslinger, no matter how many times the Magus (who has read most of Lovecraft's library) tries to talk to him about how reckless he is being.

And it wasn't just that the person he talked to betrayed him. The party did have a big argument over whether to build this weapon, eventually deciding that ending Cthulhu was worth creating a weapon that was capable of killing him. The party has suffered heavy losses in this campaign and in others (the Gunslinger has played with me for years, particularly in a lengthy nation-building campaign), so I envision that he could accept a nasty loss if need be. Nonetheless, I envision that the player is going to need a talking-to after next session.


So what are the gods of the realms doing while all their worshipers are being devoured?

Just a question, but it seems weird with a world ending event the deities are sitting around doing nothing even though their own existence is being threatened.

Like every single divine being with it's super intelligence and divine might just 'oopised' and missed this?


Nyarl IS a god... At the worst, they could fight him to a standstill. Meanwhile, the resolute army, combined with Angels, Aeons and Devils, would quickly push the eldritch horrors back. Faced with irreperable damage to his immortal position, Nyarl would have to withdraw from the field, taking his armies with him.

Of course, Asmodeous would demand a beachhead on the planet in question for his assistance, and so would some other gods.

Funny story about that.

The Gunslinger's homeworld was the private domain of a very hostile, jealous god who has refused assistance from other gods and has actively tried to kick off or kill any god or demigod who shows up on his turf (this mentality extends to his followers as well, the Gunslinger being one of them). He's been holding several heralds hostage for millennia, and the other gods absolutely hate this guy and would probably be willing to let his world die just out of spite. Desna actually snuck some followers onto the planet and may be willing to step in to protect, but that probably won't be nearly enough.


This has the makings of a great tragic story. Let him try it, knowing he will eventually die. It's all right for a player to deliberately choose an impossible goal, and die in the attempt.

The only problem is that some people don't want this to be a game you can lose.

So tell him, clearly and unambiguously, that his character can and eventually will die trying to fight powers beyond his imagining.

Then play it out.


Have a few big set pieces where the Gunslinger and the other players see the new horror of the world, and are hounded by these forces until they’re forced to escape. They’ll find themselves with a small group of survivors, some of whom are knowledgeable or NPCs that are normally very powerful, like avatars of the gods. Now that the eldritch horrors have taken over, their power is waning, but is enough to reveal the truth to the players, and perhaps lend a hand in getting them started on the next step.

[Extensive Plan]


This is similar to my plan for the next few sessions. The players will be forced to run scared from that world and possibly try and rebuild from there.

[Gildedragon]

Reading about this: clearly the solution is to use the portals to travel back in time, and kill the party before they can activate the weapon.
Paradox resolution takes out the machine.
finding themselves in all of history will be tricky, esp since nyarlathotep's minions probably are protecting the party from its future self.

Have them hunt down a few false starts, alternate beings that almost used or will use the machine, fight the minions that prevent them from preventing themselves from triggering the machine, and they gotta build up the nerve to kill themselves even if that puts their souls outside of history (and hey! You get a bunch of vestiges for a future campaign)

[Metahuman1]

So in other words you've DM fiated a no win scenario and are complaining that 1 player doesn't want a no win everything is girmdark horrible forever no matter what game when rather then tell them all that up front and several times to make your point clear during character creation, you pulled passive aggressive stunts that would have fit just as well in a super hero or Shonen Action Anime RPG.

And now you want us to help you get this one player to just suck it up and accept that you pulled the rug on him and there's jack he can do about it.


That's literally what your lastest post says to me.

[Piedmon_Sama]

IMO OP, you've got to pull a "Star Trek Voyager" here. There's basically no way you can go back to sanity, let alone the status quo, with the situation as it is. Consider introducing time travel as a third act twist, and give your players a chance to undo the devastation they wrought. It sounds to me like Gunslinger probably kinda realizes everything is borked now and this is his subtle way of saying "hey do you think we could call a mulligan on this?" I mean, I could be wrong, but it might be that and not that he's just completely missing the gravity of the situation.

[Elysiume]

IMO OP, you've got to pull a "Star Trek Voyager" here. There's basically no way you can go back to sanity, let alone the status quo, with the situation as it is. Consider introducing time travel as a third act twist, and give your players a chance to undo the devastation they wrought. It sounds to me like Gunslinger probably kinda realizes everything is borked now and this is his subtle way of saying "hey do you think we could call a mulligan on this?" I mean, I could be wrong, but it might be that and not that he's just completely missing the gravity of the situation.
First off, this campaign is based heavily on time travel and the scepter of ages, which the party has in their possession. The catch is that almost all of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods have access to some form of time travel as well (the regular gods have been trying to find the secrets to little success). When I say that Earth was royally screwed by this, I mean that the Cthulhu-killing weapon created a time loop that is striking the Lord of Ry'leh simultaneously in every point in history (this was the only way to actually kill off an extradimensional being like Cthulhu. The origin of this weapon is a stellar story all its own). Consequently, this means the portal is open at every nanosecond of history starting from the beginning of conceivable time, so travelling back to stop it from opening is not a possibility (they already tried that). [...]That ship has already sailed.

[Zanos]

All of this without magic. Guess what, the gunslinger is level 12. He's twice the man (or woman) any olympic athlete would be. The Elder Gods are invincible to us, but not nessecarily to a Pathfinder character.
This is a strong point, that is often of contention when Lovecraftian stuff gets brought into Pathfinder. Lovecraft wrote his works such that his monsters were incomprehensible to human minds. These creatures derive much of their impact from that. Their very nature is so unknown and so alien that it breaks your mind to comprehend it.

On the other hand, most of these creatures, other than perhaps Yog-Sothoh, are not described as having incredible powers or being particularly resistant to being shot in the face, because it isn't what the stories are about.

Pathfinder characters generally are not horror adventurers, and more to the point are far more capable than any of the characters in Lovecrafts stories. What is incomprehensible and unassailable to the characters in the books cannot be wholesale ported into a setting where a 20th level wizard forges planes with will and a word, binds demons to their will, and obliterates armies before breakfast.

Whether or not you want this to be achievable, of course, is up to you. Pathfinder does stat out the Elder Gods as deities, although it's debatable that they've all really earned that designation based on the original descriptions, so you could treat it as any other character who wants to kill Gods. For certain, the Gods minions are conventionally killable, although as I recall such entities are fairly notorious for not at all caring about their subjects.

[Metahuman1]

This is a strong point, that is often of contention when Lovecraftian stuff gets brought into Pathfinder. Lovecraft wrote his works such that his monsters were incomprehensible to human minds. These creatures derive much of their impact from that. Their very nature is so unknown and so alien that it breaks your mind to comprehend it.

