Help with running Tomb of Horrors

[djreynolds]

Any advice is great.

My issues

1. The problem starts outs with leveling.

I have 6 players, 2 of whom are very good in all aspects, if I start them out any higher than 13 + the proficiency bonus is now +5 and +10 for expertise, not much in the way of failure there for experienced players who know when to spam bless and guidance and call forth assistance

One solution, because of the party size it to say the high end recommendation for level is 14, so say this is 4 man party basically 48 shared levels.

Since I have a 6 man party, could starting the PCs at 8th level be considered wrong.

Are six 8th level players able to conquer Tomb of Horrors without me throwing them too much help?

2. Any rogue, past 11th level on, can basically take a 10, with +4 to +5 with proficiency, the lowest roll is a 15. But with expertise its an 18 to 20 every time (not including ability modifiers either), and these players are sure to select the appropriate skills such as investigation, arcana, and history

3. I'm not sure, and I have downloaded all the versions of tombs of horror, but there isn't much fighting. Fine for me and players who like this stuff... some players will be bored or will have selected the wrong class. I will pre-warn the players

4. I read somewhere to just ban the dungeon delver feat, but of all the campaigns I've DM'd this seems the most appropriate time to grab this feat, and the same for observant, this is a feat made for Tomb of Horrors


Do I just up DCs to keep the game competitive and throw in random monsters or even another lost adventuring party? This could help to eat up resources of a party consisting of 11th level and up

It seems there is no real danger to long resting at all. Since this is the case do I make stuff like food and water a bigger deal? Make them spam create food and water, and even greater restoration to make up exhaustion.

My idea was to include an extra 3 elements to the campaign.

1. In order for the party members tackle the Tomb they had to beat several other groups of adventurers to win a coveted contract, nice because now I can use a jealous group that has followed them in and is shadowing them.

2. When they get there, there is a group of hobgoblins wanting to take over the tomb and call it home (fools), just to incorporate some mass combat

3. They find some lost NPCs, good and evil, in the tomb

[Malifice]

With such a large party, 8th level should be fine. The only problem is the Demilich itself. Its horde should contain an item that can destroy it (a macguffin sword or something that overcomes all its resistances and works in an AMF). You should also include a few items scattered about the place to keep them alive when they face him (a scroll of protection from undead, a suit of armor of necrotic resistance, an arrow of undead slaying etc).

My suggestions to fake them out/ increase difficulty:

1) Put them on the clock.

Have the PC's be hired to kill the demi-lich before midnight or else his millennia long grand ritual to shift the entire area into the Shadowfell will be complete, and hundreds of thousands will die. (The tomb itself is one giant arcane machine that Acerak uses to lure in powerful adventurers, slay them and then use their souls to power it and feed himself. A week ago, it finally obtained enough power to take out the whole surrounding 1000 miles and shunt it into the Shadowfell, turning Acerak into a God. Whomever hires the PC explains this to them, and he estimates they only have 12 hours time left after traveling the 20 miles to the swamp, to take him down before this happens). Have the NPC equip them all with cloaks that provide resistance to necrotic damage to give them a chance against the Demilich.

Should prove interesting if the fake out with the Glorified Zombie works (insert evil laugh).

Also have every short rest in or near the tomb past the second short rest have a 20 percent chance of attracting Demons (enough to be a Hard encounter for your 6 x 8th level PCs). This is true to the original (Acerak bound demons to the tomb to reset all the traps, repair any damage caused by adventurers and restock all the monsters). They're the custodians of the tomb.

Once the PCs get there, put them on the clock. As in; literally. Don't forget the 3 hours it takes to excavate each false entrance or hours spent digging out trapped PCs, or getting stuck in the first corridor. Count things down in real time as they debate what to do, and waste time messing about trying to figure out the traps and riddles. Actually have a stop watch going at the table. Remind them constantly of the time left.

Time pressure creates all kinds of fun.It also leads to PCs making rash decisions, and stops them from abusing the 5MWD.

2) Mix things up to catch them out. Some suggestions:

Have the real entrance corridor covered in anti magic (Aceraks magic nd the Demons magic is not affected)
Have the entrance chamber green devil face actually be a useful teleporter (although it also strips the PC of all items and dumps them in Aceraks lair). Have one of the devil faces later on contain the sphere - either the ones in the throne room, or insert another one at your leisure). This trap is one of the most infamous in DnD history and this will catch out any metagamers.
Have any attempt to teleport with an entrance or departure point in the tomb inflict 10d10 force damage, and have a 50 percent chance of summoning a bunch of Demons.
Increase all passive perception DCs of all traps and secret doors by 5. Actively searching for them (prodding with a 10' pole, examining the wall etc) lets the PC use investigation, at the stated lower Book DC.


