Gritty realism rest variant. What other tweaks would you use?

[Malifice]

For my next campaign I'm going to be using the gritty realism rest variant.

A short rest will be eight hours. A long rest will be 10 whole days (the game will be set in Faerun and a week is 10 days).

I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experience with this, and can recommend some other tweaks to counteract any unforeseen consequences or balance issues?

For starters, I intend to use the healing surge variant as well (once per day you may heal up to half your HD as an action and players to recover 1/4 of spent hit dice (minimum one) on a short rest). I'm doing this to provide a source of healing outside of spell slots, and for pacing concerns. It brings each characters effective hit points up by 150% which should enable them to handle 4 or 5 encounters per short rest, instead of only 2 or 3. This should enable them to clear your average dungeon level over the course of a short rest.

I've ensured every Sorcerer subclass has a first level class feature that grants them an AC of 13 + Dexterity. Effectively this leaves them two 1st level slots for an entire week. I'm allowing sorcerers to add their charisma modifier to their sorcery points at fifth level. Spell slots created Font of magic disappear on a short rest. At 18 level Sorcerers also gain the Spell Mastery class feature that wizards of 18th level get.

I also moved Arcane school of Wizard to 1st level, and Arcane recovery to 2nd level. This really really hurts Wizards Leaving them stuck with just the two spell slots at first level, one of which will almost certainly be used for mage armor.

To compensate, I have made mage armor a ritual. Although I am considering simply making it a class feature for first level wizards.

Arcane recovery is only usable 1/ Long rest. Wizards are really going to struggle through the lower levels.

I've given Barbarians a fighting style at second level to compensate for the fact that they will be able to effectively rage less.

Exhaustion recovers on a short rest (overnight) instead of a long rest. Diseases work the same.

I will be using the new downtime activities, so you can brew healing potions and scribe scrolls to take some of the sting out of the resource drain.

To compensate for the nerfing of casters, I'm considering implementing a rule that allows a spellcaster to gain a level of exhaustion instead of expending a spell slot when casting a spell of 5th level or lower. The option cannot be used if you have more than 3 levels of exhaustion. I figure this should take some of the pain out of having to ration spell slots so tightly.

Thoughts on this last rule, or any of the others? Is there anything that I've missed or that you can think of?

[djreynolds]

I like this.

The only tweak I have tried and loved as a DM, I allow my sorcerers on a rest to switch out metamagic.

Why? Because I want to see them use all of them, tired of twinned and quickened. This way they can try them all out and plan ahead. Hey I may need subtle and distant today, so I will lose twinned and quickened for the day

Also, if the players don't mind perhaps wizards could have light armor proficiency, studded leather and no worries about mage armor

For barbarian, I have toyed with this... say your barbarian is out of rages, he can give up a 1d8 hit dice to rage... these would be valuable as healing is at a minimum

[Malifice]

For barbarian, I have toyed with this... say your barbarian is out of rages, he can give up a 1d8 hit dice to rage... these would be valuable as healing is at a minimum

The game is designed and balanced around the barbarian getting X number of rages per Long rest (6 or so encounters).

For most of a barbarians career that will range from between 2 to 4 rages. He should only be raging every second encounter.

As long as the player characters are only getting a half a dozen or so encounters in between long rests in the barbarian is fine. The issue with gritty realism is that the barbarian is much more likely to have to face more than six encounters per Long rest then he would under standard resting rules, where he would be much more likely to be able to rage every single encounter on many days that feature less than the default six or so encounters.

Basically under the gritty realism variant players will be expected to deal with 10 or so encounters per Long rest. Under the normal resting variant it's recommended to be 6 or so encounters, but quite often ends up fewer with around 4 being the norm.

He shifts from being able to rage in about 75% of encounters, to only ranging in about a third of them. Seeing as how rage interacts nicely with reckless attack, and that interacts with brutal critical, and many of a barbarians class features only work when he is raging, barbarians needed a little something extra to compensate.

That's why I have given them a fighting style at second level (Great weapon fighting, Two weapon fighting, Protection, and Dueling) to compensate.

I've compensated with spell casters by allowing them to obtain a free spell slot of fifth level or lower and of a level they can cast in exchange for gaining a level of exhaustion (max three levels of exhaustion).

I'm also removing Nova temptations. Sneak attack, Divine Smite and Stunning strike are only usable once per turn, on your turn. Superiority dice, SharpShooter and Great weapon master are only usable once per attack action.

[djreynolds]

I love the concept.

So I'm just spit balling here, how about for barbarian, if he goes below say 1/3 hp, he rages

That's how we handled frenzy and got rid of exhaustion, it just happens. Feels like a berserker.. doesn't it. You have no control, our HP was half. But 1/3 could work for you

But here it could work for all the barbarians. And its dangerous for a player out of rages... perhaps hoping to this happens.

[Cespenar]

We use a common "level of exhaustion when hitting 0 hp" rule that works well. It fits gritty realism, I think.

[Zman]

We use a common "level of exhaustion when hitting 0 hp" rule that works well. It fits gritty realism, I think.

I second this rule, it is quite good in practice. And I'm glad you recognized that removing a level of exhaustion needs to be an 8 hour short rest.

I also recommend the "Breather" which I usually do a a 30 second rest allowing one Hit Dice to be recovered, given this variant I'd make it a 5 min rest to heal one Hit dice. It's a nice cinematic rest before they renter the fray.

Might want to use resting in armor as well.