On the other hand, most of these creatures, other than perhaps Yog-Sothoh, are not described as having incredible powers or being particularly resistant to being shot in the face, because it isn't what the stories are about.

Pathfinder characters generally are not horror adventurers, and more to the point are far more capable than any of the characters in Lovecrafts stories. What is incomprehensible and unassailable to the characters in the books cannot be wholesale ported into a setting where a 20th level wizard forges planes with will and a word, binds demons to their will, and obliterates armies before breakfast.

Whether or not you want this to be achievable, of course, is up to you. Pathfinder does stat out the Elder Gods as deities, although it's debatable that they've all really earned that designation based on the original descriptions, so you could treat it as any other character who wants to kill Gods. For certain, the Gods minions are conventionally killable, although as I recall such entities are fairly notorious for not at all caring about their subjects.

This.

Now, again, I point you to my dream world suggestion. If, for no other reason, then to call a Mullagen and give them a way to get Narolethoteph off there backs after said mullagen. It can be tweaked as needed of course to accommodate that. I'd even allow them to have still succeeded in taking down Cthuluh. Because, frankly, in Lovecraft Canon, he DID loose to a sailing ship at least once, and even if you write that off, he IS absolutely low on the Mythos totem pole by a very, very significant margin. and see above to boot.


Once you've done that, let them understand that they aren't getting another mullagen. They got Narolethoteph off there backs. They killed Cthuluh. That's basically it as far as things in that tier are concerned. If they REALLY want a crack at something else, Offer up things like the Great Race of Yith, The Color From Outer Space, or Daagon (Whom it is heavily implied is just the oldest of The Deep One's. Think if there young dragons that he's a Great Wyrm.) that are in the mythos, fairly powerful, but by no means gods/great old ones/elder gods/outer gods. Maybe also rule that some of the cultists are getting stronger, and that the more of them they wipe out, the less likely/longer it will take for anything in the great old ones/elder gods/outer gods category's to either accidentally or intentionally cause this world to go bye bye.

This way he can pursue his goal up to a point, you don't have to have your head heart by the mythos getting wasted if he does get to do so up to that point, and the rest of your players get something out of it. Your Magus got to fix his homeland and make it safer from such things.

Your member who's in it for himself get's to feel safer.

Your Shamen get's to feel like she's secured a bit more control.

Everyone get's something.

[Psyren]

*snip 1*


*snip 2*

I'm just going to +100 everything Metahuman1 just said on this topic. Along with the whole "either sit him down and explain, or give them their one mulligan and be done."

[kuhaica]

Hey. If old Man Henderson (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson) can defeat an elder god killing it and giving it the big one liner. Using his skills and fully auto shotgun. Anyone whos that insane can.

[AmberVael]

A lot of people have focused on the idea that the Gunslinger is far beyond what any known human is capable of, and therefore should be able to tackle things That Cannot Be Tackled. While valid, I think a larger point is that Pathfinder is frequently rooted in and supporting the Unlikely Hero narrative. Lord of the Rings is a prime example of this. A hobbit whose chief accomplishments were going on rambling walks and some Elven scholarship saves the world from one of the greatest evils ever known, and it should be pretty obvious just how much Tolkein's work influenced this system. Beyond Tolkein, so many myths and stories that have influenced this hobby have been about some adventurer who through luck, destiny, and magic, manages to save the world. Coming to a game with that kind of story and expectation in mind is really understandable.

So you can try and make the the opposition as mighty and scary as you want, but if this guy is coming at it from this context, all he's going to see is the greater glory from success, and not that 'oh I guess this should actually destroy me and be the end.' Because getting destroyed is not how the narrative goes, regardless of how overpowering the enemy is. All the devastation and horror you throw will only appear to be the second act, the low point before the hero wins in the finale.

This is OOC confusion and needs an OOC solution. Put all your game ideas and plans on hold until you've hashed everything out with your players. Don't be mysterious and vague and use IC hints, and certainly don't come at it thinking that your Gunslinger is wrong and you're right. The structure and history of Pathfinder really supports the Gunslinger's view more than yours.

[Psyren]

The hobbits' victory in LotR had very little to do with their class though. DM of the Rings made the right choice in NPC-izing the hobbits that were actually carrying the macguffin and focusing on the characters that had actual combat agency (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli.) To paraphrase Aragorn, their job was to do what PCs do best - make an ungodly ruckus and keep the bad guy's Eye fixed on them while the clock ran out.

Come to think of it, that's a good template for how to run this too. Have some relatively powerless NPCs be the ones to actually "defeat" Cthulhu by doing all the boring stuff - poring over dusty tomes in a library, chatting up museum curators, taking hallucinogen-fueled mind-trips to the Dreamlands etc to ultimately recover the Elder Sign(s). The PCs meanwhile are tasked with locating them, keeping them safe, and being a distraction to all the evil cultists and shambling horrors trying to kill them. That's a realistic way that a Gunslinger can "fight Cthulhu" and actually succeed.

[JBPuffin]

Honestly? I think the best solution may be to just let the Gunslinger lose. If you're already going to talk to them, go ahead, but at this point, they've decided their character will attempt the impossible. Show them the impossibility of attacking something with no statistics. The rest of the party should latch onto this pretty quickly, and if the Harbinger really is willing to kill the gunslinger, I say let them. Give them an escape route so the others can move on, have Gunslinger make a new character if they want (hopefully one less Mythos-slayer-focused), then carry on with the epic tale of a ragtag group of survivors attempting not to destroy the Elder Gods, but simply leave and find somewhere they can live out the rest of their lives in comparative peace.

Is it possible you brought this upon yourself? Maybe, but I think it isn't fair for the player to win and the GM to lose simply because of stubbornness on one's part and (at worst) a lack of foreshadowing on the other. Besides, after some of the bile spewed saying "it's all the GM's fault, they clearly don't understand Pathfinder or how storytelling works or blah blah blah :smallfurious:," I can't identify with the let-the-Slinger-win side (personal self-righteousness on my part, don'cha know).

[Calthropstu]

Honestly? I think the best solution may be to just let the Gunslinger lose. If you're already going to talk to them, go ahead, but at this point, they've decided their character will attempt the impossible. Show them the impossibility of attacking something with no statistics. The rest of the party should latch onto this pretty quickly, and if the Harbinger really is willing to kill the gunslinger, I say let them. Give them an escape route so the others can move on, have Gunslinger make a new character if they want (hopefully one less Mythos-slayer-focused), then carry on with the epic tale of a ragtag group of survivors attempting not to destroy the Elder Gods, but simply leave and find somewhere they can live out the rest of their lives in comparative peace.

