Help me make some dragons special

[WarKitty]

So the story-line I'm running is that dragons are essentially evil demi-gods. My part is currently level 11 mythic 1, but I expect they'll at least hit mythic 2 at the end of the current dungeon, if not level to 12 as well. Given the world they live in, the players should essentially be considered demi-gods or at least superheroes. Officially they're the "chosen ones of fate" or something like that.

What I want to do is make dragons a little extra-special in some way, to make the players feel like they're fighting gods and not just monsters. Make them different from just another powerful spellcasting monster. Any advice?

[ATHATH]

This is for 3.5, but even if you're not playing 3.PF, you can still probably port some stuff over:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by WarKitty
What I want to do is make dragons a little extra-special in some way, to make the players feel like they're fighting gods and not just monsters. Make them different from just another powerful spellcasting monster.

Are there cities, nations, cults which worship them?

Dragon-worshipping elves is a thought that just came to mind. Deities have followers, and flocks of minions at their command. A flying army of elves riding dragonkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragonkin/) could be a good first wave to deal with.

[WarKitty]

Are there cities, nations, cults which worship them?

Dragon-worshipping elves is a thought that just came to mind. Deities have followers, and flocks of minions at their command. A flying army of elves riding dragonkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragonkin/) could be a good first wave to deal with.

The story is that they were long-fallen gods whose worship had died out with the ancient evil empire. But now their ancient overlord begins to awaken, and he speaks in the minds of certain individuals, leading to the founding of cults to try to release his draconic followers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One of the monster manuals (I want to say 5?) had rules for "Dragons of the Great Game" or some such thing. They traded spellcasting for a bunch of more conventionally draconic stuff- tail lashes, wing gusts, energy auras, etc- but you could use it as a straight addition to add a little more flavor to the fight.

[Sun Elemental]

At the bare minimum, give all kinds of dragons the ability scores of a Gold Dragon of the appropriate age, a Gold's Sorcerer spellcasting progression, and the water breathing and Shapeshifting of a Bronze. Oh, and access to Cleric spells that they use as Sorcerers like a Gold can.
Now even a White or Black can be a menacing enemy!
God that sounds weird when taken out of context.
Also if you're using 3.5, consider looking at the Pathfinder versions and grabbing their abilities, they're very flavorful and help distinguish between dragon types that breath the same energy type.

For something completely different, let dragons be martial powerhouses. Swap out spellcasting levels for Tome of Battle initiator levels, probably Warblade. Or Path of War from Pathfinder. Or give them both, spellcasting and initiating.

What I getting at is, treat a dragon as the best boss battle you can think of. Let it do things that can't easily be duplicated by a high level spell or maneuver.


Phase 1 can be in human shape, the party might not know what they're up against if they don't have True Seeing active. Phase 2 is transforming back to dragon shape. (As a free action.)


If there any non-dragon-worshipping creatures nearby, they should be fleeing or being killed by a breath weapon (but not in a way that wastes an action for the dragon).


If the party is in a building, the dragon will utterly collapse it with no effort (creating difficult terrain, but not for the dragon). If they're not on the ground floor, they'll have to handle some falling damage too.


Perhaps a collapsing wall splits the battlefield in half, inconveniencing the party (the dragon can easily smash through as part of attacking or moving).

[atemu1234]

One of the monster manuals (I want to say 5?) had rules for "Dragons of the Great Game" or some such thing. They traded spellcasting for a bunch of more conventionally draconic stuff- tail lashes, wing gusts, energy auras, etc- but you could use it as a straight addition to add a little more flavor to the fight.

Xorvintaal, MMV, IIRC.

[ATHATH]

Xorvintaal, MMV, IIRC.
This is in the handbook that I linked, by the way. There was another thing that swapped out something for Warblade maneuvers or somesuch that was in the handbook as well, IIRC.

[WarKitty]

I'm not really looking for something that just changes them up or just adds abilities that other monsters they've faced already have. I'm looking for something that really makes them stand out as unique, special monsters, not just another encounter to be destroyed. Something that would make them gods and not simply monsters. It doesn't necessarily have to be more challenging than a monster of an appropriate CR, just something that stands out.

