Reach weapons question

[madtinker]

I'm designing an encounter, and I want to make a pack of orcs more deadly by giving them reach weapons and having them fight in formation. The question is: if you have two rows of orcs with, say, longspears, can the second row of orcs effectively attack enemies adjacent to the first row?



B
B
B
B


A
A
A
A




X




Y




Or, stating it another way, It is clear that in the table above, with a reach weapon the first three orcs in row A can attack an enemy at Y, but can any of the orcs in row B attack the enemy at X? Logic says it might be difficult since he has cover from the orcs in row A. What do you think?

[J-H]

Yes, they can, but +4ac from Cover applies.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover

[Doctor Awkward]

Keep in mind that most reach weapons do not allow you to attack adjacent foes.

So if Orcs A and B in your table were all armed with longspears, and the columns were numbered like so:



1
2
3
4


B
B
B
B


A
A
A
A




X




Y





Target X could only be hit by Orc 1A, 2B, 3B, and 4B
And Target Y could only be hit by Orc 1A, 2A and 3A

That said, you can do a phalanx just fine with only longspears. Just remember to have the ones in the front row set them against a charge, and have the second row concentrate on hitting anything that gets through.

If you want to mix it up, the Phalanx Fighting feat out of complete warrior allows you to recreate a shield wall if you give them a light weapon instead of a reach weapon.

[Khedrac]

Keep in mind that most reach weapons do not allow you to attack adjacent foes.

So if Orcs A and B in your table were all armed with longspears, and the columns were numbered like so:



1
2
3
4


B
B
B
B


A
A
A
A




X




Y





Target X could only be hit by Orc 1A, 1B, 2B, 3B, and 4B
And Target Y could only be hit by Orc 1A, 2A, and 3A, and 4A
Fixed that for you.
Remember the second diagonal equalling 15' explicitly does not apply to weapon reach to prevent the unthreatened route to the wielder.

As for whether the Cover AC bonus applies, that is actually unclear but I think the general opinion is that it does not apply:
Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC.Reach weapons are not ranged weapons.

[Dagroth]

Yeah, Khedrac got it all.

All Orcs in Row B can attack Target X without Penalty, as can Orc 1A.

All Orcs in Row A can attack Target Y without Penalty.

Orcs 2A, 3A & 4A cannot attack Target X, unless they have Armor Spikes (which is a good idea for Reach Weapon wielders).

[J-H]

Cover still applies...


To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). ....

When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

[Fizban]

Looks like people got the reach weapons/not ranged/still cover bit. Shield Wall from Heroes of Battle work with any shield and weapon size but drops the reflex bonus, a net gain I'd say. There's a Coordinated Shot feat in there which makes your allies not block your shots, but nothing for reach weapons.

[madtinker]

That clarifies everything very nicely. Thanks, one and all, for your help.

[Jay R]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a2/9d/54/a29d5475a26f2025809e531d4e38e587.jpg

[Khedrac]

Cover still applies...
And that's the bit that makes it debatable and, to a degree, a DM's call.
Let's quote the entire section.

Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Low Obstacles and Cover
A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Cover and Reflex Saves
Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.

Cover and Hide Checks
You can use cover to make a Hide check. Without cover, you usually need concealment to make a Hide check.

Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Varying Degrees of Cover
In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.
The text about "use the ranged rules for reach weapons" is in the section which shows how to work out if obstacles grant cover; this is in a totally separate paragraph to the one about Soft Cover, which is cover from creatures.
So, does it apply? Well normal English reading of the that section would not take the part about "use the ranged rules" and extrapolate it down to the Soft Cover section; but that does not mean that one would be wrong to do so. Also the rules elswhere are very good and putting the relevant sentence in a totally different place.

In short, the SRD is ambiguous on this. I think I can safely say that the "normal" interpretation is not to use the Ranged part of Soft Cover without extra instruction to do so that is not present. However, just because that is the "normal" interpretation does not mean that that is the correct interpretation. Without clarification from WotC (not going to happen unless it is in the Rules Compenidum that I don't have) we are not going to have an offical answer on this beyond "ask your DM".
If the DM is me, soft cover does not affect reach melee weapons.

[Jay R]

I would rule that cover does not apply to the one obvious target, but might apply to others to the side.

I would rule that way because I've held a spear behind a shield wall, in the SCA. The stance is chosen to make one target available.