Is it possible you brought this upon yourself? Maybe, but I think it isn't fair for the player to win and the GM to lose simply because of stubbornness on one's part and (at worst) a lack of foreshadowing on the other. Besides, after some of the bile spewed saying "it's all the GM's fault, they clearly don't understand Pathfinder or how storytelling works or blah blah blah :smallfurious:," I can't identify with the let-the-Slinger-win side (personal self-righteousness on my part, don'cha know).

I am siding with the gunslinger here. If the OP continues this way, he has pretty much declared "rocks fall, everyone dies." Which is pretty much the worst way to GM this. Ultimately, the GM is responsible for this, not the gunslinger.

[bekeleven]

First, they should quest to get back to their regular bodies. I suggest a dream quest! This should involve saves vs. madness, spots where they look into their pasts and change some of their decisions, and finally spots where they literally fight against aberrations for the fate of their corporeal forms. Their actions in the dreams will affect the waking world!

Next, they can take the fight to the real world. A fair fight wouldn’t be winnable for them… there are no armies to raise, and the world is covered with broken madness and terrible monstrosities. However, that’s where you pull the Lovecraft back out! Some of the hallmarks of Lovecraftian horror are madness and monstrosities, sure, but often the madness comes about by the breakdown of known physical laws!

Now, they have just affected the physical world through dreams, so they need to quest not in their own dreams, but deeper into the Dreamlands to find a way to basically treat the increasingly unstable real world as if it were a dream.

[...]I, too, think that all campaigns could be improved by just literally turning into Nobilis.

[AnimeTheCat]

The hobbits' victory in LotR had very little to do with their class though. DM of the Rings made the right choice in NPC-izing the hobbits that were actually carrying the macguffin and focusing on the characters that had actual combat agency (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli.) To paraphrase Aragorn, their job was to do what PCs do best - make an ungodly ruckus and keep the bad guy's Eye fixed on them while the clock ran out.

Come to think of it, that's a good template for how to run this too. Have some relatively powerless NPCs be the ones to actually "defeat" Cthulhu by doing all the boring stuff - poring over dusty tomes in a library, chatting up museum curators, taking hallucinogen-fueled mind-trips to the Dreamlands etc to ultimately recover the Elder Sign(s). The PCs meanwhile are tasked with locating them, keeping them safe, and being a distraction to all the evil cultists and shambling horrors trying to kill them. That's a realistic way that a Gunslinger can "fight Cthulhu" and actually succeed.

ermagerd... I love this idea so much. I'll need to use this.

[Jay R]

This is similar to my plan for the next few sessions. The players will be forced to run scared from that world and possibly try and rebuild from there.

Just don't forget that it has to be possible, and indeed likely, to really lose - die, go insane, something - or it's not a Cthulhu campaign, just a D&D game using Lovecraftian names but not the concepts that go with them.

[Metahuman1]

I am siding with the gunslinger here. If the OP continues this way, he has pretty much declared "rocks fall, everyone dies." Which is pretty much the worst way to GM this. Ultimately, the GM is responsible for this, not the gunslinger.

I'm backing this point firmly.

[atemu1234]

This has the makings of a great tragic story. Let him try it, knowing he will eventually die. It's all right for a player to deliberately choose an impossible goal, and die in the attempt.

The only problem is that some people don't want this to be a game you can lose.

So tell him, clearly and unambiguously, that his character can and eventually will die trying to fight powers beyond his imagining.

Then play it out.

I'm gonna call this scenario 'Wandering Gunslinger Wanders Into Town, Except Instead of Banditos it's Lovecraftian Entities'.

I like it. Give him the chance to heroically sacrifice himself to, if not seal the rift, then set back the tide for another few ages. After all, the Great Old Ones have nothing but time.

[Mordaedil]

I am siding with the gunslinger here. If the OP continues this way, he has pretty much declared "rocks fall, everyone dies." Which is pretty much the worst way to GM this. Ultimately, the GM is responsible for this, not the gunslinger.

I agree, but "rocks fall, everyone dies" is entirely appropriate for a Cthulhu campaign. But it kinda misses the point. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is meant to illustrate a DM so frustrated with his player party that he kills them all off so that he doesn't have to put up with the consequences. This isn't that, this is the players setting themselves up for failure. The best you can hope for in a Cthulhu campaign is that the rocks don't hit you when they inevitably fall.

So then what is the point? The only real point is to make the fall of the rocks as spectacular as possible, really. That is really the only duty the DM has in a game like this. Kill off the players, but make it as rewarding as possible.

[ben-zayb]

The thing is, scenarios like this are trying to mix the Cosmic Horror genre with Heroic Fantasy genre, the latter of which is strongly rooted to the idea of doing the impossible and overcoming the odds. One of the genre's gonna give.

It seems to me the campaign can still be turned into Lovecraft Lite (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LovecraftLite), in case you chose to favor the Heroic Fantasy conceit over the Cosmic Horror conceit. Heroic sacrifice for the gunslinger sounds like a nice middle ground, and in this game is quite frankly just a minor setback anyway.

[Metahuman1]

I agree, but "rocks fall, everyone dies" is entirely appropriate for a Cthulhu campaign. But it kinda misses the point. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is meant to illustrate a DM so frustrated with his player party that he kills them all off so that he doesn't have to put up with the consequences. This isn't that, this is the players setting themselves up for failure. The best you can hope for in a Cthulhu campaign is that the rocks don't hit you when they inevitably fall.

So then what is the point? The only real point is to make the fall of the rocks as spectacular as possible, really. That is really the only duty the DM has in a game like this. Kill off the players, but make it as rewarding as possible.

Ok.

Go look at the discriptions of all the reasons all the not human things are horrible and dangerous and powerful and yadda yadda.


Now go read all the Robert E Howard authored Conan stories.

Notice that the settings are oddly similar in a lot of ways, and seem to trade in some very similar ideas, except that at the end Conan can still stab most of the cosmic things in his world in the face and this will have a noticeable effect on them?




Now go watch some Shonen anime. Look at how impossible the build up is suppose to be in most of them? Notice how in a significant number of the one's popular in the west the warnings and build ups just get more and more in line with the kind the OP described giving for the Lovecraftian everything in his universe? Now notice how in most of them, the hero's Triumph anyway and usually with out horrific permanent consequences?



Now go look at mid to high power supers that do Cosmic stuff at least part time. Fantastic Four. Silver Surfer. Ironman. Hulk. Captain Marvel and her prior identity Miss Marvel. The X-men. She Hulk. Dr. Strange. Thor. The Avengers. Ghostrider. Superman. Aquaman. Wonder Woman. The Justice League. Green Lantern.

