How to deal with an OP Controlling Character?

[VisionsOfGlory]

Hi,

I'm having an issue with another player. He's playing a bard and has 'optimised' his character to the point he has the highest HP, AC and the high saves. He's controlling the party because the likelihood is that he could kill them. He isn't allowing other characters to be themselves and often encroaches on other people's territory.

We're all vaguely evil, so killing him wouldn't be unlikely but I've stated before he could probably kill us. If I was DMing, I'd just kill his character but the DM is too nice. Any suggestions?

He's got another player on his side as that player, for lack of a better word, is a sheep.

[Armored Walrus]

This is not a D&D question. It's a human relations question.

Talk to him like an adult.

[VisionsOfGlory]

He threatens to kill characters, thanks for the suggestion though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why play his game? That's clearly what he wants. Instead, approach the DM about the situation, and ask the other players their feelings about his behavior. I assume there's more then then the four (DM, Bard, Bard's Friend and you).

Even if you don't have numbers, tell them directly (but politely) and upfront that he's not making the game fun. It's really not that hard to play an evil character AND work together OR just not do stuff that pisses off other players. He could just as easily RP not being micromanaging because he's got good minions teammates or something like that.

If he refuses to change, leave. People like that are either too wrapped up in themselves or too amused by annoying others to really change if told upfront. There's not a lot of point in wasting your time trying to change a jerk when you could bail and get or make an awesomer group.

He threatens to kill your character? Let him before walking away.

Good luck!

[VisionsOfGlory]

There's not a lot of point in wasting your time trying to change a jerk when you could bail and get or make an awesomer group.



Thanks for the suggestion!

I really would like to walk away but I'm stuck in that unfortunate circle of that I DM for that group as well and my boyfriend is also part of it. I will try what you said, and I'll talk to the DM although he's too 'nice'. Hopefully it'll fix things.

[Honest Tiefling]

I really would like to walk away but I'm stuck in that unfortunate circle of that I DM for that group as well and my boyfriend is also part of it. I will try what you said, and I'll talk to the DM although he's too 'nice'. Hopefully it'll fix things.

Uhhh...Well, that changes things. Firstly, how long have you been dating this boyfriend, and what has he been doing to change it? (I consider a relationship of a few weeks to be far different kettle of fish then a relationship of a few years before I seem creepy).

And secondly, how does this player act when you are the DM?

You could just say "I am not having fun due to the party dynamics. I am bowing out of this game, but you are welcome to keep coming to the game I DM. Thank you and good bye." If they get annoyed at you being honest with your feelings and your boyfriend sides with them, your boyfriend might be a bit of a chump. They are also chumps for getting worked up when someone doesn't always like the game.

[JNAProductions]

On the game side, there's a decent chance he's cheating. If you have a Monk, they should have better AC and saves, a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin should have better HP, and just... Bards are great. But they're not THAT good.

[dejarnjc]

5e is pretty balanced so I doubt he's "optimized" enough to kill your entire party unless he's just cheating in some way. Action economy alone would put the advantage overwhelmingly on the side with numbers.

[Puh Laden]

in-game route: If the character is threatening to kill the rest of the characters, then your characters should leave him in the middle of the night, slipping away. It is the most mature of the immature options. :smalltongue:

Then help get a "no PvP" rule established through the means previously mentioned. Since it's obvious there's someone in the group who's abusing the fact that it's allowed.

[Honest Tiefling]

Unless the character has gotten some equipment, favors or the party is small enough that numbers aren't on the OP's side. Also, if they can't handle a mature discussion about gaming, no amount of kicking butt in game is going to fix that.

[Specter]

Hi,

I'm having an issue with another player. He's playing a bard and has 'optimised' his character to the point he has the highest HP, AC and the high saves. He's controlling the party because the likelihood is that he could kill them. He isn't allowing other characters to be themselves and often encroaches on other people's territory.

We're all vaguely evil, so killing him wouldn't be unlikely but I've stated before he could probably kill us. If I was DMing, I'd just kill his character but the DM is too nice. Any suggestions?

He's got another player on his side as that player, for lack of a better word, is a sheep.

A bard with good HP, good AC and good saves? Hah! I gotta see that. Any details on that build?

[VisionsOfGlory]

Firstly, how long have you been dating this boyfriend, and what has he been doing to change it? .

A long while and my boyfriend is a new player to D&D but he feels like he can't learn his character because of this player. If anything my bf is trying to learn how to play D&D.


And secondly, how does this player act when you are the DM?.

I'm a lot harsher than they're used to, so he's a lot more well behaved so I honestly think he's taking advantage of the DM.


On the game side, there's a decent chance he's cheating. If you have a Monk, they should have better AC and saves, a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin should have better HP, and just... Bards are great. But they're not THAT good.

We have a monk, but the Bard's save and AC are better.
I play a Paladin, but he has more HP and AC than me.
We have a Ranger but he has more AC and HP than him.