Resting in Armor
If a character takes a long rest while Medium or Heavy armor that imposes disadvantage on Stealth is donned, upon finishing their long rest they must make a Constitution Save of DC 10 or the Strength Requirement of the Armor, whichever is greater. If they fail this save, increase their level of exhaustion by one, this cannot cause a creature's exhaustion level to exceed 2.

[Specter]

For realism? Make dropping to 0hp give one exhaustion level.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Why would Gritty Realism increase the frequency of things to fight?

I feel like gritty realism would make both players and monsters be struck and debilitated or outright killed faster, and that the party would spend more time slogging through ice and mud than actually fighting anything. The sort of campaign where carry weight is tracked and the players spend more time wondering where food is going to come from than where the treasure is.

[Pex]

I have found how long a rest is in the game world to be irrelevant. What matters is the ratio of how often players get their rests compared to real world playing time. It will not be fun if the players playing once a week for a 4-6 hours for a month still have not had a long rest. It takes real world time, effort, and energy to make time to play the game, travel to the game, travel home, and play the game at the table. It will be frustrating and not fun if they're running on fumes on their class abilities by the third session. Spellcasters do not want to only be casting cantrips because they're out of spell slots or they need to save them for the BBEG fight that's still two real world weeks away to play. Paladins will be bored if they don't get to smite. Battle Masters want to use their maneuvers and not just say "I attack". It will also be unfair that the PCs are not at full hit points because they haven't rested while the bad guys always are on top of getting full use of all their abilities because they're on camera only for that one fight so don't need to conserve.

Let the party get their rests comparable to using the standard rules. The narrative can be whatever you want, i. e. the party vacations for a tenday for their long rest, even though you're only half-way through your real world game session that one particular day.

[Malifice]

We use a common "level of exhaustion when hitting 0 hp" rule that works well. It fits gritty realism, I think.

No, the problems that system creates would-be aggravated in a gritty realism (longer rest) setting.

In practice all the 'level of exhaustion at zero hit points' does is it forces the player characters to rely on the five minute adventuring day. It encourages nova tactics and rest, encounter, rest, encounter, rest which is something I'm trying to avoid.

As soon as they drop, they fall and back Long rest. They won't be able to get through more than 1 or 2 encounters before they are forced to rest. In fact I intentionally put the healing surge variant into the game to extend the number of encounters between rests to 4 or 5.

I'm trying to avoid the five-minute adventuring day by making long rests much more difficult and take much more time to do. I'm trying to increase the number of encounters between short rest, and not reduce them.

All a system that gives them exhaustion on dropping to 0 hit points does, is it make make rests much more appealing to the players. It makes them mandatory in fact after only 1 or 2 encounters.

[Malifice]

I second this rule, it is quite good in practice. And I'm glad you recognized that removing a level of exhaustion needs to be an 8 hour short rest.

I also recommend the "Breather" which I usually do a a 30 second rest allowing one Hit Dice to be recovered, given this variant I'd make it a 5 min rest to heal one Hit dice. It's a nice cinematic rest before they renter the fray.

I'm already using the 'healing surge' variant. This lets the player characters use an action to spend a number of hit dice equal to half their level. It doesn't refresh any other short rest resources such as exhaustion, ki points, superiority dice or warlock spell slots. Just hit points.

So Bob your 10th level (Battle master) fighter with a Constitution of 14 has 74hp. He also has 5d10+10 Hit dice available to him to heal throughout the day, in addition to his second wind class feature which heals 1d10+10.

In effect, Bob has 150% of his normal short rest hit points. The default assumption in the game is most player characters can go from 2 to 3 encounters between short rests. Including the healing surge variant means most player characters should be able to last between 4 and 5.

Bob also has 5d10 superiority dice, and one action surge to use over those 4 or 5 encounters.

A rule that I am considering is this:

Refocus
'If you have inspiration, you may elect to take a short breather of around one minute to refocus and redouble your efforts towards your goal. This short breather counts as a short rest for you. Once you have used this option you cannot do so again until you have had at least eight hours of rest'

[Malifice]

sort of campaign where carry weight is tracked and the players spend more time wondering where food is

Ive tracked encumbrance and rations (and made my players do the same) since I started playing in 1982. Down to the last pound.

I also record where I store my things in case I need to drop my backpack etc.

And yes, I bring soap and a mess kit with me when I go adventuring.

I also wont let players map a dungeon unless they have something to map on and with. Or if they have that perfect memory feat.

If your Dungeon Master is happy with your Str 8 PC lugging around 400lbs worth of equipment and never eating, then more luck to him.

[Malifice]

I have found how long a rest is in the game world to be irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant. Longer rests are logistically more difficult to take and thus harder to have. Upping and leaving a dungeon for an entire ten-day plus travel time break is a very different proposition from spending one hour somewhere.

If you are raiding the bandit camp and need to Long rest, you have two options. Press on, or withdraw for a couple of weeks back to town for 10 days to heal up and recover resources. Both options carry risks and consequences.

What do the bandits do during those 10 days? Do they leave? Do they recruit reinforcements? Do they come looking for you interrupting that rest?

From a players perspective, if you know that it is going to take 10 days back in town to recover Long rest resources you will naturally be a lot more cautious when expending those resources. You know once you blow that third level spell slot it is going to be a couple of weeks before you see it again.

[Cespenar]

No, the problems that system creates would-be aggravated in a gritty realism (longer rest) setting.

In practice all the 'level of exhaustion at zero hit points' does is it forces the player characters to rely on the five minute adventuring day. It encourages nova tactics and rest, encounter, rest, encounter, rest which is something I'm trying to avoid.