3) Keep it old school:

Dont let them tell you what skills they are using. They are only allowed to tell you what they are doing, and you decide what skills are applicable (if any). None of this: 'I roll perception'. You want to be hearing : 'I cautiously approach the door, and glance through the keyhole to see if I an see any light or movement on the other side' or 'I press my hand to chest to see if it's warm'. They narrate their actions and you determine if a check is needed, and if so the skill and difficulty.

Remember, this sucker is as much about how you run it, as anything else.

[Beelzebubba]

If the characters are careful - i.e. poke and prod with 10' poles everywhere, don't just jump into things stupidly, take their time, be methodical - I don't think you need to be of terribly high level.

You only have to save vs. poison in a pit trap if you fall in.

The more brash they are, the higher level they will have to be.

[djreynolds]

Gentlemen thanks so much, lifesavers


This is awesome, I have one more week to prepare. I think they will be sad about starting at 8th, but it will prevent me from fudging DCs to be appropriate.

I really like the clock idea and time. From reading it, a high powered band could just take there time.

I want them, and I know 2 of them really go for the aesthetics portion of the game, to go ahead and discover stuff... but the idea of them being pressed for time will create some much needed urgency

I will definitely stress to them that every step is dangerous

And I like how you are using time as the adversary here, not just some monsters.

I was going to have another group in there with them, but this is better. You have say 12 hours to get to the lich and kill him.

Time is the ultimate enemy, good advice

They haven't rolled up characters yet, but I was thinking of pushing them towards the more skilled groups, but a strong fighter can leap very far and toss back a rope.

I love the Anti magic field

And yes section 7, the face and the sphere could ruin there day... possibly 10 minutes into the game if they choose the middle tunnel

[RedMage125]

You know there's an official 5e version of ToH, right?

It's the last adventure in Tales from the Yawning Portal. It doesn't list a recommended level, but says "only high level characters have a chance". Since all of the adventures in that book CAN be run sequentially, I would estimate it means level 14 is okay. So you should be able to go a few lower, since you've got 6 players.

Yes, there's a demilich in there, but there's also one in Dead in Thay, and that one ENDS at level 11.

ToH is less about making skill DCs (most are DC 20, just from a quick browse), and more about having creative solutions. There are traps that don't even make attack rolls or offer saving throws (tilting floor into lava). It just says if they get dipped in lava, they are dead. Things like that.

[2D8HP]

Don't let them tell you what skills they are using. They are only allowed to tell you what they are doing, and you decide what skills are applicable (if any). None of this: 'I roll perception'. You want to be hearing : 'I cautiously approach the door, and glance through the keyhole to see if I an see any light or movement on the other side' or 'I press my hand to chest to see if it's warm'. They narrate their actions and you determine if a check is needed, and if so the skill and difficulty.


I'd like to role-play a character instead of roll play a character sheet, but when I've advocated this play style at the
Player Responsibilities Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518145-Player-Responsibilities), I got a whole lotta pushback from DM's who said "that's too much work".

Sounds great but in my experience most DM's just won't let you play in an immersive style and insist on a mechanics style.

:frown:

[Grod_The_Giant]

My Tomb of Horrors advice?

Don't.

Seriously, don't. I played a few sessions of the 3.5 version, and it was absolutely miserable. There are two things that bring even the best games to a grinding halt: excessive paranoia and puzzles. Guess what Tomb of Horrors combines? Every puzzle takes five times longer than normal, because everyone is terrified to touch or experiment with anything for fear of instant death. It was agonizing. Just... just don't.


I'd like to role-play a character instead of roll play a character sheet, but when I've advocated this play style at the
Player Responsibilities Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518145-Player-Responsibilities), I got a whole lotta pushback from DM's who said "that's too much work".

Sounds great but in my experience most DM's just won't let you play in an immersive style and insist on a mechanics style.

:frown:
Really? I've had the opposite-- when players in my games/my friends' games say "I use Persuasion," we always try to make them say at least a little bit about what they're trying to do and how.

[djreynolds]

My Tomb of Horrors advice?

Don't.