To be fair, we used to have a Barbarian who was pretty powerful, but the bard was still better.

From what I understand, he has high Con, Dex, Cha and probably Wis.

It's a shame, I really love the campaign we're in, it's a homebrew world that's been crafted so well with really rich NPCs.

[JNAProductions]

The Bard gets, at best, 13+Dex for AC. And that's assuming he poached Mage Armor. Realistically, he's looking at 12+Dex. The Monk gets 10+Dex+Wis. He should be creaming him on AC.

You're a Paladin. You have a step higher hit die than him, and just as much need for Constitution. You should easily outclass his HP.

Same with the Ranger.

It really sounds like you're dealing with a cheater. Ask the DM to review everyone's sheets-or, if you're comfortable calling him out, just his.

[Hrugner]

Talk to the DM, or ask him what's going on. Baring that though...

Insist that he couldn't kill you. When he waves some numbers around pretend to take notes and ask him to "please continue telling me everything I need to know to make your inevitable defeat humiliating rather than merely sad." When he falls for the goading and attacks, hand your character sheet to the DM and ask him to make the rolls and apply bonuses for the combat. Optimization isn't terribly relevant in this version, so his confidence is frankly suspicious. I suspect he's either overstating his abilities or flat out cheating. A bard with great saves and HP is strange to say the least, you may "win" as soon as the DM looks at his character sheet.

Since his taunting is out of game, keep your taunting out of game so he has to somehow justify attacking your character. If he doesn't go for the goading, then ignore the threats from there on out.

[Mbarbs]

Yeah, unless you rolled for stats and the bard rolled way better than everybody else, or unless everybody else seriously dunked things, there's no way that the bard is the most durable member of the party. They player may not be cheating on purpose - they may simply just not understand how things stack. (If you did roll for stats, then the possibility of one PC being weirdly strong just comes with the territory; rolling for stats is a terrible character generation method for a lot of reasons, but those reasons are amplified in a game where you expect inter-party combat.)

[Malifice]

Leave this game immediately.

This player is clearly cheating and is also a knob.

Start a new game with everyone except for this player.

[VisionsOfGlory]

5e is pretty balanced so I doubt he's "optimized" enough to kill your entire party unless he's just cheating in some way. Action economy alone would put the advantage overwhelmingly on the side with numbers.

Haha, I know. It's the main reason I suggested it to them. We have another player who is terrible for Min-Maxing. He's already told me how he'd kill my character :smallfrown: Hold Person and the fact he was allowed to ally with two black dragon.

And the magical thing was he actively prevented my character from befriending them.


in-game route: If the character is threatening to kill the rest of the characters, then your characters should leave him in the middle of the night, slipping away. It is the most mature of the immature options. :smalltongue:

Then help get a "no PvP" rule established through the means previously mentioned. Since it's obvious there's someone in the group who's abusing the fact that it's allowed.

The No PVP rule would get put to a vote, and unfortunately it wouldn't be passed.

Leaving his character in the middle of the night would be great if it wouldn't be considered 'cruel' and the two black dragon's he'd use to hunt us down and kill our characters.


Unless the character has gotten some equipment, favors or the party is small enough that numbers aren't on the OP's side. Also, if they can't handle a mature discussion about gaming, no amount of kicking butt in game is going to fix that.

I was secretly hoping some but kicking would shock him into realising that having a character you spent hours on being threatened with death isn't great. But you're right. I guess the best thing for it is to duck out.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, OOC discussion is far and away your best solution for this. Let us know how it goes!

[Honest Tiefling]

Haha, I know. It's the main reason I suggested it to them. We have another player who is terrible for Min-Maxing. He's already told me how he'd kill my character :smallfrown: Hold Person and the fact he was allowed to ally with two black dragon.

HOW HAVE YOU NOT PUNCHED THE DM YET IN THE CROTCH??? Oh right, boyfriend. Well, now I get why you think the DM is too 'nice', sweet crusty Pelor. I must suggest that you leave with all haste if the character is threatening the group with dragons.

Perhaps you should run a game sans moron for your boyfriend to learn DnD? Or even a one player campaign?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

1. Talk to the Player OOC about what's going on, hopefully reaching a consensus.

2. Poison the character in their sleep.

3. Poison the Player in THEIR sleep.

4. Tell the DM he/she needs to get in gear and punt the Bard into the nearest pantheon, thus removing them from the game forever.

[Mellack]

Sounds like this guy is a real jerk player. Leave. This is not teaching your BF how to play, so he should leave so he learns how the game should work. There was a great quote from someone on these boards: bad gaming is worse than not gaming at all. The sort of behavior you are dealing with is toxic and will ruin friendships. Get away before things get worse.

[Hrugner]

Haha, I know. It's the main reason I suggested it to them. We have another player who is terrible for Min-Maxing. He's already told me how he'd kill my character :smallfrown: Hold Person and the fact he was allowed to ally with two black dragon.