Sun Elemental, that was helpful, thanks

[atemu1234]

This is in the handbook that I linked, by the way. There was another thing that swapped out something for Warblade maneuvers or somesuch that was in the handbook as well, IIRC.

Sovereign Archetypes for Dragons are from Dragons of Eberron, page 30.

[ATHATH]

I'm not really looking for something that just changes them up or just adds abilities that other monsters they've faced already have. I'm looking for something that really makes them stand out as unique, special monsters, not just another encounter to be destroyed. Something that would make them gods and not simply monsters. It doesn't necessarily have to be more challenging than a monster of an appropriate CR, just something that stands out.

Sun Elemental, that was helpful, thanks
Mythic ranks? Templates?

[WarKitty]

Mythic ranks? Templates?

Eh...I'm not sure extra abilities are really what I'm looking for, unless they're something spectacular enough that they wouldn't make sense to have on a random encounter monster of similar CR.

[ATHATH]

Eh...I'm not sure extra abilities are really what I'm looking for, unless they're something spectacular enough that they wouldn't make sense to have on a random encounter monster of similar CR.
Phrenic and Half-Fey are pretty nice.

[ViperMagnum357]

Well, I wrote this out without checking your party level :smallsigh:, but my points stand-this is what I do to make high level Dragon encounters special, since I think they should be the best of a campaign. Pick and choose what you want from this and the true dragon handbook.

You can Advance them to the Advanced Great Wyrm age category from the ELH: once they hit Colossal+ they get a big boost in effectiveness, with extra speed and reach to go with the damage. Give them elite ability scores or possibly something bonkers like 18/18/16/16/14/14, or even 18/18/18/16/16/16, and Gestalt them with the Dragon Ascendant and Hidecarved Dragon PRCs to put their abilities more on par with their HD. Give them the ArchDragon Template from DMG 321. That gives them Polymorph and mind influencing effect immunities, plus True Seeing. The aura and breath weapon additions are potent and flavorful; for pure power, go Lawful-minimizing damage in an aura is iffy, but adding a personal AMF to its breath weapon that persists for 1d4 rounds on each victim is the kind of legendary power that will make them rightly feared.

I put these all together to create my own versions of the Dragon Overlords from Krynn, with a more functional build than straight racial HD. Then I added the Corrupt template to make them Lawful Evil, and added 2 levels of Dragon Ravager PRC from the Revised Bestiary of Krynn-that reduces the base breath weapon cooldown from 1d4 to 1d3, and add in Rapid Breath and Recover Breath-the Dragon can breath every other round when you do not use a metabreath feat. Worked very well-add in Flyby attack, a pile of breath weapon feats, Snatch/Multigrab/Improved Multigrab, and a couple copies of Multispell/Automatic Quicken Spell, and you have a Dragon that can grab a few pieces of choice gear and reliably solo most level appropriate optimized parties, provided no Pun-Pun loops or Locate city bombs.

[Grand Arbiter]

One second....
*ducks behind counter*

*rummages through virtual boxes, sending papers flying*

*pops up with link*

I believe this could be of potential interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169209-30-New-Dragons-(more-true-dragons-than-the-draconomicon)) It's a massive dragon homebrew project by Zaydos, (one of the best homebrewers on the board, imho), with over a hundred different dragons. A one-of-a-kind dragon would be a rather special encounter, no?

[Particle_Man]

Maybe borrow the idea from 5th edition about legendary monsters changing the area that they exist in (so the Red Dragon merely being in the area makes a mountain into a volcano, for instance).

Also have one of the Great Dragons be unusually fecund and possessive/territorial, so that every living creature (and I mean every single one - animals, vermin, treants, oozes, etc. included) within a certain radius of its base is a half-dragon of its type, descended from that Great Dragon. All loyal to their Draconic parent, of course.