As soon as they drop, they fall and back Long rest. They won't be able to get through more than 1 or 2 encounters before they are forced to rest. In fact I intentionally put the healing surge variant into the game to extend the number of encounters between rests to 4 or 5..

It's the same situation done differently in my opinion. DMs should create situations so that you shouldn't be able to afford long resting after every fight. Looking from that perspective the extra exhaustion is "good" since it can't be immediately removed and can have some actual effect on the character.

Otherwise I'm on board with your general idea about removing 5 minute adventuring days.

[Pex]

It's entirely relevant. Longer rests are logistically more difficult to take and thus harder to have. Upping and leaving a dungeon for an entire ten-day plus travel time break is a very different proposition from spending one hour somewhere.

If you are raiding the bandit camp and need to Long rest, you have two options. Press on, or withdraw for a couple of weeks back to town for 10 days to heal up and recover resources. Both options carry risks and consequences.

What do the bandits do during those 10 days? Do they leave? Do they recruit reinforcements? Do they come looking for you interrupting that rest?

From a players perspective, if you know that it is going to take 10 days back in town to recover Long rest resources you will naturally be a lot more cautious when expending those resources. You know once you blow that third level spell slot it is going to be a couple of weeks before you see it again.

There's no problem staying finishing out a dungeon or taking care of the bandits. The problem is what happens afterwards. If it takes two gaming sessions to clear out a dungeon and most of the PC's class ability resources, are they still going to have a few fights afterward on game sessions three and four before they get to long rest? If so, that is the problem. All they get to do is say "I attack" or "I cast a Cantrip". It will be boring and frustrating. If the party does get to long rest after clearing out the dungeon, then it's irrelevant if it took four in world hours and an in game's night rest or it took three in game days to clear out the dungeon and an in game tenday afterwards to take a long rest. In both cases it was two real world game sessions to play out the dungeon, a moment for the DM to say "You take a long rest. Doing anything special for downtime?" then start fresh for a new adventure on real world game session three.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Ive tracked encumbrance and rations (and made my players do the same) since I started playing in 1982. Down to the last pound.

I also record where I store my things in case I need to drop my backpack etc.

And yes, I bring soap and a mess kit with me when I go adventuring.

I also wont let players map a dungeon unless they have something to map on and with. Or if they have that perfect memory feat.

If your Dungeon Master is happy with your Str 8 PC lugging around 400lbs worth of equipment and never eating, then more luck to him.

I track carry weight and rations in one campaign because where their supplies were coming from was a very real concern when in the backcountry. But, I haven't run a campaign where the party actually looted much of anything in a long time, so I generally don't track it.

I did go back to tracking it when I noticed that one character's entire carry capacity was taken up by her heavy flamer and its fuel. But, in general, when the party travels by train, or returns to their frigate at night, etc. I don't feel compelled to track weight and rations. In Dark Heresy, I assume Protector Vigilant is supplied with plenty of food and ammunition for their guns and her guns, and if you need more, you're in orbit over an armoury world anyway.

As a player, I do track the cost of buying food every day, and buying rations for the longer-duration journeys, but I don't really carry much of anything; none of us do, the ship or tavern has a kitchen and utensils and beds and such, so we don't bother with carry weight. If it's really heavy, we have our sailors with ropes and tackle to move it around.



I think you should have dramatically fewer hitpoints, or none at all, with damage actually being a described wound with its debilitating effects.

[Malifice]

It's the same situation done differently in my opinion. DMs should create situations so that you shouldn't be able to afford long resting after every fight.

I agree wholly. I use time constraints on quests quite liberally to do just this.

Its also why I want to use the gritty realism variant. To make rests (in particular long rests) much harder to come by.


Looking from that perspective the extra exhaustion is "good" since it can't be immediately removed and can have some actual effect on the character.

It just totally cripples PCs. It encourages them to rest in order to remove it. This screws up pacing and creates a situation where the players want to fall back and rest and the DM is trying to police the 5 minute AD.

I dont want to implement a rules variant that makes resting harder in order to discourage resting (gritty realism), only to then insert a rules variant that encourages the players to rest more (exhaustion at 0HP).

Its why I'm using healing surges. I want the PCs to be able to handle around 4-5 encounters per short rest. Throwing in exhaustion at 0 HP will drag that number back to 2-3 at most. Dungeons will become impossible.


Otherwise I'm on board with your general idea about removing 5 minute adventuring days.

The other thing I am doing is removing all nova temptations (as much as possible). This includes:

1) Paladin smite is limited to 1/ turn.
2) Superiority die are limited to 1/ attack action (plus reaction).
3) Stunning strike is limited to 1/ turn (and costs 2 Ki).
4) GWM/ SS -5/+10 is limited to 1/ attack action.
5) Barbarian rage becomes 1/ short rest, increasing to 2/ short rest at 6th, and 3/ short rest at 12th.

In trying to think of more.


I think you should have dramatically fewer hitpoints, or none at all, with damage actually being a described wound with its debilitating effects.

When I use the term 'gritty realism', Im referring to the rules variant in the DMG that drags out rests (a short rest becomes 8 hours, and long rest becomes a full week - which in Faerun is 10 days).

What this does is it makes resting much harder. Short rest abilities have to be rationed to last you all day long, and long rest abilities are basically only available from the time you leave town to the time you get back and rest for 10 days.

When your wizard leaves town, he has his spell slots. They have to last him until he gets back, and has 10 more days to rest up and study.

Also healing is slowed. You can spend hit dice overnight, but you dont get those HD back (or restore all your HP to full) until you get 10 full days rest.