Notice how when the big cosmic stuff is happening the warnings and description's again fit that bill of the one's you have for the Mythos type stuffs? And that these things, again, are not uncommonly out played/outmaneuvered/bested/defeated?



It is Rocks Fall Everyone Dies, in the worst way, if the OP goes that rout at this point.

Would it be different if he'd been more blunt OOC as he absolutely should have and needed to have been if he really wanted Call of Cthulu and not Conan/Dragon Ball Super/Dr. Strange/Aquaman? Sure. But he wasn't, so it isn't. So there's no good reason to defend letting the rocks fall at this point.

[Mordaedil]

There's the eldritch and then there's the cosmic horror. I'm fine with Conan being able to fight things from beyond comprehension because I understand that's inherent in what he does. I've frankly never seen anime where they fight cosmic horrors. I'm okay with Superman fighting the things he does, but the thing is, he's never been pitted against Cthulhu because the genres are just verily different and it'd be a case of unstoppable object hitting the immovable wall.

How would it end? Can Superman even become insane enough to percieve the horrors? If he can, one can assume he wins in his mind, while reality would be different. If he can't, well, there's no story there. They just can't meet.

If you do a roleplaying game and you throw in Cthulhu into it, your players should be well and truly ****ed. Otherwise something is done wrong and somebody isn't going to end up happy and it's usually me. I can't dictate how other people run their games, but if you posit the elder gods and allow your players to overcome them, rather than circumvent them, then you are using them improperly and they are just regular D&D things with a different skin. How boring. I'd rather play in an epic adventure where I go down and take over Hell.

Like someone else said before, D&D and CoC horror aren't easy to fit together and at some point one will win over the other. I prefer the horror and existential crisis myself.

[Telonius]

So this Gunslinger is obsessed with bringing down a Great Old One. He's sacrificed a lot to get to it, possibly gone mad (and maybe given up a bit of his humanity) in the process. But he shows no sign of stopping, and appears willing to storm the gates of Baator (or anyplace else for that matter) to achieve his goal.

His name wouldn't happen to be Roland, would it?

I'd go with it. He wants a Dark Tower, give him one. The story is going to be a glorious defeat, but it's what he's signing up for.

[Tohsaka Rin]

If you do a roleplaying game and you throw in Cthulhu into it, your players should be well and truly ****ed. Otherwise something is done wrong and somebody isn't going to end up happy and it's usually me. I can't dictate how other people run their games, but if you posit the elder gods and allow your players to overcome them, rather than circumvent them, then you are using them improperly and they are just regular D&D things with a different skin. How boring. I'd rather play in an epic adventure where I go down and take over Hell.

Like someone else said before, D&D and CoC horror aren't easy to fit together and at some point one will win over the other. I prefer the horror and existential crisis myself.

I think we see the root of your problem.

On one hand, you're forgetting that the game is for everyone at the table, not just you. On the other hand, and you're lacking the imagination to think of the impossible.

The solution?


http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/anYpYVn_700b.jpg
Because what's more metal than fighting cosmic horrors with puny humans? Puny humans making a giant construct bigger than a galaxy, out of pure will.


Sometimes doing the impossible, and breaking the unbreakable is more fun than creeping, inevitable doom. Arguably, that's even what the Cthulhu mythos are about, because otherwise, the series would have ended pretty quickly.

When steamship beats cosmic horror, you're not in the inevitable doom genre. You're in shounen-lite.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You know, this actually makes him a perfect Lovecraftian villain: the guy so obsessed with averting the End that he is incapable of seeing how he is bringing it about. Even as the madness consumes all around him, he is utterly convinced of his victory and that everything is going as he intended.

In short, he's insane.

That's a brilliant cap to a CoC campaign. You won!
This is actually what I thought on reading the OP. I mean, I get that it doesn't function OOC, but you got to appreciate the (unplanned!) brilliance of the IC story.

[Coidzor]

I agree, but "rocks fall, everyone dies" is entirely appropriate for a Cthulhu campaign. But it kinda misses the point. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is meant to illustrate a DM so frustrated with his player party that he kills them all off so that he doesn't have to put up with the consequences. This isn't that, this is the players setting themselves up for failure. The best you can hope for in a Cthulhu campaign is that the rocks don't hit you when they inevitably fall.

So then what is the point? The only real point is to make the fall of the rocks as spectacular as possible, really. That is really the only duty the DM has in a game like this. Kill off the players, but make it as rewarding as possible.

It's appropriate for games using systems like Call of Cthulhu when set up right and with the right atmosphere.

It's inherently inappropriate for games in the D&D tradition, especially if the GM doesn't communicate with their players about altering expectations.


There's the eldritch and then there's the cosmic horror. I'm fine with Conan being able to fight things from beyond comprehension because I understand that's inherent in what he does.

:smallconfused:

You should probably be made aware that Howard and Lovecraft corresponded and Conan was mucking around with some of the dudes from the Mythos and some of the gribblies of Howard's creation got added to what passes for a canon of the Mythos.

Because it really sounds like you didn't know that with how you're talking here.


I've frankly never seen anime where they fight cosmic horrors. I'm okay with Superman fighting the things he does, but the thing is, he's never been pitted against Cthulhu because the genres are just verily different and it'd be a case of unstoppable object hitting the immovable wall.

At this point I have to wonder if it actually is the case that Superman has never fought Cthulhu.


How would it end? Can Superman even become insane enough to percieve the horrors? If he can, one can assume he wins in his mind, while reality would be different. If he can't, well, there's no story there. They just can't meet.

That's not how it works. Indeed, this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim that you can't even perceive the Mythos until after it's driven you crazy.


If you do a roleplaying game and you throw in Cthulhu into it, your players should be well and truly ****ed.

No, that's doing it wrong. How it works depends inherently on what system one is playing, what genre of game one is playing, and the culture of the particular group.

Making an absolutist statement that isn't even based on anything solid is just absurd.


Otherwise something is done wrong and somebody isn't going to end up happy and it's usually me.

Then, yes, you shouldn't play in games that aren't games of Call of Cthulhu that tend towards the depressing instead of the Henderson.

[Prime32]

I'm okay with Superman fighting the things he does, but the thing is, he's never been pitted against Cthulhu because the genres are just verily different and it'd be a case of unstoppable object hitting the immovable wall.

How would it end? Can Superman even become insane enough to percieve the horrors? If he can, one can assume he wins in his mind, while reality would be different. If he can't, well, there's no story there. They just can't meet.Superman is a being from beyond the stars. He looks like a man but isn't one (though he has plans to use human women to produce freakish hybrids). In power and intelligence his race vastly outstrip what any human could be ever capable of. He can perceive everything from the movement of individual atoms, to the cries of dying galaxies, to the color of a human soul, to things so strange and wonderful that human language lacks the words to describe them. Superman's very existence is a pillar of the universe he lives in (as in, Superman exists first, then the universe exists to hold him, then humans are incidental).