[ViperMagnum357]

Something else from Dragonlance: The Dragon Overlords used Skull Totems not only to increase their power, but to alter their domains for hundreds of square miles around their lairs to match their natural habitat. I am not talking about just some temperature variance-permanent ice age, raising volcanic ranges out of rolling plains, turning a shallow sea or forest into a continent sized swamp, or abrading a mountain range in a lightning-stormwracked desert. I think the rules are in the Age of Mortals book, but I dunno about a direct port: very few setting have as many true dragons as Krynn, so the draconic cannibalism may need a refluffing.

[ATHATH]

Don't forget to circle strafe!

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-circle-strafe/

[ArendK]

Having run Mythic a fair amount, here's my two cents.

Make the dragons scary, yes. More mythic, more casting, etc. etc. Minions are also good; especially if they are scary.

But the best instrument to be scary and give a different feel? Use the environment and make that terrifying. Got a red dragon? Make an exceptionally high volcano; smoke obscures vision for all but the dragon and its minions, spits lava right at the party, it's harder to breath just due to elevation, gigantic chunks of lava filled rocks fall from the sky (an open portal to the plane of fire?)

White? Frozen lake. The longer the party stands in one place, the ice drain their heat and begin thinning faster and faster. Not wanting to drown in the frozen lake is always a concern, and a simple fireball spell will give any party not all flying something else to think about.

Black? Too much awesomeness from a twisted swamp. Plant based tentacles try to drag the party underwater and drown them; gas bubbles form near the party that react explosively when mixed with the dragons acid; the very air is toxic requiring poison saves/hallucinations/anything else you imagine.

Make the terrain as big an enemy as the dragon.

[Dagroth]

Phrenic is ridiculously amazing on a Dragon because PLAs use the PP=HD for the effect. A 40 HD dragon is doing frankly amazing things with their PLAs. So much so, that if there's some way you can get more uses out of them it's totally worth it.

[WhamBamSam]

Archdragon (Dragon Magazine 321) is pretty spiffy and seems to fit the idea you're going for. All varieties except Good are very powerful, I'd say more than is appropriate, for CR+1, but it sounds like that might be a selling point in this case.

Dragon Psychoses (Dragon Magazine 313) with maybe a little refluffing could also fit well.

Sovereign Archetypes, which others have mentioned are always good for customizing dragons.

I'm fond of familiars (either Improved ones or standard ones for larger than normal casters) on older dragons with casting, since they take advantage of high HD, BAB, and the like. Might be a good way for a dragon deity to get a herald/avatar.

[Dagroth]

Archdragon (Dragon Magazine 321) is pretty spiffy and seems to fit the idea you're going for. All varieties except Good are very powerful, I'd say more than is appropriate, for CR+1, but it sounds like that might be a selling point in this case.

Dragon Psychoses (Dragon Magazine 313) with maybe a little refluffing could also fit well.

Sovereign Archetypes, which others have mentioned are always good for customizing dragons.

I'm fond of familiars (either Improved ones or standard ones for larger than normal casters) on older dragons with casting, since they take advantage of high HD, BAB, and the like. Might be a good way for a dragon deity to get a herald/avatar.

A really old Dragon could take "Draconic Familiar" and make their own child their familiar... which would boost the heck out of the kid's HP! Plus, you know, "Share Spells".

[atemu1234]

Phrenic is ridiculously amazing on a Dragon because PLAs use the PP=HD for the effect. A 40 HD dragon is doing frankly amazing things with their PLAs. So much so, that if there's some way you can get more uses out of them it's totally worth it.

Granted, it can also turn them into TPKs. You win some, you lose some.

[Dagroth]

Phrenic is ridiculously amazing on a Dragon because PLAs use the PP=HD for the effect. A 40 HD dragon is doing frankly amazing things with their PLAs. So much so, that if there's some way you can get more uses out of them it's totally worth it.


Granted, it can also turn them into TPKs. You win some, you lose some.

True enough... but the OP wanted "God Dragons".

[Gruftzwerg]

I would also recommend the heavy use of templates. Archdragons as mentioned are really good for this. Dragon Psychosis can give some more individuality.

Dunno how far you have set your storyline, but Skeletal/Lich Dragons (Undead) could be nice plot start. The Dragons have died out and only a few Undead Dragons remained. They will than obtain a powerful artifact (in a race with the PC party which they should win by a small bargain) to resurrect all (un-/)dead dragons to call out "the new age of the dragons". From there you start your main plot.

