So my druid dinged 12. Dragon Wild Shape or Cold Wild Shape...or something vanilla...

[Rerednaw]

Like Natural Bond?

For those who haven't read my other posts about the low wealth high lethal game we are in...
Typical Encounters are EL+5.
We usually lose 1-3 PCs per session.
At level 1 my core wizzie ran into 11 encounters over 4 days no sleep. Half of those encounters were when we are actively avoiding (sleeping up a tree, fleeing to base cap, improvising a raft downriver, inn in the capital city) encounters. After 5 sessions he was the only original PC. He died in session 11 as the record-holder for most sessions alive. Some players are on their 5th PC.
Until level 7, no NPC spell casting.
Magic shops pretty much don't exist (we finally bought a CLW wand for double price and the DM said he was doing us a favor by allowing a whole 30 charges of CLW).
Helpless PCs are typically CDG'd even at the expense of taking out other active PCs.

I rolled a VoP Druid as a replacement. To my surprise he's survived 6 sessions and we just hit 12.

I built him pretty vanilla. He's mostly wall of animal meat shield support, modest buffing, a couple of reincarnates.

The rest of the party (as of now):
Dragon Shaman (brand new and therefore has the best gear since he started with WBL). Melee build using G Mighty Wallop on his L Maul.
3rd party super custom archer fighter. (like moongoose 3rd party). Ranged threat to 30 and up to 6 AoO's. Clustered shots (or the 3.5 equiv of the Pathfinder feat)
Dragonfire Adept. Pretty much by the book. Waiting for 5 fold at L15, if she survives. This was her first time playing DND so after all the PC deaths I made her relatively self-sufficient and hard to kill.
Unoptimized melee Rogue (yes I know.)
Cleric Archer. Fairly optimized because I built him for ranged with Hank's Bow and Divine MM...but player is playing him as a melee gish.
Core Monk...now going Sacred Fist.

We usually have 3-4 PCs per session and we never really know who shows up other than the DM's wife (Monk), the fighter, myself (drood) and my friend (DFA). And a couple of DNPCs we have to take care of. DM balances for EL+5 with party of 6.

As much as I don't like engaging the cheese...dragon form sounds really cool. And it's S or M so I'm thinking it's not too bad...but frankly I've never played a druid with dragon wild shape so I wanted some input on it. Cold form...I really don't want the 12 headed cryohydra.

So I'm thinking Natural Bond and getting a Big Bird AC (my AC died in the first session played with the new toon from a CDG and we were not allowed any resting until we finished the entire dungeon)...until we got a new player join the game but no way to spend 24 hours for a new AC. Dragon form sounds fun, but I'd be seriously IMO stepping on the 2 other dragon types in the party.

Thoughts? This is the first game in 35 years where I'm finally able to have a dragon form...as opposed to Natural Bond. Part of me is going "never will have this chance again" vs. "don't want to step on other players toes"

Also is Dragon WS that bad? I guess the 150 flight is pretty dang cool...except we're always in confined spaces. The drood physical stats are fine outside of wild shape so he doesn't really need it...and he's more support caster than melee. Plus in this game melees die faster than anyone else.

[eggynack]

Frozen doesn't do much of anything until you get cryohydra, and if you don't even want cryohydra it doesn't even do anything at that point. It has forms associated, of course, but they're not especially good or interesting forms. The list associated with the feat is nearly complete. I think my handbook has the remaining couple that are worth looking at, but they're not especially worth a feat. Natural bond is alright. You're getting pretty high in level though, which reduces the utility of the feat in two separate ways. First, you're taking this feat when the animal companion is getting weaker, so buffing it isn't the best. Second, the bonuses have reduced marginal utility for a higher level animal companion. +2HD can represent like a 50% boost to HD early on, but by 12th level companions it is... not doing that. If you want a high level animal companion booster, you may be better off with companion spellbond. That feat increases the degree to which you can use spells to buff your animal companion, and spells are pretty good at doing that, so it's a solid deal.