And the magical thing was he actively prevented my character from befriending them.


I'd like to know about this alliance with the black dragons. This sounds exploitable. Also, what are you playing. Since coup de grace doesn't exist in it's old form hold person isn't an instant win, he needs more than that.

[GPS]

I'd like to know about this alliance with the black dragons. This sounds exploitable. Also, what are you playing. Since coup de grace doesn't exist in it's old form hold person isn't an instant win, he needs more than that.
Following this train of thought, bribe the dragons. When they show up to kill you, tell them that you can pay them double whatever the bard is paying them. If he's not paying them, just offer them whatever gold you have on your character at the time. Black dragons, like all chromatic dragons, favor greed over loyalty. You and your allies may lose some gold or a few valuable items to outbid the bard for the dragons, but you'll be alive. If you have your boyfriend and maybe another friend to back you up by contributing wealth towards bribing black dragons, you be able to kill the bard with his former dragon buds.

If the DM doesn't let the dragons give in to their inate greed, you really need to have a talk with that DM. I know you can't leave and all, but you can fight for your party by confronting the DM.

[Phoenix042]

He threatens to kill characters, thanks for the suggestion though.

This guy sounds like a real *******.

This is not what gaming should feel like. I'm sorry you're having to deal with it.

Try calling him out for being a jerk in front of everybody. Tell him, out of game but AT the table, that you think he's making the game less fun for everyone and something needs to change.

Then, if nothing does change, you know who your friends AREN'T.

And leaving might be the only option.

Don't play the game with asshats like that.

[Malifice]

Why are you playing with this guy? Heck why are you playing with this group?

Role-playing games take up your leisure time. I don't spend my precious leisure time with jerks.

Get online and find yourself a new group.

[Beelzebubba]

Been there done that.

Leave the group. Life is too precious to waste with people like that.

[Skillasaurus]

I would love to agree w/ previous posters and say "turn the dragons against him", but honestly a toxic player is something you just cant fix.
Is the player normally a bully like this? If so i would just grab the boyfriend and find a new group. If not then just ask him in front of everybody why his character wants to be so controlling of the party (ooc of course), most people dont know when they are being bossey :p (even the well meaning ones).

[Unoriginal]

Is he hanging out with two dragons all the time?


If you want to just kill his (apparently cheated) character, I agree with the others that it's not a solution, but if you really want to do it, I can provide advice.

However, you really need to give us more info on his capacities and allies, and how he got all of that.

[NecroDancer]

Does your DM allow revenants?

[Vorpalchicken]

You should have little to fear from hold person as you are proficient in wisdom saves, add your Charisma bonus (assuming you are at least level 6 if you are chumming with black dragons) and get two saves versus the hold before the bard's turn comes around again.

I don't know what your magic item situation is but save bonuses are easier to come by than DC enhancers. If the bard has an instrument of the bards it could make things tougher but I still think hold person is a long shot.

[Sigreid]

Have you considered murdering him in his sleep? A rogue alpha strike should make him not have the highest hp, and he shouldn't be sleeping in armor.

[Rhedyn]

Hi,

I'm having an issue with another player. He's playing a bard and has 'optimised' his character to the point he has the highest HP, AC and the high saves. He's controlling the party because the likelihood is that he could kill them. He isn't allowing other characters to be themselves and often encroaches on other people's territory.

We're all vaguely evil, so killing him wouldn't be unlikely but I've stated before he could probably kill us. If I was DMing, I'd just kill his character but the DM is too nice. Any suggestions?

He's got another player on his side as that player, for lack of a better word, is a sheep.

Do you have actual examples or just accusations?

Regardless this problem is solved with a few hundred gold and a peasant army. Bribe some ruffians and have him killed if he is a threat. Numbers beat everything in this game.

[VisionsOfGlory]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the suggestions, I've messaged the DM and fingers crossed that works out.

I found out why he has insane AC. It's a magical item that's broken as ****, the guy only has 13 Dex.

It's a robe of Ying and Yang, homebrew and it gives you AC of 10 + 2x your Charisma modifier. He has 20 Charisma, which makes his AC 20. It's ridiculous.


Yeah, OOC discussion is far and away your best solution for this. Let us know how it goes!

I've messaged the DM, and hopefully that fixes things. But obviously the DM is nice, and new. I offered suggestions to fix it, since taking Magical items away is a bit harsh.

I've also read up on the some of the player's class features, and either there's a misunderstanding about how it works or he's playing off the knowledge the DM trusts us enough to not have to read up on all our features. I don't know how to approach that though.


Perhaps you should run a game sans moron for your boyfriend to learn DnD? Or even a one player campaign?

That reminds me, the player tried to tell my bf everything he should pick and like almost had an argument with me when I told him that it was my Bfs choice, and if anything his suggestions weren't all that good.