[Bucky]

Let's see, you want something that...
* Can be added to existing dragons
* Suitable for a boss battle
* Balanced against a 12/2 mythic party
* Unique per dragon
* Feels epic

Is that right? If so, I have a suggestion.

One of the problems with a boss battle is action economy. The players get to do more stuff than the dragon and can potentially overwhelm it by trading actions. So I'd suggest an option that lets the dragon do more stuff - a Swift or Immediate action, a passive reaction or a 1/round Free action. A 1/round Free action would feel most epic, if it felt it belonged on the boss.

Conveniently, one of a dragon's signature abilities, the breath weapon, is linked to something most creatures do for free, breathing. You can build on this by giving the boss dragons an alternative mode for their breath weapons. They have an ability that is thematically linked to their breath weapon that they can use once per round at no action cost if they don't use their main breath weapon. For best effect, it should hinder the PCs' actions in addition to doing a bit of damage.

For example, an acid-breathing dragon might be able to blow a cloud of noxious gas - blocking vision, dealing acid damage and Nauseating on a failed save, and hanging around for a few rounds.

Or an ice-breathing dragon might blow a large volume of snow - they fill an area, dealing cold damage to anything between them and the snowbank and forcing anyone in the target area to save or be immobilized until they take the time to dig themselves out.

This sort of ability lets the dragon engage several party members at once, interfering with one for free while using their actions on another.

[WarKitty]

Next problem: making sure the party can't lock down the dragon.

The biggest problem I see is the druid. I expect the first thing he'll do is start conjuring up a storm. The dragon needs some way to beat that.

Does freedom of movement work on storms?

[Rerednaw]

Special to me means story, not just stats.

Anyone can make a dragon into "rocks fall you die."

Spread rumors about mysterious threats, hidden secrets, ancient enemies awakening. Avoid using dragons as mooks, when they finally make their appearance it should be an earth shattering event...the air warps around them and the earth itself seems to groan under the weight of their presence. He roars and windows shatter for miles around.

If a dragon is subtle, it should be beyond the norm...the raindrops suddenly slow down in an area as gravity itself is twisted...and that is all that reveals one passing by. That and a chill over your soul. No rush of wind or flapping of wings, that's too prosaic.

Make slaying a true dragon require some critical sacrifice. Like Sacred Vow-like consequences.

Perhaps there is a court of dragons, but to deliver a final blow...you cannot slay each one the same way. The dragons share a collective consciousness, their own version of the Akashic records (or perhaps the true version) An sword strike for one means the next one becomes immune to blades. An arrow for the next means now they are immune to both. And so on.

Or perhaps to overcome a true dragon's immortality it must be forced to become mortal first...how? Make it feel and care as a mortal does and now you have a choice to let him / her live or slay and betray your new friend...because there is no place for their kind in your world anymore.

Or perhaps the dragon keeps it's mortality hidden in a safe place, like a lich's phylactery...or perhaps necromancers learned/stole the secret from the dragons...and a phylactery requires a dragon's heart, so an evil necromancer lich-wannabe will help you...for a price.

Anyway whatever works for you.

[The Insanity]

Make them rare. Like, one in the entire campaign. There, now they're "special" without changing any stats.
You're welcome.

[Mordaedil]

Have the dragons fight to their strengths, not their weaknesses. Have them fly, breath on the fly-by attacks and never engage in melee combat. And they should always being moving in and out of the range for a caster.

[WarKitty]

Make them rare. Like, one in the entire campaign. There, now they're "special" without changing any stats.
You're welcome.

There's already more plot to it than that - basically an ancient race of dragon deities that haven't been seen for millennia are waking up.

[WarKitty]

Don't forget to circle strafe!

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-circle-strafe/

I have to say, having watched this video, Counter Monkey's party is very low op. A level 10 party where you don't have every party member with either flight abilities or multiple long-range spells? A wizard whose best option is to cast magic missile? Sure, the dragon is going to stay in the air, but that's not going to be a serious hindrance to a well-optimized party that knows they're going up against a dragon.