So, dragon. Dragon is really good. Again, my handbook has a list. You should check it out. If you already have exalted wild shape, which you probably should if you have VoP, then you're getting less than you typically would (because blink dog and celestial animals are good forms already that compete for your attention), but it's still the best feat on your possibility list by a wide margin. It does much much more than just giving you some flight. Even at the baseline you're getting a bunch of immunities and a variety of movement modes, as well as some breath weapons. And don't forget vision modes. But with some knowledge, you get some really absurd stuff. True seeing, freedom of movement, gaseous form with casting access, shadow blend, earthquakes, invisibility, limited planar travel, all these things and more are available through dragon wild shape. It's a set of forms that works great with utility casting, because they tend to be more defensive and passive in nature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Cold Wild Shape is only worth it for Cryohydra, which you can't take until level 15 because it's huge.
Dragon Wild Shape isn't really a melee feat. Small and medium dragons are too small to really shine in melee.

DWS is something you take for:
1. Mobility: you get the highest fly speeds in the game, also good burrow and swim speeds.
2. Caster platform: small size, flight, high natural armor, cool special abilities make for an ideal caster platform.
3. Adaptability: every dragon comes with at least one energy immunity. Most get other abilities as well.
4. Ease of use: DWS is "only" the second-most powerful WS feat. Aberration WS is stronger. Dragon WS gives you (Ex) and (Su) abilities automatically though, AWS requires you to cast Enhance Wild Shape.
5. Utility: dragon forms come with lots of abilities. Rust breath, planar travel, invisibility, True Seeing, Tongues, there's a lot of good stuff around if you go book diving.
I suggest a look at Eggynack's Druid Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook). It has a very comprehensive list of dragon forms and what they grant.


Natural Bond isn't really worth it. Level 12 is about where the animal companion starts to fall behind anyway, so it's not an optimal use of your feats.

[MuyMalo]

I second or third dragon wild shape, if for no other reason for Mercury dragon to help your character fly away from the crazy lethality. Seriously is your DM new, or just sadistic? It is it the intent to have a lethal campaign (no judgement here, sometimes it's fun)?

[Rerednaw]

I second or third dragon wild shape, if for no other reason for Mercury dragon to help your character fly away from the crazy lethality. Seriously is your DM new, or just sadistic? It is it the intent to have a lethal campaign (no judgement here, sometimes it's fun)?

Actually it's fighting the Borg. I rolled my gf a DFA with fire...next session we're fighting fire-immune and resist. She picks up cold breath...and we're fighting fire AND cold resist the very next battle....she just picked up sonic...fortunately not very many sonic immune...but we're waiting for them to arrive.

That said...the only reason we're still playing is the group is cool for the most part and the story is interesting...now granted I'm not keen on a party that feels like they are about as important as Jimmy the Hot Dog vendor (uh nope he doesn't exist just making this up :) in NY city during the Chitauri invasion (Avengers) BUT there aren't any powerful NPCs either, well cept for whomever we fight. And at the end of the day, the surviving PCs are managing to advance the save the world storyline, even if the journey is liberally paved in their predecessor's corpses.

I think I've answered my own question...if we're fighting the Borg "We've got to let them know that we can adapt too..."-Riker. Guess more Wild Shapes for the win. :)

[Bronk]

My advice is the same as in your last thread: Take the Exalted Companion feat, get a celestial fleshraker for your companion, have it also take Vow of Poverty, then at least Touch of Golden Ice (be sure your DM understands the DC scales) and rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike feats. In battle, take on fleshraker form, cast 'venomfire' on yourself, be sure to share the spell with your companion, and go from there.

You keep running out of Wild Shapes, so stay in fleshraker form all day. At this level, you should only need two Wild Shapes for that. It might be annoying not to be able to speak (not being able to acquire or use a pearl of speech because of your vow, and also your DM) but it sounds like you're usually fighting anyway.