I'm tempted to allow my Bf into my campaign, but obviously that raises the problem of I'll either be too nice or too mean to him


3. Poison the Player in THEIR sleep.

That's very tempting, so very tempting but unfortunately I'm friends with the player outside the game and we all live together, which makes things even worse DX


Sounds like this guy is a real jerk player. Leave. This is not teaching your BF how to play, so he should leave so he learns how the game should work. There was a great quote from someone on these boards: bad gaming is worse than not gaming at all. The sort of behavior you are dealing with is toxic and will ruin friendships. Get away before things get worse.

I totally agree, like I've stated before we all live together so it makes things more difficult. I'm hoping that talking to the DM will change things but if it doesn't I'll just leave.


I'd like to know about this alliance with the black dragons. This sounds exploitable. Also, what are you playing. Since coup de grace doesn't exist in it's old form hold person isn't an instant win, he needs more than that.

I'm a Paladin, high Wisdom saves are my thing, so hold person is not the be all and end all. Luckily even if I failed a save, there's nothing they could really do since my bf would take my side but its mainly the point of threatening a character someone's put so much time in.

My character is an oathbreaker, but I'm not evil enough to even want to work with these black dragons. The premise is they need the souls of the living and my character's evil in the sense everything he does is for self gain.


If the DM doesn't let the dragons give in to their inate greed, you really need to have a talk with that DM. I know you can't leave and all, but you can fight for your party by confronting the DM.

I don't know, the Bard is a tiefling who's apparently immortal at level 5, with a homebrew robe that makes anything official look like child's play.

The DM, by the looks of it, is pandering. I missed a lot of these magical item's because I work, it's only three times a week so it's not like they can't plan to not play when I'm not there. So I find I get very left behind, and it's all my fault for working? In fact, in an old campaign I wasn't even given XP to get back up to their level.


This is not what gaming should feel like. I'm sorry you're having to deal with it.

Try calling him out for being a jerk in front of everybody. Tell him, out of game but AT the table, that you think he's making the game less fun for everyone and something needs to change.

Then, if nothing does change, you know who your friends AREN'T.

And leaving might be the only option.

Don't play the game with asshats like that.

I'm not sure he'd respond well to that, but if talking to the DM doesn't work, or not as well as it should, I'll try and call him out and see. Leaving may be the only option, and it's a shame. The campaign is fantastic, but the player less so.


Why are you playing with this guy? Heck why are you playing with this group?

Role-playing games take up your leisure time. I don't spend my precious leisure time with jerks.

Get online and find yourself a new group.

The past couple of campaigns I've played with him weren't too bad, but then he was playing classes everybody knew how to play, and we had next to no magical items.


Been there done that.

Leave the group. Life is too precious to waste with people like that.

And Got the T-Shirt, so many times. It's hard to find a decent group to play with these days, my first one was fantastic but we all split up because we went to different Uni's.


If not then just ask him in front of everybody why his character wants to be so controlling of the party (ooc of course), most people dont know when they are being bossey :p (even the well meaning ones).

I would bet money that he'd reply, it's just the way my character is!


Is he hanging out with two dragons all the time?

If you want to just kill his (apparently cheated) character, I agree with the others that it's not a solution, but if you really want to do it, I can provide advice.

However, you really need to give us more info on his capacities and allies, and how he got all of that.

I'm not sure to be honest, we get teleported around by them to do their evil bidding. I'd rather not go into conflict, especially with 20AC and the fact the DM doesn't understand how the player's character works so he couldn't referee.


Does your DM allow revenants?

Revenants?

[VisionsOfGlory]

You should have little to fear from hold person as you are proficient in wisdom saves, add your Charisma bonus (assuming you are at least level 6 if you are chumming with black dragons) and get two saves versus the hold before the bard's turn comes around again.

I don't know what your magic item situation is but save bonuses are easier to come by than DC enhancers. If the bard has an instrument of the bards it could make things tougher but I still think hold person is a long shot.

We're level 5, yay.

All I've really got to save me is a monk who has silence and is on my side, and the fact Hold Person is concentration.

I have one magical item, a +1 longsword that I had to buy. He has four or five :/ And one of them is legendary level.


Have you considered murdering him in his sleep? A rogue alpha strike should make him not have the highest hp, and he shouldn't be sleeping in armor.

Murder is not always the answer :D But yeah, it would help.


Do you have actual examples or just accusations?

Regardless this problem is solved with a few hundred gold and a peasant army. Bribe some ruffians and have him killed if he is a threat. Numbers beat everything in this game.

Yeah, enough level 1's could kill a level 20. Isn't 5e great?

He's not being telling the whole about abilities.

He has find familiar and certain features can only be used up to 100ft, he's been using it at a mile plus. Last time I checked familiars can't pick locks either, but that might just be me being a stickler for the rules. There have been various other class features that haven't been played 'correctly'


Do: Talk it out like adults. Express your concerns, listen to the other side of the story too, and try to seek an agreeable resolution where everyone has fun. If one cannot be reached, consider finding another group.