In a Lovecraft story, just learning that such a being exists would be enough to drive you mad, and this would be treated as an entirely rational course of action. In a Superman story, the only person who thinks like a Lovecraft protagonist is Lex Luthor.


What makes something a cosmic horror isn't inherent to the thing itself, but in how people react to it. Even the word "eldritch" means "elf-like" - elves are very different from humans, and Lovecraft certainly regarded that as terrifying, but D&D characters do not. It would be one thing if non-human PCs were banned, and every encounter with an elf was like this:

The man turns to face you... only it is not a man, and it can only charitably be said to have a face. Its proportions are somehow off, like a crude sketch of a person drawn by an unskilled hand. Its movements are strange - too squamous, sinuous and silent beyond human ability, and its skin does not seem to catch the light as skin should. Its too-narrow head is framed by two sinister points that might have been its ears, and sunk with two glistening orbs - the cold black eyes of one watches dispassionately as human empires rise, fall and crumble to dust. They roll about before narrowing their gaze upon you, and its mouth splits open in a deceptive smile. At once, you are assaulted by a foul odour like the stench of rotting trees. Then, from whatever hideous organs lurk within its gullet, comes a queer sound, like a baby's gurgling mixed with the howls of a wild dog - you realise soon with horror that it intends a mimicry of human speech.

"Greenleaf's Carpentry, how may I help you?" it hisses.

But there hasn't been any indication of that.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Prime32, for the love of all that's True/Neutral, do NOT take up carpentry.

I don't think our collective San score could take it.

[Segev]

For the record, "squamous" means "scaled." Dragons are squamous. Squid are not. Elves usually aren't, either. (This is a word I often misused based on hearing it in lovecraftian style prose until I learned its meaning. It still sounds far more creepy to me than "scaled" suggests. But it doesn't mean, as I once thought, "somehow really squicky.")

[Calthropstu]

I've frankly never seen anime where they fight cosmic horrors.

Behold, the horror (http://www.crunchyroll.com/demonbane/episode-1-i-am-providence-568214)

I also just found a new cthulhu based anime is coming out based on the force of will card game next year.
Thanks for making me look it up.

[Arbane]

Come to think of it, that's a good template for how to run this too. Have some relatively powerless NPCs be the ones to actually "defeat" Cthulhu by doing all the boring stuff - poring over dusty tomes in a library, chatting up museum curators, taking hallucinogen-fueled mind-trips to the Dreamlands etc to ultimately recover the Elder Sign(s). The PCs meanwhile are tasked with locating them, keeping them safe, and being a distraction to all the evil cultists and shambling horrors trying to kill them. That's a realistic way that a Gunslinger can "fight Cthulhu" and actually succeed.

That's a GREAT plan. Screw those prima-donna player-characters and their 'doing stuff', Deus Ex NPChina is where the REAL fun is at! Who do they think they are, trying to 'play' a 'game' and RUINING your wonderful tale of inevitable futility and madness?



At this point I have to wonder if it actually is the case that Superman has never fought Cthulhu.


Google says no.

However, Aquaman has fought Cthulhu AND WON.
(And Solomon Grundy punched a Cthulhu-ugly-alike in the brain once.)


No, that's doing it wrong. How it works depends inherently on what system one is playing, what genre of game one is playing, and the culture of the particular group.

Yep.

To quote someone on RPGnet: "In Call of Cthulhu, if you see Cthulhu, you go crazy and die. In Exalted, you cut him in half and beat him to death with his own tentacles."

As for anime where the characters fight eldritch horrors... Nyaruko, Crawling With Love? (Yes, it's Nylarthotep-chan doing most of the fighting, but it still counts.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

That's a GREAT plan. Screw those prima-donna player-characters and their 'doing stuff', Deus Ex NPChina is where the REAL fun is at! Who do they think they are, trying to 'play' a 'game' and RUINING your wonderful tale of inevitable futility and madness?

This actually describes a LOT of video games, you know. Escort missions, scrolling through NPC dialogue to get through their backstories and years of research, learning enemy weaknesses, and fighting off waves of monsters.

This describes, off the top of my head... All three Diablo games, most of the Persona games, more than a few Final Fantasies, a bunch of Legend of Zelda games, the list goes on...

The only thing missing is 'fighting the final boss yourself', really.

EDIT - Oh! Technically Earthbound, now that I think about it, except that the player takes the psychedelic trips. Actually, Earthbound is probably the best Call of Cthulhu game I've ever played, it just has the serial numbers filed off, and the grim darkness turned down a bunch.

[Deophaun]

It's inherently inappropriate for games in the D&D tradition, especially if the GM doesn't communicate with their players about altering expectations.
Since only one player of the group is not getting it, and other players have attempted to make him get it, I wouldn't be so quick to deem this the GM's failure.

[Arbane]

If the plot would end exactly the same way if the PCs had never shown up, I'd argue you're generally DOIN IT WRONG.

And just to remind people of the genre D&D/PF are played in, here's a Mythic Pathfinder guide on how to kill Cthulhu with a ship (http://designofdragons.blogspot.com/2016/04/in-brightest-day-in-blackest-night-no.html).
By throwing it at him.
From halfway across the galaxy.
Twice.

(Warning: Contains cheese.)

[Segev]

It's actually pretty common for games to leave the research and development to NPCs. Games that attempt to let the players do it often struggle, because it's hard to make engaging mechanics for it that leave it feeling like a game. Take a look at the hot mess that is Exalted crafting sometime, especially in 3e. In 3e, they did an admirable effort at making it a game! Something engaging! ...but they made it into something you had to be Sir Craftsalot the Eternal Whittler in order to play properly, and then went on to make those who really dedicate to it get to ignore the "game" part entirely. Woops.

I mean, they meant well. It's a cool idea. But...it is definitely a first edition of a real crafting system. I applaud the effort; it's going to take a lot of iterations to get it as refined as, say, combat tends to be in most modern RPGs.

[Gildedragon]

Superman is a being from beyond the stars. He looks like a man but isn't one (though he has plans to use human women to produce freakish hybrids). In power and intelligence his race vastly outstrip what any human could be ever capable of. He can perceive everything from the movement of individual atoms, to the cries of dying galaxies, to the color of a human soul, to things so strange and wonderful that human language lacks the words to describe them. Superman's very existence is a pillar of the universe he lives in (as in, Superman exists first, then the universe exists to hold him, then humans are incidental)...