Conserve your spells for 'venomfire', and for emergencies. Summoning isn't working for you, so just save them for SNAs that call up something useful, like a unicorn for healing.

[Rerednaw]

My advice is the same as in your last thread: Take the Exalted Companion feat, get a celestial fleshraker for your companion, have it also take Vow of Poverty, then at least Touch of Golden Ice (be sure your DM understands the DC scales) and rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike feats. In battle, take on fleshraker form, cast 'venomfire' on yourself, be sure to share the spell with your companion, and go from there.

You keep running out of Wild Shapes, so stay in fleshraker form all day. At this level, you should only need two Wild Shapes for that. It might be annoying not to be able to speak (not being able to acquire or use a pearl of speech because of your vow, and also your DM) but it sounds like you're usually fighting anyway.

Conserve your spells for 'venomfire', and for emergencies. Summoning isn't working for you, so just save them for SNAs that call up something useful, like a unicorn for healing.
Yes tried that. It worked fairly well for a little while. The exalted companion lasted one fight of delightful cheese. Then it was 6 double advanced cloakers -> helpless -> CDG. DM doesn't want me to have another Dino AC. He's perfectly fine with casters front-lining, but not keen on AC's doing so. I will state that summoning did end up helping out...all those one hit kills went to summons and not PCs :)

Wait Touch of Golden Ice scales? Since when? I thought it was a flat DC 14.

[Bronk]

Yes tried that. It worked fairly well for a little while. The exalted companion lasted one fight of delightful cheese. Then it was 6 double advanced cloakers -> helpless -> CDG. DM doesn't want me to have another Dino AC. He's perfectly fine with casters front-lining, but not keen on AC's doing so. I will state that summoning did end up helping out...all those one hit kills went to summons and not PCs :)

Wait Touch of Golden Ice scales? Since when? I thought it was a flat DC 14.

It does, although it often brings out a bit of an argument.

It looks like it doesn't at first, because the feat references the ravage chapter for effects, and the chapter includes a table with a static DC.

However, using the rules that determine the order of rule precedence (summarized by 'text trumps table'):

The feat is exalted, exalted feats are supernatural, and supernatural abilities follow the rules listed here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities

which state:


The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

So, there you go. Again, people can get worked up over this, but it should fit into your game as well as any.

Also, I'm sorry your DM nerfed your animal companion! Maybe go with a Tressym? They're offered in Sandstorm as a first level companion, referencing the FRCS write-up. They're pretty neat! Basically a flying house cat, except that they have Int 12, which can be useful out of combat. (Plus, it would also be able to take Vow of Poverty...)

[Vaz]

Aberrant Wild Shape.

@Bronk; it's also a rule where Specific Trumps General. It's specific that Touch of Golden Ice has a DC of 14; not a DC worked out using the typical maths. I've not really got a problem with it not scaling as it makes it a more useful feat, but even so. People getting worked up over it is usually because the person in the incorrect point of view continuing to be stubborn over the most simple answer, I find.

[Bronk]

Aberrant Wild Shape.

@Bronk; it's also a rule where Specific Trumps General. It's specific that Touch of Golden Ice has a DC of 14; not a DC worked out using the typical maths. I've not really got a problem with it not scaling as it makes it a more useful feat, but even so. People getting worked up over it is usually because the person in the incorrect point of view continuing to be stubborn over the most simple answer, I find.

That didn't take long!

Here are the full rules for primary sources... they fit better than the text vs table thing anyway:

The main bit is at the end where the primary source for supernatural abilities is the Monster Manual.


Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

The idea here is that the table entry for Golden Ice lists some information about the ravage. However, since the feat is supernatural, the Monster Manual is the primary source, and the DC is overwritten. The rest of the table entry isn't superseded by anything in the Monster Manual and is unchanged.

[Vaz]

You're welcome. Care to address points raised, or still content to be wrong?

[Bronk]

You're welcome. Care to address points raised, or still content to be wrong?