Do not: Make claims of cheating without evidence because you believe that 13+Dex is the highest AC that an optimized bard can get (it isn't). The answer to bad behavior isn't to engage in more bad behavior.

I'm pretty sure I never claimed he was cheating but after reading over somethings, I do have a base.
Like I've stated before, Find Familiar isn't a hard spell to understand and it can only happen so many times.

But yeah, I've expressed my concerns and I'm just waiting for a response.

Thanks for the help :)

[LudicSavant]

Do: Talk it out like adults. Express your concerns, listen to the other side of the story too, and try to seek an agreeable resolution where everyone has fun. If one cannot be reached, consider finding another group.

Do not: Make claims of cheating without evidence because you believe that 13+Dex is the highest AC that an optimized bard can get (it isn't). The answer to bad behavior isn't to engage in more bad behavior.


I'm pretty sure I never claimed he was cheating but after reading over somethings, I do have a base.
Like I've stated before, Find Familiar isn't a hard spell to understand and it can only happen so many times.

But yeah, I've expressed my concerns and I'm just waiting for a response.

Thanks for the help :)

Yeah, I was referring to what JNA suggested. Good luck! :smallsmile:

[TrinculoLives]

This is not a D&D question. It's a human relations question.

Talk to him like an adult.

This sort of thing is quite simple. The main reason, I suspect, that other users have responded with thoughts on whether this player is cheating and interesting ways to work around the dragon allies is because it's interesting to consider those sorts of solutions. (Also the question of being OP is in the title.)

But the solution is right here, first response. Work up some moxy and speak directly to the DM and then the player in question.

To the DM: "Hi DM, I don't like how ________ has been threatening the other members of the party with death unless we do what he wants. It's making the game not fun for me and I'm going to have to quit unless this stops."

To the player in question:
"Hi _________. I don't like how you've been threatening the rest of the party with death unless we do what you want. That's not fun, and certainly not the way that D&D is meant to be played."

If the DM is a capable DM, he will tell the player in question (in private, as both of these other conversations should have been) that he needs to stop this behaviour or he'll need to boot him from the game.

[Sigreid]

Murder is rarely the answer but in this case the other player is threatening his team mates regularly. Murdering his character is equivalent to fighting the bully so he knows in the future not to try to bully you.

Even if you lose, the willingness to fight is the message.

[PeteNutButter]

Have you considered murdering him in his sleep? A rogue alpha strike should make him not have the highest hp, and he shouldn't be sleeping in armor.

As has been pointed out this is probably an issue with the player more than the character.

Ask yourself: "How would my character react to an NPC that did the same actions?" If your character is evil the answer is probably MURDER.

Murdering someone in their sleep is pretty surefire way to win a fight. Advantage to hit and automatic criticals against sleeping foes is pretty OP. Everyone ready to hit him at once. Remember that the dice get doubled from your smites and your rogue's sneak attack. If he is still wearing some OP robe. Have the rogue steal his bones dry before you murder him, starting with his spell components and instrument.

If he isn't killed outright, he starts prone with no gear or abiity to cast spells with material components. It should be an easy win.

One should note that as an evil party it's possible for people to manifest their real life jerkiness in the game in a way that makes sense for their character. If you're all neutral or chaotic evil, it makes sense for the toughest jerk to act boss. So he is likely a jerk, but if he is a jerk in game, your characters are justified in killing him. It's very important to NEVER EVER take out of game things out on PCs in game, but if another PC wants you dead... Sounds like fair game to me. Evil parties are a mess.

Anyways there are 3 possible outcomes:

1.) He dies and ragequits. That's a win for everyone.

2.) He dies and realizes his errors, understanding that it was the way his character was acting (not him) that got him killed. This is pretty unlikely, but I have actually seen it happen at my table recently.

3.) He dies and silently vows to get back at you with his next character. This is incredibly disruptive and should result in him being removed from the game.

#2 is the best outcome, but highly dependent on the player's maturity, which of course appears to be lacking. It may help if you stabilize him and make him agree to stop being a jerk (in-game).

[Gryndle]

First I would try reasoning with the DM. AS mentioned above it is likely the bard is cheating and he himself will likely NOT listen to reason. Try every reasonable approach to solve the issue out of game.

So in game, as a suggestion to the character that is being threatened repeatedly, here is what I would do. Tow the line until your group gets into what seems may be a tough fight. Then your character (and any others you can convince) should split, leave the bard and his crony high and dry. let the critters take them down, and if they don't, then consider if you can finish the job.
In character reasoning: "Screw this, I'm not risking my life with or for that jerk."

[Innocent_bystan]

The next times his character boasts about killing you, challenge him to a duel.

Sheets on the table, dice in the open, no prep time. A lvl 5 paladin versus a lvl 5 bard, mano a mano? I know which way I'd bet.