... In a Superman story, the only person who thinks like a Lovecraft protagonist is Lex Luthor.
beautiful!
I love the thought of this. Superman is playing Exalted, Lex CoC... And the DM has them at the same table.


The man turns to face you... only it is not a man, and it can only charitably be said to have a face. Its proportions are somehow off, like a crude sketch of a person drawn by an unskilled hand. Its movements are strange - too squamous, sinuous and silent beyond human ability, and its skin does not seem to catch the light as skin should. Its too-narrow head is framed by two sinister points that might have been its ears, and sunk with two glistening orbs - the cold black eyes of one watches dispassionately as human empires rise, fall and crumble to dust. They roll about before narrowing their gaze upon you, and its mouth splits open in a deceptive smile. At once, you are assaulted by a foul odour like the stench of rotting trees. Then, from whatever hideous organs lurk within its gullet, comes a queer sound, like a baby's gurgling mixed with the howls of a wild dog - you realise soon with horror that it intends a mimicry of human speech.

"Greenleaf's Carpentry, how may I help you?" it hisses. -falls off the stairmaster laughing-

[Psyren]

That's a GREAT plan. Screw those prima-donna player-characters and their 'doing stuff', Deus Ex NPChina is where the REAL fun is at! Who do they think they are, trying to 'play' a 'game' and RUINING your wonderful tale of inevitable futility and madness?

So a Gunslinger firing their gun is not "doing stuff?" :smallconfused:
Did you think the Gunslinger player rolled a Gunslinger so they wouldn't have to do exactly that? Your post makes no sense to me.

If the players do nothing, the NPCs die and the world ends. That's agency, not deus ex.

[Deophaun]

If the plot would end exactly the same way if the PCs had never shown up, I'd argue you're generally DOIN IT WRONG.
The plot of the current campaign wouldn't have ended up with a multi-dimensional temporal bomb killing Cthulhu at the cost of royally screwing Earth and sounding the death knell for humanity. So, the argument need not apply here.

[Arbane]

So a Gunslinger firing their gun is not "doing stuff?" :smallconfused:
Did you think the Gunslinger player rolled a Gunslinger so they wouldn't have to do exactly that? Your post makes no sense to me.

If the players do nothing, the NPCs die and the world ends. That's agency, not deus ex.

Dark purple + Comic Sans indicates that I am attempting to channel The Worst GM Ever.

Edit: Oh, wait, you know that. The point I was trying to make is that telling the PCs "Nice job being the decoys while someone you never knew about fixed the actual problem!" ... well, some groups will take it better than others. (Personally, I HATEHATEHATE 'stand aside, and let the IMPORTANT people fix things!' plots, possibly due to ODing on that back in the 1990s.)


This actually describes a LOT of video games, you know. Escort missions, scrolling through NPC dialogue to get through their backstories and years of research, learning enemy weaknesses, and fighting off waves of monsters.


I've played a grand total of ONE video game with a good escort mission, and that's Ico.

Edit to add:



At this point I have to wonder if it actually is the case that Superman has never fought Cthulhu.


It suddenly occurred to me that Superman HAS had on occasion to deal with the actions of an otherdimensional being of unknowable abilities that can warp reality at its whim that appears when the cosmos is in the correct alignment....and he's beaten Mr. Mxyzptlk every time he's shown up. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Dark purple + Comic Sans indicates that I am attempting to channel The Worst GM Ever.

Edit: Oh, wait, you know that.

How on earth would I know that? :smallconfused:


The point I was trying to make is that telling the PCs "Nice job being the decoys while someone you never knew about fixed the actual problem!" ... well, some groups will take it better than others. (Personally, I HATEHATEHATE 'stand aside, and let the IMPORTANT people fix things!' plots, possibly due to ODing on that back in the 1990s.)

I'm not sure what you're saying here. In LotR, were Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf inconsequential? Were they not important?

[atemu1234]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. In LotR, were Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf inconsequential? Were they not important?

No, they weren't, until they literally served as a distraction. Which, FYI, most players would hate with a burning passion. Their subplot was completely separate from the major plot of the books.

And, more importantly, Aragorn knew what he was getting into. He CHOSE to go a different direction than Frodo. He wasn't shunted onto that path and told that it didn't matter by Tolkien.

[Psyren]

No, they weren't, until they literally served as a distraction.

I'd be willing to bet Tolkien would disagree with you.



And, more importantly, Aragorn knew what he was getting into. He CHOSE to go a different direction than Frodo. He wasn't shunted onto that path and told that it didn't matter by Tolkien.

And PCs can't CHOOSE to protect NPCs? :smallconfused:

Say, you know why Aragorn chose to go a different direction? Why he didn't just take the Ring to Mordor himself? Because he knew that would be a disaster and an utterly foolish choice. Kind of like, say, grabbing your pistol and shooting Cthulhu in the face with it.

[Mordaedil]

I think we see the root of your problem.

On one hand, you're forgetting that the game is for everyone at the table, not just you. On the other hand, and you're lacking the imagination to think of the impossible.

The solution?
If everyone at the table I play at agrees to mix D&D with Cthulhu mythos and we don't go with the horror, then yes, admittedly I am the problem at the table and I'd not enjoy myself. It's not that I lack imagination here, but I think it's really boring to reduce the monsters to generic mobs. It just flies in the face of what I think is cool about Cthulhu is all. I mean, why even do that when a regular ass D&D monster would suffice then? I think the lack of imagination is on the other foot here.


It's appropriate for games using systems like Call of Cthulhu when set up right and with the right atmosphere.

It's inherently inappropriate for games in the D&D tradition, especially if the GM doesn't communicate with their players about altering expectations.

Yes, I can agree that D&D is a poor fit for doing Call of Cthulhu, but I also think if it is being attempted, sticking with some of the conventions is entirely appropriate. I mean, it really depends on the scale, now doesn't it? Some of the classic beginning adventures for CoC could easily be done in D&D and be somewhat between invastigative horror mystery and combat monster crawl, but as it scales up, I think one will won out over the other and I tend to prefer horror to beat adventure.

That's a personal preference of course.


:smallconfused:

You should probably be made aware that Howard and Lovecraft corresponded and Conan was mucking around with some of the dudes from the Mythos and some of the gribblies of Howard's creation got added to what passes for a canon of the Mythos.

Because it really sounds like you didn't know that with how you're talking here.
There is a lot of Conan material and I have indeed not read all or even most of it. I was not however aware of anything of Conan getting into the Cthulhu Mythos, that's something I must



At this point I have to wonder if it actually is the case that Superman has never fought Cthulhu.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone wrote that, albeit I see it sort of like how someone did a Spawn/Batman crossover, where they wrote with such a heavy emphasis on one character that they basically butchered the other.