I added it to my last post. I've been through this before and I'm not going to get into it more here. There are multiple sets of rules that show this, but last time the argument went on for pages and gave me heartburn.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's actually another option if your DM allows retraining.
The City-Shape ACF from the Cityscape WE.

Notably its ability to take swarm shape at level 12.
Swarms have a number of advantages, like being immune to single-target spells and being able to no-action attack (+ nauseate) just by moving into the enemies space.
You can take animal- and vermin swarms normally, but with Enhance Wild Shape you can also take plant swarms.

Like, say, the Dread Blossom Swarm (MM3).
60ft(good) flight, plant traits (immunity to mind-affecting, polymorph, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning and critical hits), swarm traits (half damage from piercing & slashing, immune to single-target spells or spells that target a specific amount of creatures, trip, grapple & bull rush), Regeneration 5/Fire or cold, a free action nauseating attack, a constant 15ft radius paralyzing poison cloud and a 1d6 Con damage Blood Drain attack tacked on to your normal swarm attack.
That's a pretty potent defensive caster form in my opinion.

Normally it's not worth losing huge shapes, but to get those you have to survive till level 15. And you can still get them anyway with Megalodon Empowerment. It'll just cost you a spell.

I've had some real success playing a swarm druid in a semi-long running campaign. I'd definitely recommend giving it a try if you haven't yet.

[Crake]

I'd vote for dragon wild shape, simply for the giant amount of utility it brings. You get everything from blindsense, 120ft darkvision, 4x lowlight, before taking into account the forms themselves. You have access to practically every kind of immunity you would ever need, including various planar effects by means of transforming into planar dragons, then there's also useful things like the deep dragon's constant true seeing, the useful breath weapons like the pyroclastic dragon's save or die disintegration, the chaos dragon's immunity to compulsions, and so on.

If you're looking for combat effectiveness, then maybe get a rod of rapid spell, a ring of the beast, and start spamming summons, while using your wildshape for defense and utility.

[GrayDeath]

Dragon! How can you even ask!?



Now that my eternally Dragon-admiring inner Kid has had its say, I support the Dragon Form. Because simply put it offers a lot of power and a buckload of Utility. (And its cool....or hot? Acidic?....ehm...)

[ATHATH]

There's actually another option if your DM allows retraining.
The City-Shape ACF from the Cityscape WE.

Notably its ability to take swarm shape at level 12.
Swarms have a number of advantages, like being immune to single-target spells and being able to no-action attack (+ nauseate) just by moving into the enemies space.
You can take animal- and vermin swarms normally, but with Enhance Wild Shape you can also take plant swarms.

Like, say, the Dread Blossom Swarm (MM3).
60ft(good) flight, plant traits (immunity to mind-affecting, polymorph, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning and critical hits), swarm traits (half damage from piercing & slashing, immune to single-target spells or spells that target a specific amount of creatures, trip, grapple & bull rush), Regeneration 5/Fire or cold, a free action nauseating attack, a constant 15ft radius paralyzing poison cloud and a 1d6 Con damage Blood Drain attack tacked on to your normal swarm attack.
That's a pretty potent defensive caster form in my opinion.

Normally it's not worth losing huge shapes, but to get those you have to survive till level 15. And you can still get them anyway with Megalodon Empowerment. It'll just cost you a spell.

I've had some real success playing a swarm druid in a semi-long running campaign. I'd definitely recommend giving it a try if you haven't yet.
The problem is, if he just takes City-Shape for the Dread Blossom Swarm (or other swarms), everyone and their mother will suddenly gain AoE fire and/or cold attacks, be immune to nausea, be immune to poison, and be immune to CON damage.

Meanwhile, Dragon Wildshape will give the OP a wide variety of decent options, which means that even if one form is countered, he can just switch to another.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem is, if he just takes City-Shape for the Dread Blossom Swarm (or other swarms), everyone and their mother will suddenly gain AoE fire and/or cold attacks, be immune to nausea, be immune to poison, and be immune to CON damage.