The game is balanced around short rest resources lasting you around 2-3 medium to hard encounters, and long rest resources (plus all your HP and HD) lasting you around 6-8 encounters (your average dungeon length). Under the gritty rest variant, it becomes much more difficult clearing out your average dungeon featuring half a dozen plus encounters in a single day.

I can handle a slower resource burn over a short rest (players rationing short rest abilities over 5 or so encounters) but the healing is problematic. Thats why Im using healing surges to compensate. They give an extra 50 percent hit points to all PCs effectively, and stop the adventure grinding to a juddering halt.

Also, IMG hit points are as much combat skill, your ability to stay in the fight and luck as anything else. Losing them rarely indicates that you've actually been wounded or even physically struck.

[mephnick]

I kept Exhaustion healing 1 per long rest, but I allow a Medicine check to heal another level to give Medicine something to do.

[rbstr]

I'm not so sure HP is the only issue you really need to deal with.
If you want to upset the typical rationing of resources by adding more encounters per rest you're making things much harder, particularly at lower levels since resource accumulation isn't totally linear. Outside of that I worry about things getting a bit boring when there's nothing left for anyone to do but regular attacks and cantrips.
If you don't want that to happen you've gotta make sure that encounters have more resource-free or low-resource ways to end/get around them. Or other ways to have people regain resources.


Why would Gritty Realism increase the frequency of things to fight?
It's not supposed to, using the official "gritty realism" rule. The point is changing the pacing. The number of encounters per rest shouldn't actually changes so theoretically the balance stays the same. The main thing that does happen, in the official version, is anything spell/power with ~day-long duration is now much worse since the duration and typical rest time doesn't work out.

[Malifice]

I kept Exhaustion healing 1 per long rest, but I allow a Medicine check to heal another level to give Medicine something to do.

I'm removing exhaustion on a short rest (8 hours). I rule Frenzy Barbarians ignore exhaustion penalties while raging also.

I'm using exhaustion for two things:

1) You can accept a level of exhaustion when casting a spell of 5th level or lower instead of expending the spell slot. You cant use this option if you have more than 3 levels of exhaustion or if you are immune to exhaustion.

This rule is implemented to lessen the impact of the gritty realism variant for casters and make sure they always have something useful to do. Even when out of juice (which will be very common at low to mid levels) or when seeking to conserve slots, they have an option outside of just spamming cantrips.... at a cost.

There will be dozens of encounters between long rests (4 or 5 days over a week or two all featuring encounters, with some of those days featuring up to five or six) so casters get hit hard. Really hard. They have to stretch out spell slots over 10-15 or so encounters, and many spells with durations will rarely last past a single encounter instead of several. This mechanic softens the blow.

The side effect of using this option is casters will become even more dependent on martials (disadvantage on all ability checks with just one level of exhaustion) to resolve problems with skill.

Also scrolls (craftable using the new downtime rules in UA) and vitality potions (which cure exhaustion, thus functioning as potions of mana for casters) become necessities.

2) If your familiar dies, you get a level of exhaustion (and you cant resummon one for a tenday).

Say goodbye to kamikaze familiars.

[Malifice]

I'm not so sure HP is the only issue you really need to deal with.
If you want to upset the typical rationing of resources by adding more encounters per rest you're making things much harder, particularly at lower levels since resource accumulation isn't totally linear. Outside of that I worry about things getting a bit boring when there's nothing left for anyone to do but regular attacks and cantrips.

Ive mitigated against that by adding slightly more resources in places (all sorcerers get AC 13+Dex, Mage armor becomes a ritual, spellcasters can accept a level of exhaustion in exchange for a free spell slot, martial adept grants 2 dice etc), changing what rest those resources refresh on (rage becomes X/ Short rest) and placing caps on nova bursts (smite, sup dice, GWM/ SS, Stunning strike etc all have a 1/ turn limit placed on them).

Also scrolls and healing potions exist. As do potions of vitality (which remove exhaustion, letting casters use my mechanism of using exhaustion to cast above). Im using downtime rules released in the new UA last week.

The players will spend several weeks (or months) planning the adventure, scribing scrolls, training, brewing potions, buying, crafting and selling magic items etc (a gold sink) before heading to the adventure location. They are expected to survive with whatever they brought with them and whatever spells they prepared before setting off before returning with loot to rest, rinse and repeat.


It's not supposed to, using the official "gritty realism" rule. The point is changing the pacing. The number of encounters per rest shouldn't actually changes so theoretically the balance stays the same. The main thing that does happen, in the official version, is anything spell/power with ~day-long duration is now much worse since the duration and typical rest time doesn't work out.

It affects it tangentially.

It results in there being a few weeks between long rests instead of one each night.

Over the course of those weeks, you will probably face encounters on a few days per week. Many days will be no encounters, some will feature a single encounter or two, and if you hit a dungeon during your foray out from town youll be cramming several into one day.

So you're probably getting more like 10-15 encounters per long rest instead of 6-8. A short six day trip to a small dungeon and back looks like:

Day one: Leave town, no encounters.
Day two: Combat encounter (short rest)
Day three-four: nothing
Day five: Encounter at night while in camp. Follow critters back to lair for second encounter
Day six: nothing (and short rest from the night before)
Day seven: Locate ruins. 5 combat encounters and 1 trap (then short rest)
Days eight, nine, ten: nothing.
Day eleven: combat encounter (short rest)
Day twelve: Return to town for long rest.

Thats ten encounters between long rests.

[Pex]

Different take, purposely being cynical for a different perspective, not meant to be insulting.