That's not how it works. Indeed, this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim that you can't even perceive the Mythos until after it's driven you crazy.
That is true, it's a personal interpretation of the material. I just like it, because it makes people not even realize that they are under a threat and the lines between what is real and what is false blurs and blends and I find it fascinating to play under the assumption that you can't even trust what your senses are telling you.

Personal preference of course.



No, that's doing it wrong. How it works depends inherently on what system one is playing, what genre of game one is playing, and the culture of the particular group.

Making an absolutist statement that isn't even based on anything solid is just absurd.
Oh sorry, I write everything with the assumption that it is merely my opinion, not an absolute statement. It is my expectation, not an absolute truth. My mistake.



Then, yes, you shouldn't play in games that aren't games of Call of Cthulhu that tend towards the depressing instead of the Henderson.
I tend to substitute mindflayers in place of other cosmic horrors in my regular D&D stuff where horror isn't the focus, so yeah, kind of.


Behold, the horror (http://www.crunchyroll.com/demonbane/episode-1-i-am-providence-568214)

I also just found a new cthulhu based anime is coming out based on the force of will card game next year.
Thanks for making me look it up.
Neat. Also glad my contentious post got someone value.


Superman is a being from beyond the stars. He looks like a man but isn't one (though he has plans to use human women to produce freakish hybrids). In power and intelligence his race vastly outstrip what any human could be ever capable of. He can perceive everything from the movement of individual atoms, to the cries of dying galaxies, to the color of a human soul, to things so strange and wonderful that human language lacks the words to describe them. Superman's very existence is a pillar of the universe he lives in (as in, Superman exists first, then the universe exists to hold him, then humans are incidental).

In a Lovecraft story, just learning that such a being exists would be enough to drive you mad, and this would be treated as an entirely rational course of action. In a Superman story, the only person who thinks like a Lovecraft protagonist is Lex Luthor.


What makes something a cosmic horror isn't inherent to the thing itself, but in how people react to it. Even the word "eldritch" means "elf-like" - elves are very different from humans, and Lovecraft certainly regarded that as terrifying, but D&D characters do not. It would be one thing if non-human PCs were banned, and every encounter with an elf was like this:

But there hasn't been any indication of that.
Yes, exactly. Also, beautiful writing there.

[Tohsaka Rin]

If everyone at the table I play at agrees to mix D&D with Cthulhu mythos and we don't go with the horror, then yes, admittedly I am the problem at the table and I'd not enjoy myself. It's not that I lack imagination here, but I think it's really boring to reduce the monsters to generic mobs. It just flies in the face of what I think is cool about Cthulhu is all. I mean, why even do that when a regular ass D&D monster would suffice then? I think the lack of imagination is on the other foot here.


There is a middle ground between 'reducing horrors from beyond to faceless stickmen worth x amount of exp' and 'reducing the player characters to scum-tier civies who only last a few sessions before inevitably failing' you know.

You can have your horrors actually scary, and your heroes competent AND ultimately successful. They're not mutually-exclusive.

[Mordaedil]

There is a middle ground between 'reducing horrors from beyond to faceless stickmen worth x amount of exp' and 'reducing the player characters to scum-tier civies who only last a few sessions before inevitably failing' you know.

You can have your horrors actually scary, and your heroes competent AND ultimately successful. They're not mutually-exclusive.

This is true, albeit success, as far as I'd define it, would be for the cosmic horrors to ignore humanity for another day. Drawing their malice and defeating them feels... Kindal ike it defeats the point a little bit, to me. At least the higher tiers of the mythos. Vampires and zombies etc or even Cthulhu himself are definately handidly doable by a heroic party where they can kinda fight back, to an extent.

Then again, if you are running a divine campaign where your players are gods, fighting the Elder Gods would be really appropriate and kinda scary fun.

I assumed it wasn't at that stage yet, in this case though.

[Tohsaka Rin]

This is true, albeit success, as far as I'd define it, would be for the cosmic horrors to ignore humanity for another day. Drawing their malice and defeating them feels... Kindal ike it defeats the point a little bit, to me. At least the higher tiers of the mythos. Vampires and zombies etc or even Cthulhu himself are definately handidly doable by a heroic party where they can kinda fight back, to an extent.

Then again, if you are running a divine campaign where your players are gods, fighting the Elder Gods would be really appropriate and kinda scary fun.

I assumed it wasn't at that stage yet, in this case though.

Well, keep in mind that there's more than one definition of 'defeat'. Foiling invasion plans, temporarily banishing things, destroying things they value, things like that.

Borrowing that Superman/Lex Luthor example, the former defeats the latter quite often, yet (almost) never kills him. I suppose one man's victory, is another man's defeat, and... That was worded oddly, I appologise.

[Mordaedil]

That is definately something I agree with.

[Barstro]

I've never cared for the type of play-logic where a player decides that if he wants to do something, then it must be possible. It's akin to someone wanting to roleplay a farmer who doesn't like the fact that the nearby mountain creates too much shade on his field and, rather than plant in an appropriate area, decides that he can grab a bronze hammer and destroy the mountain.

Let your player try to take on en Elder God. Let the farmer take on a mountain and eventually cause a rock slide that kills him, buries the field, and irreparably diverts a stream so that all his widow's remaining fields are flooded.

[Arbane]

Also, it's kind of ridiculous to say that the LotR hobbits were 'NPCs', when half of the novel is written from their points of view.
(To be fair, in a novel EVERYONE is an NPC. Because they're not player characters, since it's not a game.)

[Zanos]

I've never cared for the type of play-logic where a player decides that if he wants to do something, then it must be possible. It's akin to someone wanting to roleplay a farmer who doesn't like the fact that the nearby mountain creates too much shade on his field and, rather than plant in an appropriate area, decides that he can grab a bronze hammer and destroy the mountain.

Let your player try to take on en Elder God. Let the farmer take on a mountain and eventually cause a rock slide that kills him, buries the field, and irreparably diverts a stream so that all his widow's remaining fields are flooded.
I agree with you, but the default setting and almost every other widespread 3.5 setting that includes deities makes them impermanent fixtures; they can be slain by sufficiently powerful mortals, usually with backing from artifacts or other deities, in combat or via plot. They are not immutable. Making Mythos gods above that because they became of a mimetic phenomena is pretty silly.

[Psyren]

Also, it's kind of ridiculous to say that the LotR hobbits were 'NPCs', when half of the novel is written from their points of view.
(To be fair, in a novel EVERYONE is an NPC. Because they're not player characters, since it's not a game.)