Bards are not good at buffing themselves. Their inspiration dice don't work on themselves. Most of their buff spells have concentration (spell secrets comes online at 6, so no problem there).
They have next to no direct damage output (no extra attack yet for a valor bard, vicious mockery only deals 2d4 on a failed wisdom save), compare to 2x 1d8+4(?) for 2 longsword attacks.
Some of his control spells might land, but you get a save every round (also: concentration), so they won't stick for long.

Your paladin will win due to atrition with higher sustained damage and 25 free hit points from Lay on Hands.
Crit + smite his ass to speed up the process.
That robe would look mighty fine on your paladin as well.

I know the type: in ideal circumstances, they'll own you. Or so they say. Burst their bubble and they shut up really quick.

[Squiddish]

Steal the robe from him in his sleep and destroy it.

Now his AC is back to sane levels.

Then, bribe the dragons.

For the final step, replace all of his potions with potions of poison.

Or talk to him/the DM out of character, that works too.

[Asmotherion]

Hi,

I'm having an issue with another player. He's playing a bard and has 'optimised' his character to the point he has the highest HP, AC and the high saves. He's controlling the party because the likelihood is that he could kill them. He isn't allowing other characters to be themselves and often encroaches on other people's territory.

We're all vaguely evil, so killing him wouldn't be unlikely but I've stated before he could probably kill us. If I was DMing, I'd just kill his character but the DM is too nice. Any suggestions?

He's got another player on his side as that player, for lack of a better word, is a sheep.

Well, the mature thing to do is to discuss with the player, not his PC, explaining his ingame behavior makes the game less pleasurable to the rest of the party, and to tone it down a little. If he's one of those players that don't get it, and want to have the last word, or implyes he is just staying in-character, and that's what his character would do, there are a couple more aproaches:

-Trick him into a crime in a major city, or frame him for one. I doubt he's strong enough to fight the whole millitia of a city.

-If everything else fails, just take him to a big dungeon, or a Dragon's lair, and during the Boss Fight, Gang Up to him together with the NPCs. You can arange the NPC co-operation (like, targeting only him), by bribing them 30% beforehand, and (to be sure they won't betray you), hide the rest of the bribe somewere, and inform them of the location afterwards via a latter.

-If he metagames his way out of it, just tell him ingame that you don't want to adventure with him anymore, and leave him behind as an NPC.

-Either way, if you're all the same level, no matter how optimised he is, he probably can't take you all alone (assuming a 5-party format). Anyone killed in the fight can be raised, after you burn his dead body.

[JNAProductions]

Why does he have such great magic items, while the rest of you don't? Is the DM their personal friend or something?

[Segev]

Yeah, two suggestions:

1) Ask the DM for your own super-special-awesome magic items.

2) Don't let this bard bully your paladin. When he threatens, treat it like bluster that he'd never act on. Be ready to defend yourself if he follows through, and be ready to try to kill his character as efficiently as possible, but don't sweat it if you can't. If he kills your PC, bow out of the game on the grounds that you don't want to make another cohort for his bully of a character.

2.5) If you can swing it, rally the other PCs to also refuse his orders. If he attacks any of you, attack him back together. If he kills multiple of you...well, that'll end the game when you all refuse to make new characters to party with his.

[brainface]

Dueling him seems like a really bad idea. If you win, I suspect a lot of whining about how OP paladins are and or accusations of cheating, if you lose, and it sounds like there's a decent chance of that due to magic items and the player's creative ability reading, then I'd expect the really toxic behavior to begin. Leave and let them tyrant over no one at all. :P

[Crusher]

I recognize there are strong interpersonal reasons NOT to do this, but from a purely character standpoint, your paladin is an Oathbreaker. If someone messes with them, or threatens them, or seriously tries to bully or control them, murdering that person in their sleep is TOTALLY appropriate.

And, frankly, should be a complete piece of cake. The rules I've always played with (can't recall if they're homebrewed or actually the rules) are that attacking a "held" person is done with advantage, and a hit is an auto-critical. Attacking a sleeping target is the same thing as attacking a "held" target.

Since its a cloak, he probably sleeps in it, giving him AC 20 (he won't get to add his Dex bonus to his AC when he's asleep). Level 5, +1 longsword, probably a 16 STR will net you roughly a +7 to hit. Cast Bless on yourself before getting started for an extra +1d4 to-hit on top of that. Combined with advantage, you should hit AC 20 ~75% of the time.

Obviously you'd smite, because its more damage, and because killing someone who is trying to control or even kill you is about as central to an Oathbreaker's core beliefs as you're going to get. You've got a pair of level 2 spell slots, so now would be a good time to use them.