Meanwhile, Dragon Wildshape will give the OP a wide variety of decent options, which means that even if one form is countered, he can just switch to another.

You can still take Dragon Wild Shape. City Shape is an ACF, not a feat.
The only real downside is that it delays large forms to 15 and requires you to cast Megalodon Empowerment to get huge forms at all.
That's generally a problem because a lot of good druid forms are large and some of the best forms are huge, but it doesn't matter at all if you use Dragon Wild Shape anyway.

You can also overcome the biggest drawbacks of the Dread Blossom Swarm with two castings of Energy Immunity.
Even if everything is immune to your forms attacks you'll still have all the other immunities (most notably the immunity to single-target spells), making for a very potent caster form.

[PrismCat21]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned by you or anyone else, I'm going to suggest Natural Spell. :)

I don't know if you already have it, but you did mention you're more of a spellcaster in this party. So just in case, I felt it was worth bringing up. :elan:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned by you or anyone else, I'm going to suggest Natural Spell. :)

I don't know if you already have it, but you did mention you're more of a spellcaster in this party. So just in case, I felt it was worth bringing up. :elan:

Wait, i'm confused... There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html):smallbiggrin:

[Rerednaw]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned by you or anyone else, I'm going to suggest Natural Spell. :)

I don't know if you already have it, but you did mention you're more of a spellcaster in this party. So just in case, I felt it was worth bringing up. :elan:

VoP strongheart halfling drood with flaws:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1179680

And yes I did take Natural Spell.

Went with Dragon Shape. Now we have 3 Dragons in the party (Shaman, Adept, and myself).

For my replacement Animal Companion, went with Dire Eagle (celestial/exalted) with VoP as well, but frankly Tweety is a taxi, keeping him out of combat as best as I can.

Dragon have more cool points!

[eggynack]

You can take animal- and vermin swarms normally, but with Enhance Wild Shape you can also take plant swarms.
I don't think this is accurate. City-shape doesn't grant access to swarms that match whatever forms you can otherwise take. It specifically lets you, "Transform into an animal- or vermin-based swarm." Thus, you'd have plant forms, and also animal and vermin swarms, as separate entities. Similarly, you wouldn't be able to transform into an elementite swarm at 15th, even though you can turn into elementals and animal/vermin swarms alike.

Edit: Probably definitely absolutely should have picked up exalted wild shape at 8th. That feat is some sweet business.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think this is accurate. City-shape doesn't grant access to swarms that match whatever forms you can otherwise take. It specifically lets you, "Transform into an animal- or vermin-based swarm." Thus, you'd have plant forms, and also animal and vermin swarms, as separate entities. Similarly, you wouldn't be able to transform into an elementite swarm at 15th, even though you can turn into elementals and animal/vermin swarms alike.

Enhance Wild Shape adds the ability to take plant forms with your wild shape. I'd argue that that applies to swarm shapes as well since it's part of your wild shape.

It's different from Elemental Wild Shape because Enhance WS adds to your normal wild shape ability, Elemental WS is a completely separate ability that just uses the same mechanics.

[eggynack]

Enhance Wild Shape adds the ability to take plant forms with your wild shape. I'd argue that that applies to swarm shapes as well since it's part of your wild shape.
Swarm shapes aren't part of your wild shape though, is my point. You don't just get swarms as some kinda modifier to your wild shape capacity. You get these two specific and explicit types of swarms.

[RedMage125]

I am currently running an Age of Worms game (party just hit 20 before last session). The druid/wizard/Arcane Heirophant took Dragon Wild Shape.