The argument though was that nobody except the hobbits was doing anything important in that narrative. That's patently false.

[Barstro]

I agree with you, but the default setting and almost every other widespread 3.5 setting that includes deities makes them impermanent fixtures; they can be slain by sufficiently powerful mortals, usually with backing from artifacts or other deities, in combat or via plot. They are not immutable. Making Mythos gods above that because they became of a mimetic phenomena is pretty silly.

True. But a mountain is likewise "not immutable". My point is that the PC in question cannot complete the task without some other intervention. I consider it perfectly logical that his character's in-game knowledge is that such a task cannot be done*. However, the PLAYER is choosing to ignore that fact because "it's a game and I want to do it, so it must be possible". Just because some gods can be killed by some PCs does not mean THIS god can be killed by THIS PC. Were that the case, all college dropouts would start Fortune 500 companies and become billionaires.

*Without another more powerful entity coming to that PC and providing the necessary means. It's glaringly narcissistic to think that an entity more powerful than this other remarkably powerful entity is going to coincidentally decide to let you do exactly what you want. It would be like me deciding one day that I am going to convince an ant to go kill a wasp queen and I just happen to have chosen some completely insane ant that has been dreaming of doing just that.

Bah, I'm done ranting about the inability for certain players to accept the truth of their game's worlds. On here, at least; I'll still keep doing it in my head.

[Calthropstu]

The argument though was that nobody except the hobbits was doing anything important in that narrative. That's patently false.

Aside from the hobbits, the only ones of import were Aragorn and Gandalf. Aragorn for getting the barrow wights into the battle, and Gandalf for distracting Sauron. Gimli was not inherently important, nor was Legolas. But the bluff Gandalf made against Sauron was one that could NOT be ignored. Gandalf had the knowledge and power to wield the one ring. By marching an army to Mordor, he was bluffing that HE had the ring, distracting Sauron from the actual location of the ring. And the barrow wights recruited by Aragorn were the only thing that stopped the destruction of Minas Tirith.
Aside from that, the rest had VERY little impact.

[zergling.exe]

Aside from the hobbits, the only ones of import were Aragorn and Gandalf. Aragorn for getting the barrow wights into the battle, and Gandalf for distracting Sauron. Gimli was not inherently important, nor was Legolas. But the bluff Gandalf made against Sauron was one that could NOT be ignored. Gandalf had the knowledge and power to wield the one ring. By marching an army to Mordor, he was bluffing that HE had the ring, distracting Sauron from the actual location of the ring. And the barrow wights recruited by Aragorn were the only thing that stopped the destruction of Minas Tirith.
Aside from that, the rest had VERY little impact.

Boromir had a HUGE impact on Frodo at the very least, causing the Fellowship to split and allowed them to have Frodo and Sam head towards Mt. Doom while the rest went into Rohan. Gimli was the reason they went into Moria. I don't think Legolas had much impact though. Though in the movies he did spot Saruman's crows. Didn't really change much though.

Also, the ghosts at the end weren't barrow wights, those showed up back before the hobbits reached Bree and were beaten by Tom Bombadil.

[Barstro]

Boromir had a HUGE impact on Frodo at the very least, causing the Fellowship to split and allowed them to have Frodo and Sam head towards Mt. Doom while the rest went into Rohan.

I'm ill-versed in LotR lore, so I'll take what you said at face value.

That being said; such an action by Boromir seems exactly like an NPC action, not a PC action. All it did was push along the narrative instead of adding to it.

EDIT: ugh, I need to stop feeding tangents. Why are tangents always so much fun? Back to topic; gunslinger bad. Give him a straight-jacket, sit him in the corner, and tell him that he's actually fighting a god, even though everyone else thinks he's just drooling. Then continue to the adventure with the rest of the party.

[noob]

Well the latter option is not nice to the player.
Do not resolve that kind of issues without saying to the player that this campaign is all about losing and making stuff without ever reaching any objective since anyway the campaign universe is cold and uncaring, hostile and invincible and is the gm(the latter is the reason why people should avoid going there) even before there is eldritch stuff.
The real reason for failure of all the adventurers and why they will all become mad is that the gm chose that they would fail because that is what the campaign is about and the gm should say it to his players in a very clear way so that players that do not want to play for losing(which is an objective like many others) just go to another gm.

[Deophaun]

I've never cared for the type of play-logic where a player decides that if he wants to do something, then it must be possible. It's akin to someone wanting to roleplay a farmer who doesn't like the fact that the nearby mountain creates too much shade on his field and, rather than plant in an appropriate area, decides that he can grab a bronze hammer and destroy the mountain.
You know, something like that actually happened. Twenty two years later, the farmer won.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashrath_Manjhi

[Psyren]

Aside from the hobbits, the only ones of import were Aragorn and Gandalf. Aragorn for getting the barrow wights into the battle, and Gandalf for distracting Sauron. Gimli was not inherently important, nor was Legolas. But the bluff Gandalf made against Sauron was one that could NOT be ignored. Gandalf had the knowledge and power to wield the one ring. By marching an army to Mordor, he was bluffing that HE had the ring, distracting Sauron from the actual location of the ring. And the barrow wights recruited by Aragorn were the only thing that stopped the destruction of Minas Tirith.
Aside from that, the rest had VERY little impact.

As noted, this is false. Without Gimli, no Moria. Without Boromir, no split. Without Aragorn, no undead reinforcements (oh hey look, a PC recruiting NPCs to help solve a problem, what an unsatisfying story!) And without the other characters making a ruckus, would Gandalf's ploy have worked? Or would Sauron have seen a bunch of cannon fodder soldiers his orcs could handle and decided to hold back his Ringwraiths in Mordor where they could sniff out the ring? Or worse, simply flattened the army of Men in no time without the PCs there and then had enough time to look down?

PCs don't have to be carrying the macguffin themselves to be important. They just have to be the focus of the action, and that's exactly where Legolas, Aragorn et al. were.

[Barstro]

You know, something like that actually happened. Twenty two years later, the farmer won.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashrath_Manjhi

I will allude to the differences between digging a tunnel and tearing down an entire mountain while still marveling at that gentleman's tenacity. :smallwink:

[Arbane]

He keeps saying how he's looking forward to things returning to normal, completely oblivious to the fact that things will never, ever return to normal because of how profoundly he has screwed over his homeworld.



If you really want to get this point across, don't waste time hinting at it. Grab him by his shirt front and scream in his face "DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? THIS IS NORMAL NOW! THIS IS WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE FOREVER AND IT'S ALL
YOUR
FAULT!"
And then collapse weeping.

Whether this would be more effective in- or out-of-character I leave up to you.