Assuming you hit twice (which is about the average result), you're going to do:

1d8 (longsword) + 3d8 smite + 1 (magic sword) + 3 (STR) on a normal hit. But since its a crit, double those dice:

2d8 + 6d8 + 1 + 3 and since you (hopefully) hit twice, it'll be:

4d8 + 12d8 + 2 + 6 = 16d8 + 8 which is a heck of a lot of damage (trying to push around people who can nova like a paladin isn't a great idea)

Assuming average dice rolls, you'd do ~40 damage per swing, or ~80 damage in total. This should instantly turn any level 5 bard in the entire world into jelly. Most fairly built level 5 bards should have around 38 hp (8 hp at level 1, +5 per level after that, +2 per level from a 14 CON) and be instantly killed by this (because you did over double their HP). Even a Bard with a 20 CON and perfect HP rolls would have 65 hp, so instead of being dead they'd merely be deeply unconscious and barely clinging to life. You are a wrecking ball, and bards are made out of wet paper towels.

Heck, most 5th level bards would be knocked unconscious by *1* of your swings.

I recognize that there are valid reasons *not* to kill him in his sleep, but they're mostly out-of-game reasons. But remember that the Bard doesn't seem to be letting out-of-game reasons stop him from being a bully.

[Innocent_bystan]

Dueling him seems like a really bad idea. If you win, I suspect a lot of whining about how OP paladins are and or accusations of cheating, if you lose, and it sounds like there's a decent chance of that due to magic items and the player's creative ability reading, then I'd expect the really toxic behavior to begin. Leave and let them tyrant over no one at all. :P
Half the point of the duel is getting the player to show the specifics of the character.

If you're playing with point buy: how does he manage a 20 Cha with only 1 ASI?
What magic items does he have? Is he attuned to more than 3?
Where did he get a familiar?
Why are his hit points so high?
Why are his saves so high?
Creative interpretations are not really harmful in PvE, but in PvP they get shut down, hard. (At least in my group)

The other half is roleplaying: you're a badass paladin of questionable morality. He's a minstrel with a fancy dress. I find it hard to believe an oathbreaker paladin would tolerate any bullying from someone​ who sings songs for a living.

A duel is far to honorable for the character, but killing someone's character while they are resting, is a line you shouldn't cross.

At the end of the duel, regardless of who wins, you've made your point. You've probably also exposed some creative oversights in his build. And at the very least, you've shown the rest of the party exactly what he is capable of and drained him of a significant portion of his resources.
Prime backstabbing material, so to speak.

I'd probably wouldn't even kill the bard if I won. I'd have an OOC talk with the player about him roleplaying vengeance and you roleplaying a murderous bastard that kills kittens and unconscious popstars for fun. I'm sure some sort of agreement is possible, otherwise, just stab twice and call dibs on a magic item of choice.

[Maxilian]

On the game side, there's a decent chance he's cheating. If you have a Monk, they should have better AC and saves, a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin should have better HP, and just... Bards are great. But they're not THAT good.

Well with a good spell selection, a bard can have more AC than a Monk (even more if its rolled stats, in the end the monk is way more needy when it comes to his ASIS)

[Hrugner]

Leaving him alive is probably a wash anyway. He sounds like the sort to build a revenge character.

[Unoriginal]

I found out why he has insane AC. It's a magical item that's broken as ****, the guy only has 13 Dex.

It's a robe of Ying and Yang, homebrew and it gives you AC of 10 + 2x your Charisma modifier. He has 20 Charisma, which makes his AC 20. It's ridiculous.

Err... while AC 20 is indeed pretty high, especially for a Bard, and the robe stuff is certainly ridiculous, AC 20 isn't that high. It'd be the same if you had to fight a Knight in armor + shield.

In fact, you could ask your DM to find a Knight to defeat and take their armors and shields, to have the equivalent.



My character is an oathbreaker, but I'm not evil enough to even want to work with these black dragons. The premise is they need the souls of the living and my character's evil in the sense everything he does is for self gain.


I'm not going to say "you're playing it wrong", as of course it'd be dumb of me to do it, the fluff depends of the setting and what the gamers agree on, but the book's Oathbreaker isn't someone who does "evil in the sense everything he does is for self gain.", an Oathbreaker's someone who deliberately and knowingly forsake all the chances at redemption, after breaking their vows. And once they die they become omnicidal Death Knights.

I mean, even if the Bard kills you somehow, you'll literally come back stronger and more evil.

[Sariel Vailo]

yeaah actually sneak away i wish id thought of that when i had your issue.i just well i "healed" my aggresor i used medicine poorly on purpose. he began loosing hp to such a point ourr group left him for dead. another pk was in the giant module we frabbed him the fighter, me the paly or in this case oath breaker after this, and a dragonborn warlock or combined strength checks to grapple beat this optimized cleric we threw hiim from the giants floating home he did a lot of damage and would fight others

[Unoriginal]

Or just grapple the Bard, stop him from speaking, and keep attacking while he desperately tries to escape.

Might not work if he has a good score in Athletics, though.


Still, not really a solution to the real problem.

[Sigreid]

I'm still of the opinion that what you do about this particular character is less important than sending the clear message that you will not tolerate being bullied and threatened by your allies. I think the player needs to learn that your characters will always fight, so mutual respect is their best policy.