Seriously, don't. I played a few sessions of the 3.5 version, and it was absolutely miserable. There are two things that bring even the best games to a grinding halt: excessive paranoia and puzzles. Guess what Tomb of Horrors combines? Every puzzle takes five times longer than normal, because everyone is terrified to touch or experiment with anything for fear of instant death. .

You are correct, after reading through 3 different versions of the game for ideas, it sounds like it could be miserable. But they choose the adventure

But as a DM I love this, as this group like the puzzle aspects.

The issue for me is the players want to run 13th level, as some are going away for the summer. And expertise at 13th is almost assured to beat most DCs without me fudging numbers

So I had an idea.

I was on sage advice and someone asked Chris Perkins

(((Eric Stabinsky))) ‎@vegetablz

.@ChrisPerkinsDnD A player in my CoS campaign has a 26 passive perception. Any advice to a DM with a PC who can detect practically anything?

Christopher Perkins ‎@ChrisPerkinsDnD
Take a cue from Call of Cthulhu: those who see all are sometimes the first to snap. Also see the madness rules in the DMG. #WOTCstaff https://twitter.com/vegetablz/status/838246149177950208 …

So I'm gonna try Malifice's idea and run the game in real time. I asked the players and they agreed.

They will have around 12-16 hours to complete this. Maybe 5-6 Wednesdays 2-3 hour sessions excluding combat, I'll run those numbers separate.

I will start players, all 7 of them at 13th level. I know the 7th level spells could cause some havoc for a DM and make this too easy. But there really is no time to rest.

They can rest, but if they fail to kill the lich... they die.

I'm allowing some power gaming here as last hurrah to some players... but I told them "what you begin with is it". If you need magic weapons.... someone needs the spell or there might be some items around (there will be some scattered around). So no magic gear otherwise handed out before hand

As for players with high passive perception, I'm going to include levels of "paranoia" if they fail saves. I'm making players feel they need to go back and recheck stuff if they fail a wisdom save, OCD. Or they spot stuff or enemies that may not be present... greater restoration needed (should make PCs more diligent with resources)

Perhaps having such a high perception check perhaps induces some madness.

I feel 7, 13th level PCs, mostly caster types should have enough spells to complete this. I will layer in some anti-magic areas and if they teleport or go ethereal then demons will be summoned.

One of the players is planning to use eldritch sight, which is cool, but perhaps this PC sees "too much".

[XmonkTad]

Perhaps having such a high perception check perhaps induces some madness.
...
One of the players is planning to use eldritch sight, which is cool, but perhaps this PC sees "too much".

The original ToH punished players for sticking their noses in things they shouldn't, and rewarded overly cautious play (with the exception of the "count backwards from 10" thing). There was a lot of instant no-save death. When it was reprinted for 3.5, now it punished poor choices, but mitigated things somewhat by allowing saves. While it's a fine choice to say "you see all the traps and it makes you crazy paranoid" I would be cautious about punishing optimization for trap-finding.

That being said, there are probably plenty of things in the tomb that register as "not a trap, just a friendly levitate pillar!" that as long as you keep a narrow definition of "trap" no skill checks are going to save them without common sense and ToH-induced paranoia. Let the paranoia grow organically!

[Lolzyking]

Perhaps If they roll so high on their perception they notice that tile which is obviously a trapped pressure plate looks exactly like a few other tiles around, now those tiles aren't traps, but you in your panicked state of mind, think they all are. This gives you as a dm, the ability to pick a few more "safe" spots in the layout, make the party think they are trapped eating away at their safe floor space.

[djreynolds]

The original ToH punished players for sticking their noses in things they shouldn't, and rewarded overly cautious play (with the exception of the "count backwards from 10" thing). There was a lot of instant no-save death. When it was reprinted for 3.5, now it punished poor choices, but mitigated things somewhat by allowing saves. While it's a fine choice to say "you see all the traps and it makes you crazy paranoid" I would be cautious about punishing optimization for trap-finding.

That being said, there are probably plenty of things in the tomb that register as "not a trap, just a friendly levitate pillar!" that as long as you keep a narrow definition of "trap" no skill checks are going to save them without common sense and ToH-induced paranoia. Let the paranoia grow organically!

Thank you, I will let it go organically. Good advice.

I'm not punishing him for optimization. I wanted his eldritch sight.... he might see ghosts or "past" adventurers in the Tomb.

Yes, trap and puzzle wise, the players will destroy me, they are that good.

So I wanted to throw a monkey wrench in their works, basically other things... adding a little "horror" element.

I want them to win, but they are fun role-players and they may like the madness or paranoia or past visions

What do you think?