If the problem is truly not wanting a 15 minute adventuring day then the better option is talk with the players and have everyone agree just not to do that. It's not Stormwind Fallacy to encourage a bit more roleplay and worry a little less of needing their next fix of using a class ability. Ensure the players they'll get their moments to shine. That you feel the need to have all these house rules is evidence itself to rethink whether it's worth the trouble. A house rule should be a sentence, not its own Handbook. I'd also have concern as to why you want to force players to play your way. Not wanting players to have a 15 minute adventuring day is not the same thing as only the DM decides when players may rest. Players should care about the game world, but if you make resting a chore they could resent it and be willing to let the Doomsday Cult destroy the world because you refuse them a tenday rest again.

One could argue the faster rest mechanic also discourages the 15 minute adventuring day. A 5 minute breather after combat to get back short rest abilities and spend Hit Dice, the party is ready to go on to chase the bandits before they reach their escape boat by sundown. There would be the problem of spellcasters wanting to nova all their spells since it's only an hour for a long rest, so what you could do is have a bit tougher fights such that spellcasters need to cast their spells but still pace it out so that they only need a one hour lunch long rest. Alternatively add a house rule that spell slots still only refresh once per game day in the morning, Warlock excepting. However, the pace of the game might be hard to handle for running the game session and prepping for it in the first place.

Another option is get rid of short rests altogether and just have the long rest for the night. As others have mentioned in other threads, multiply all short rest resources by 3 and everything resets next morning. It is aesthetically pleasing to have more stuff to do in a day, and there's no metagame concern and angst worrying about when the next short rest would be. Hit Dice for healing is spent out of combat as a player wants. There's no need to waste one hour on a short rest to let the bandits get away.

The Point: The lesser house rules are needed, the better.

[mephnick]

Another option is get rid of short rests altogether and just have the long rest for the night. As others have mentioned in other threads, multiply all short rest resources by 3 and everything resets next morning.

I keep bringing this up but people keep yelling at me. Seems legit I don't know. Sure it opens up some nova options but you still have to deal with the same amount of encounters if you blow your resources early.

[LordCdrMilitant]

IMO, extending the rest time won't make it feel gritty or realistic, just sort of annoying.

I think you can achieve a greater degree of "gritty realism" just through narritive description, painting the world with brown and grey, with rain and snow and dust and mud and disease and dangerous wounds and suffering, etc.

[LeonBH]

Malifice, here's my ideas for my own GR setting. Maybe you will find them useful.

Wizards and Land Druids can change their spells after a short rest.
All classes and class archetypes with spellcasting (except Warlock, Wizard, and Land Druid) regain half their caster level in spell slots ala Arcane Recovery. If multiclassed, they regain half their levels from their highest caster level in a single class.
Barbs -- and only Barbs -- get 1 use of Rage back and recover from 1 level of exhaustion after a short rest.
All classes and class archetypes without spellcasting (except Barb) can roll 1 hit die after a short rest. They have this much temp HP which lasts until the end of the next short rest.
Land Druids can use Natural Recovery 1/day, like the Wizard.
Do not use dungeons or dungeon crawls. Use a survivalist setting where travelling is the bulk of the adventure.
Do not use balanced encounters for the "final destinations" of their travels -- instead let them be vastly stronger or weaker than the PCs, but let the PCs know in advance via their own data gathering efforts. This means they have to choose which fights to pick, or outwit the much stronger opponents. This indirectly highlights the travel aspect.
Keep the PCs low level.


The last 3 points are the crux of this. The normal D&D rules cannot cater to the the feeling of adventure those last 3 points bring, so GR comes in to fix that. GR is, however, not meant for dungeon crawls. It's meant for slow games where combat is supposed to be avoided.

Interesting tidbit where Mage Armor becomes a ritual. You realize it's not a range of Self, so the Mage can buff everyone in the party after a short rest.

[ad_hoc]

You may be over thinking it.

I use it in campaigns where it makes more narrative sense. It impacts the story but it doesn't mean they are having that many more encounters per long rest.

Days can go by in game in a matter of seconds of real time. Just like how 8 hours can go by quickly too.

The main benefit I have found is that it is easier to make time constraints make narrative sense.

The only campaign so far where I haven't used it is CoS as I have found Strahd has plenty of ways to keep the tension level high no matter where the PCs are.

[Potato_Priest]

Although I appreciate the way that gritty realism allows you to more realistically space encounters, I don't like how much downtime it requires. Were I to run a gritty realism game, I'd set short rests to 8 hours, and a long rest is also 8 hours, but you can only do it once a week. That way spellcasters and barbarians still get depleted as normal and you don't have to cram a nonsensical amount of encounters into a day for class balance, but the party can still go on long expeditions without spending ten days in one place doing nothing like a bunch of idiots.

[Malifice]

IMO, extending the rest time won't make it feel gritty or realistic, just sort of annoying.

I think you can achieve a greater degree of "gritty realism" just through narritive description, painting the world with brown and grey, with rain and snow and dust and mud and disease and dangerous wounds and suffering, etc.

For the love of Gruumsh, I'm not aiming for a grittier game. I'm talking about using the gritty rest variant.

Longer rests give me more narrative freedom in that I don't have to constantly be cramming 6-8 encounters in most adventuring days, or contriving time constraints (save the princess by midnight or bad stuff happens) to ensure it happens. It also makes policing the 5MWD easier.

The main risk with it is pacing. While imposing longer rests means they'll be harder to come by, constant 1 day overnight rests every 2-3 encounters in dungeons is counter to my desired pacing. Hence why Im using healing surges.