[Zman]

The answer is to have an honest conversation about the game. They are ruining your fun, that needs to be addressed.

Now, this OP Bard is likely the result of cheating, so that is another issue that needs to be addressed.

You also likely have a bad DM that is enabling cheating/munchkin players that are ruining other player's fun, that also needs to be addressed. "Too nice" is an excuse for being a poor/ineffective DM.


The only reasonable course of action is to have an honest and hopefully fruitful OOC discussion about the game, the characters, and the DM.

[GPS]

Is he hanging out with two dragons all the time?


If you want to just kill his (apparently cheated) character, I agree with the others that it's not a solution, but if you really want to do it, I can provide advice.

However, you really need to give us more info on his capacities and allies, and how he got all of that.
Yeah, if you want to go this route can we get classes and stats of you and your allies, your party level, age of the dragons (young to ancient), and resources at your disposal, including monetary ones?

Also, I'm just going to add to the pile of people who think the dude is cheating. Despite his fancy AC being legal, it kind of sounds like he's using some EN World or DandDwiki bard build, most of which have either misinterpreted or deliberately botched rules to be more enticing. It would explain why he's so confident, he thinks he has a DPRbot

[Sigreid]

Or he could be aware that he's full of it and bluffing.

[GPS]

Or he could be aware that he's full of it and bluffing.
True, he could be hiding behind his insane (for a bard) but legal AC number.

[Unoriginal]

20 isn't even that much.

I mean, your average goblins still has what, 25% chance of hitting him?

[Strill]

Haha, I know. It's the main reason I suggested it to them. We have another player who is terrible for Min-Maxing. He's already told me how he'd kill my character :smallfrown: Hold Person and the fact he was allowed to ally with two black dragon.Is that a joke? This guy has no idea what he's doing. Most characters should have around a 50% chance to pass the saving throw, and your chances are even better since you have Wisdom save proficiency, and possibly Aura of Protection. Plus you get another save each turn. You have nothing to fear from some idiot Bard's Hold Person spell.

Hold Person is good when you have allies to back you up on the same turn, but complete garbage if you're alone.

[furby076]

Wait a level, get your aura of protection. Now you get bonuses to your saves. Attack him in his sleep, before he regains spells. You will hit on those attacks, you will auto critical with smites, and you will continue to shut him down.

Does 5e have tanglefoot bags? Great, use it so he cant run away

[Kane0]

Firstly enlighten your DM as to what items this guy has compared to the rest of the party.
Level 6 you get Cha to saves for you and allies. You and allies attack him when he's vulnerable (sleeping, low on slots, items out of charges, fallen down a pit, etc). Steal what items you can from him before you begin. Smite on every hit, monk flurries and attempts stuns on all hits, knock prone if you have the chnace. Spare no expense in your brutality.

Can beat you all my ass, hard to call in dragon friends when you're drowning in a pool of your own blood.

[GPS]

Can beat you all my ass, hard to call in dragon friends when you're drowning in a pool of your own blood.
That's the part that's been bothering me. From the description​s, he sounds like he's trying to bluff OP into thinking he has some kind of connection with the dragons that'll just summon them when he dies. He can't possibly actually have that, can he?

[Honest Tiefling]

That's the part that's been bothering me. From the description​s, he sounds like he's trying to bluff OP into thinking he has some kind of connection with the dragons that'll just summon them when he dies. He can't possibly actually have that, can he?

Eeeh, even if she's wrong, death by turning a dragon's ally into an amusing skull puppet is still quite a story.

[War_lord]

Just leave the game. You're dealing with a DM who clearly either doesn't know what they're doing, or is blatantly favoring one player, and a player who is, bluntly, a total ass. Just walk away. This isn't a D&D problem, it's an interpersonal problem.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the final step, replace all of his potions with potions of poison.
That's one of the better ideas, providing the rogue or monk works with the DM to try this without the bard character being aware of it.

Why does he have such great magic items, while the rest of you don't? Is the DM their personal friend or something? The DM, as described, is not a good one.

Just leave the game. You're dealing with a DM who clearly either doesn't know what they're doing, or is blatantly favoring one player, and a player who is, bluntly, a total ass. Just walk away. This isn't a D&D problem, it's an interpersonal problem.This too.

[Silfazaris]

I'd have left this game in his first attempt to intimidate the players.

Are you playing to take part in the story and to do stuff based on your character or are you playing with a 12 years old boy who wants to be awesome in a game?

That sounds too childish in my opinion. Talk to the other players and then all of you talk to the DM.
It's not only about his character being powerful, it's about a child player threatening others because of his stats.
You play RPG against monsters and challenges, not against another player.

[furby076]

Sooo..what happened. Its been a while. We need closure.

[cZak]

Sooo..what happened. Its been a while. We need closure.

Tune in tomorrow for another episode of 'As the Dice Turn'...