I restricted him to the core 10 dragon types on the basis that anything else was too rare (although now that they've encountered a Fang Dragon, that's on the table). Even so restricted, he's gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

Speed has been mentioned, and I don't know if I missed it, but I don't think anyone mentioned dragons' senses. Darkvision, Low-light vision and Blindsense. Also, dragons can cast spells, so you don't need Natural Spell. Blindsense still means invisible creatures can sneak attack you, but you know what square they are in (unless they have a means of foiling blindsense), so you know where to target the faerie fire or the dispel magic if you have invisible enemies.

Copper dragons can Spider Climb at will as a Supernatural ability, and Silver dragons are immune to TWO energy types, and bronze dragons have water breathing and a swim speed, so those types alone make the feat worth it.

[Gnaeus]

I would only add that cold wild shape isn't only for cryohydra. Urskan form is a large humanoid with reach and a language and natural attacks who can use most gear without argument and has great stats. Not arguing with the dragon fans, it's a great feat. But I do like Armored Bear wild Shape a lot.

[eggynack]

I would only add that cold wild shape isn't only for cryohydra. Urskan form is a large humanoid with reach and a language and natural attacks who can use most gear without argument and has great stats. Not arguing with the dragon fans, it's a great feat. But I do like Armored Bear wild Shape a lot.
It doesn't seem like a bad form, but there's not much all that special to it. Aside from weapon use, this doesn't seem to increase your item access over standard animal forms, and I don't think you get the fancy armor when you wild shape. Only really interesting thing is that you can probably go without natural spell with urskan, as long as you can access a material component pouch. Beyond that, is it really much burlier than whatever animal forms you can use at 9th? On its own, it doesn't seem worth a feat, and it's mostly on its own until you get cryohydra.

[Gnaeus]

It doesn't seem like a bad form, but there's not much all that special to it. Aside from weapon use, this doesn't seem to increase your item access over standard animal forms, and I don't think you get the fancy armor when you wild shape. Only really interesting thing is that you can probably go without natural spell with urskan, as long as you can access a material component pouch. Beyond that, is it really much burlier than whatever animal forms you can use at 9th? On its own, it doesn't seem worth a feat, and it's mostly on its own until you get cryohydra.

Burlier? No. But it can clearly wear armor. Use rods/Wanda etc. I don't think there's much question that you can go without natural spell. It's the best humanoid shape I've seen. I think it has a clear role in some campaigns. Most especially ones where wildling clasps and similar are hard to access and where you might want to be able to speak in combat. It's not the best form for melee. But it's a fantastic form for a caster Druid who wants to make an occasional AOO or not fear enemy grapplers while using gear. An ape can't use a wand. Even a dragon may be an uphill fight with some dms about which slots it can access. Urskan is clearly a tool using humanoid who can use anything a large human can use. It's not a bear. It's a humanoid bear. All the difference in the world.

[ATHATH]

Burlier? No. But it can clearly wear armor. Use rods/Wanda etc. I don't think there's much question that you can go without natural spell. It's the best humanoid shape I've seen. I think it has a clear role in some campaigns. Most especially ones where wildling clasps and similar are hard to access and where you might want to be able to speak in combat. It's not the best form for melee. But it's a fantastic form for a caster Druid who wants to make an occasional AOO or not fear enemy grapplers while using gear. An ape can't use a wand. Even a dragon may be an uphill fight with some dms about which slots it can access. Urskan is clearly a tool using humanoid who can use anything a large human can use. It's not a bear. It's a humanoid bear. All the difference in the world.
Can't you just take the (quite good) Fangshield(s?) substitution levels and pick up Humanoid Wild Shape?

EDIT: Wait, nevermind, Urskans aren't Humanoids. Humanoid Wild Shape still does most of what an Urskan does (and more!), though.

[Cavir]

Check out my extended signature (spoilered below) for charts I did covering Dragon Wild Shape options. eggynack's handbook is awesome and I used it a lot. These charts are just more condensed. The game I did that for only lasted a few rounds but hopefully they can be useful for others. My character Jaszak also listed there was for that game, which had an unusual gestalt setup. Multimorph from Warshaper + Dragon Wild Shape = lots of potential fun.