What I am asking is: What are the mechanical ramifications of making short rests 8 hours, and long rests 10 days that I may have not forseen?

[Potato_Priest]

What I am asking is: What are the mechanical ramifications of making short rests 8 hours, and long rests 10 days that I may have not forseen?

Lewis and Clark style expeditions become much harder. As the party's resources slowly deteriorate from crossing obstacles and dealing with random nature encounters, they are going to have to stop and stay in one place for 10 days, rather than continuing to travel (though perhaps at a slower pace) while they heal as people would likely do in the real world.

Also, if you're using healing surges, you're not gaining much in the way of healing realism, although the encounter timing realism could still be greater. Suddenly regenerating from an arrow wound in 6s isn't realistic, but neither is encountering 6-8 large and dangerous animals when travelling through a Forest for a day.

[Malifice]

Malifice, here's my ideas for my own GR setting. Maybe you will find them useful.
[LIST=1]
Wizards and Land Druids can change their spells after a short rest.

Excellent. Consider it stolen (and to apply to all prepared casters). You can pray/ peruse your spellbook overnight to change spells known.


All classes and class archetypes with spellcasting (except Warlock, Wizard, and Land Druid) regain half their caster level in spell slots ala Arcane Recovery. If multiclassed, they regain half their levels from their highest caster level in a single class.

Arcane recovery in my game works 1/long rest.

Instead of recovering slots, I'm using my 'exhaustion for a spell slot' mechanic as described above. This ensures that all casters always have up to 3 slots per day (of up to max 5th level) in addition to slots known, but each bonus slot costs them a level of exhaustion.

I like the mechanic of magic tiring spellcasters, and the risk v reward it brings.


Barbs -- and only Barbs -- get 1 use of Rage back and recover from 1 level of exhaustion after a short rest.

Ive changed rage to be a X/Short rest resource so thats fixed.

Did the same thing with exhaustion (comes back on a short rest)


All classes and class archetypes without spellcasting (except Barb) can roll 1 hit die after a short rest. They have this much temp HP which lasts until the end of the next short rest.

Way too harsh. Im including healing surges to add daily healing so that dungeons are possible. Im also allowing recharge of (1/4 level, minimum one HD) on a short rest.

With full HP and HD recharing on a 10 day long rest as usual.

This already slows down healing considerably, while still allowing a 5-6 encounter day.


Do not use dungeons or dungeon crawls. Use a survivalist setting where travelling is the bulk of the adventure.

I explicitly plan to use dungeon crawls. In a sandbox setting.


Do not use balanced encounters for the "final destinations" of their travels -- instead let them be vastly stronger or weaker than the PCs, but let the PCs know in advance via their own data gathering efforts. This means they have to choose which fights to pick, or outwit the much stronger opponents. This indirectly highlights the travel aspect.

I use balanced encounters. I will however have higher level dungeons scattered about the place (its going to be a sandbox with the various TFTYP dungeons scattered about the place)


Interesting tidbit where Mage Armor becomes a ritual. You realize it's not a range of Self, so the Mage can buff everyone in the party after a short rest.

Good catch. Thats not really going to benefit anyone really (most classes already have an AC of 13+dex or better but thats an unintended consequence.

I'll change the range to self.

[Cespenar]

Okay, this last post was a good clarification.

So.

An obvious outcome would be casters holding onto their spells a lot longer, and having less options every "normal" turn. Much less buffing and blasting. Only high-gain control spells would be used, or at least that would be more logical.

You could maybe start the casters off with a couple more cantrips?

[Malifice]

The Point: The lesser house rules are needed, the better.

I disagree wholly. Each DM should make the game his own for his players and group.

You might personally dislike houserules, but 5E in particular encourages DMs to use variants and to housrule and use rulings.

This might not be the thread for you if house rules and rules variants arent your thing mate.

[Potato_Priest]

I explicitly plan to use dungeon crawls. In a sandbox setting.


Well, if it's a sandbox, then you don't really precisely know what the players will be doing most of the time, do you?

[Malifice]

Although I appreciate the way that gritty realism allows you to more realistically space encounters, I don't like how much downtime it requires. Were I to run a gritty realism game, I'd set short rests to 8 hours, and a long rest is also 8 hours, but you can only do it once a week. That way spellcasters and barbarians still get depleted as normal and you don't have to cram a nonsensical amount of encounters into a day for class balance, but the party can still go on long expeditions without spending ten days in one place doing nothing like a bunch of idiots.

They wont be doing nothing like idiots. They'll be using downtime (the new rules give them plenty to do in a week or more) and long resting to heal wounds, and study their spellbooks.

[Potato_Priest]

They wont be doing nothing like idiots. They'll be using downtime (the new rules give them plenty to do in a week or more) and long resting to heal wounds, and study their spellbooks.

I still think they should be able to move around while they recover, but that's just me. I suppose it's not SO unreasonable to have to wait a long time to heal your wounds, but as I stated earlier, it is going to feel weird that sometimes the players can heal up in a few seconds with a healing surge, but to recover other wounds takes 10 days of stationary light activity.

That said, I like what you've done with exhaustion. It seems like a good way to keep spellcasters going during the on periods, but making them feel like there's a price for their power.

[LeonBH]

Way too harsh. Im including healing surges to add daily healing so that dungeons are possible. Im also allowing recharge of (1/4 level, minimum one HD) on a short rest.

With full HP and HD recharing on a 10 day long rest as usual.

This already slows down healing considerably, while still allowing a 5-6 encounter day.

I meant, they get to roll 1 HD for free, and whatever they roll will be their temp HP. They can still heal and use HD normally.


I still think they should be able to move around while they recover, but that's just me. I suppose it's not SO unreasonable to have to wait a long time to heal your wounds, but as I stated earlier, it is going to feel weird that sometimes the players can heal up in a few seconds with a healing surge, but to recover other wounds takes 10 days of stationary light activity.

That said, I like what you've done with exhaustion. It seems like a good way to keep spellcasters going during the on periods, but making them feel like there's a price for their power.

I solve this issue with the Healing Kit Dependency rule. To use a Healing Surge, you have to use a healing kit. Which then lets you explain you injecting yourself with some kind of steroid/drug/chemical which heals you.

[Malifice]

Okay, this last post was a good clarification.

So.

An obvious outcome would be casters holding onto their spells a lot longer, and having less options every "normal" turn. Much less buffing and blasting. Only high-gain control spells would be used, or at least that would be more logical.

You could maybe start the casters off with a couple more cantrips?

The exhaustion for a spell slot mechanic is meant to ameliorate much of this.

I've given Sorcs all AC 13+Dex. That leaves them with 2 slots at 1st free. Plus they can take that exhaustion level for a bonus slot (assuming they don't already have 3 or more levels of exhaustion). Then sorcery points come online at 2nd. By third level they have 6 slots per long rest plus 3 sorcery points (and exhaustion for an extra slot). That should be enough.

Also I give them +Cha to sorcery points at 5th level, and spell mastery at 18th.

Wizards get arcane recovery 1/long rest and mage armor is now a ritual.

Bards probably get shafted the most. No slot recovery and 1 level of exhaustion hurts them the most (disadvantage on skills is harsh for a skill monkey).

They might need something to compensate.

[Malifice]

I solve this issue with the Healing Kit Dependency rule. To use a Healing Surge, you have to use a healing kit. Which then lets you explain you injecting yourself with some kind of steroid/drug/chemical which heals you.

IMG Hit points are mostly (luck, skill at avoiding being hurt, parry and doging ability and using your armor to turn a hit into a glancing blow, and your resolve to stay in the battle). Fighters get more because theyre more skillful in combat not because they're hulking up. Very little of it is meat.

I have no problem with healing surges. You're taking a moment to refocus, put your aches and bruises to the back of your mind and steel yourself to push on.

[Pex]

I disagree wholly. Each DM should make the game his own for his players and group.

You might personally dislike houserules, but 5E in particular encourages DMs to use variants and to housrule and use rulings.

This might not be the thread for you if house rules and rules variants arent your thing mate.

Nothing wrong with house rules, but if you have to make so many maybe the game isn't for you.

You want to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day through the gritty rest rules and asked for ideas. My idea was to focus less on house rules and use flavor text. More important than the minutiae of how long a rest is is how often players get to use their stuff because that's where the fun is. I've played such a game, albeit a long rest was three days. Certainly your campaign will be different, but in this campaign we'd meet once a week for four hours for one complete adventure each session. Once in a while an adventure arc took two sessions. During that session in game time took more than one day for some adventures, just a day for others. We never long rested during game play. Long rest was upon finishing the adventure, email the DM for any downtime stuff during the real world week. Next game session was a new adventure set 3 in game days later. You don't have to use that structure, but the point is it was a gritty realism rules game that was not frustrating because players got to use their stuff and not run on fumes just because a long rest was three days.

Yes there were house rules affected by the rest rules. You can take an action to spend HD for healing. Spellcasters without the ability to get back spell slots on a short rest do so by gaining back their proficiency bonus in spell levels after a short rest, i.e. the 8 hours overnight. If anything else cropped up it would be handled as it came up, such as realizing Sorcerers needed to get back their proficiency in sorcery points likewise monks and their ki. However, it did mean warlocks were just Eldritch Blast machines, but that's the fault of the gritty realism rules. Personal opinion warlocks are useless with gritty realism.

Changing the rest mechanic to gritty realism forces more house rules even if you didn't mean to. Without them players will get frustrated not being able to use their class abilities for a substantial real world time. If your goal really is just avoiding the 15 minute work day then my other ideas focused on ways to do so without using gritty realism to avoid house rule creep.

If you don't like the idea, fine. You don't need my permission. I would like to hope that I at least give pause to others considering gritty realism as their solution for another option in case they would be bothered by house rule creep.

Don't get me started on my opinion of 5E not having defined rules on things. That's a whole other can of worms having nothing to do with rests or 15 minutes adventuring days. See any debate about skills. :smallwink:

Yes, it's obvious 5E is not my favorite edition, but I still like it enough to keep playing and talking about it. 5E is not immune to criticism how dare I.

[Malifice]

Nothing wrong with house rules, but if you have to make so many maybe the game isn't for you.

You want to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day through the gritty rest rules and asked for ideas. My idea was to focus less on house rules and use flavor text. More important than the minutiae of how long a rest is is how often players get to use their stuff because that's where the fun is. I've played such a game, albeit a long rest was three days. Certainly your campaign will be different, but in this campaign we'd meet once a week for four hours for one complete adventure each session. Once in a while an adventure arc took two sessions. During that session in game time took more than one day for some adventures, just a day for others. We never long rested during game play. Long rest was upon finishing the adventure, email the DM for any downtime stuff during the real world week. Next game session was a new adventure set 3 in game days later. You don't have to use that structure, but the point is it was a gritty realism rules game that was not frustrating because players got to use their stuff and not run on fumes just because a long rest was three days.

Yes there were house rules affected by the rest rules. You can take an action to spend HD for healing. Spellcasters without the ability to get back spell slots on a short rest do so by gaining back their proficiency bonus in spell levels after a short rest, i.e. the 8 hours overnight. If anything else cropped up it would be handled as it came up, such as realizing Sorcerers needed to get back their proficiency in sorcery points likewise monks and their ki. However, it did mean warlocks were just Eldritch Blast machines, but that's the fault of the gritty realism rules. Personal opinion warlocks are useless with gritty realism.

Changing the rest mechanic to gritty realism forces more house rules even if you didn't mean to. Without them players will get frustrated not being able to use their class abilities for a substantial real world time. If your goal really is just avoiding the 15 minute work day then my other ideas focused on ways to do so without using gritty realism to avoid house rule creep.

If you don't like the idea, fine. You don't need my permission. I would like to hope that I at least give pause to others considering gritty realism as their solution for another option in case they would be bothered by house rule creep.

Don't get me started on my opinion of 5E not having defined rules on things. That's a whole other can of worms having nothing to do with rests or 15 minutes adventuring days. See any debate about skills. :smallwink:

Yes, it's obvious 5E is not my favorite edition, but I still like it enough to keep playing and talking about it. 5E is not immune to criticism how dare I.

I know changing to gritty realism resting requires more house rules and may have unforseen consequences. That's why i started this thread mate.

For example exhaustion recovers on a long rest normally. If using the gritty realism variant it needs to instead recover on a short rest.

Same with diseases. They need to worsen on a short rest instead of a long rest.

Sorcerer spell slots via font of magic need to vanish on a short rest to stop Sorlock abuse.

Arcane recovery needs to happen 1/long rest not 1 every 24 hours or else wizards are better sorcerers than sorcerers.

That kind of thing.

[TrinculoLives]

I made a Short Rest 8 hours, a Long Rest 24 hours, and added in a 5 minute/per hit die Breather (that is, every five minutes of resting one may expend one hit die to heal yourself). I also altered magic items, etc. to reset after a Long Rest and not daily, so as to keep the power of wands and what-not in check.

I've been using it for a while, and I'm quite fond of it. But then we're always in love with our darlings, and should be encouraged to kill them off when necessary!

[Sariel Vailo]

Crippling damage and lingering damage.along with the realistic rest variants. Also a rule i use training for fighting styles a class can learn up to two. But only through training a year of downtime paying for it with gold and time. But it helps use rules depending on the settings and rules for the world you see. Monstrous pcs used in addition to the normal ones. Its your world your players play by the rules you set in your reality as either the protagonists or the antagonists.

[Talamare]

You now have 2 HP systems
Your Vitality, and your HP

HP works as normal
Vitality is equal to Proficiency + Con Modifier

Each time you drop to 0, you must immediately make a Death Saving Throw.
Each time you fail a Death Saving Throw, your Vitality is reduced by 1.
You regain 1 Vitality after a Long Rest.
If you ever lose half your maximum Vitality in 1 day, you suffer a Permanent Injury. (Minimum 2 Vitality lost)
Upon reaching 0 Vitality, your body have failed and you die.
Each time you are Resurrected, your Maximum Vitality is reduced by 1.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know changing to gritty realism resting requires more house rules and may have unforseen consequences. That's why i started this thread mate.

For example exhaustion recovers on a long rest normally. If using the gritty realism variant it needs to instead recover on a short rest.

Same with diseases. They need to worsen on a short rest instead of a long rest.

Sorcerer spell slots via font of magic need to vanish on a short rest to stop Sorlock abuse.

Arcane recovery needs to happen 1/long rest not 1 every 24 hours or else wizards are better sorcerers than sorcerers.

That kind of thing.
Apart from things like diseases that are based on real-time, you shouldn't need that many changes when using Gritty Realism-- provided you aren't messing with encounters/rest at the same time. The goal of the variant is to keep attrition as a factor in games focused on wilderness exploration, social intrigue... really, anything other than a high-combat dungeon crawl. It lets you stretch your 6-8 recommended encounters/long rest over a week of game-time, working in more downtime and travel-time and stuff.

[vexedart]

If I do run the long rest variant, I have it only like that outside of civilized locations.
Example, On a road in a forest? Long rest.
Inside baulders gate? Original rest rules.

Helps speed the game along.

What about spells who's intention if to give a safe short or long rest? Are they useless now because of duration? Leo's tiny hut, mords magnificent mansion, role trick.

[samcifer]

I can sleep just fine... So long as the clowns don't eat me

[strangebloke]

TBH it all comes down to how you structure your game. The rest rules just determine the *rules*

Make it either 2/day? Fine, the decision to use SRs is purely stategic.

Ignore short rests altogether, use healing surge, and triple SR resources? Fine, resource use is purely driven by strategic concerns.

Use gritty rest rules? Fine, you just have to make sure that you never put them in a position where they will die without rest but cannot afford to take one.

If you don't want a FMAD you need to add time pressure. So when you add time pressure, just break it all down. Every adventuring *day* (whether an actual day or a month) should be pretty much broken down into various shorter challenges that must be strung together. All using or not using gritty rules does is change the scale of your time pressure to a more realistic measure.

And yes your players will break your timetable into pieces, either bypassing encounters or creating new ones, but that's fine. Makes the game a little less sterile and more reactive.

Actually, I think the harder question is stuff like spell durations and the like. It's sort of a problem if you multiply all durations by ten, because then, conceivably, what was formerly a ten-minute spell could last for a whole adventuring *day,* which upsets the balance. I just had all the eight-hour spells last for as long as the player wanted them to, excepting that he would have to cancel them to properly 'rest.'