About bards and non-support roles

[BartonBlackburn]

Everywhere I read, the bard is stated as the best support class.

So what if I don't want to play a support character but the bard class fits the concept for my pc history (a half-elf unwanted baby left in an abandoned church, adopted by fey people who learns about magic and trickery)? I can see it as some kind of pied-piper, playing with the church's organ and/or a flute and with a strong connection to nature and the faerie world.

Plant growt spell is kind a must just for roleplaying reasons so I'm between 3 classes: bard, druid and warlock, but the druid is very hippie-nature-treehugger, and the warlock feels a bit limited on the casting side.


Does the bard fit's another roles? I mean, what can the bard offer besides buffing (a role that will be well done by the party cleric)?

[Specter]

It can fill almost any role, even two of them. You can debuff with the bard spells, you can heal, you can be the party, the party tracker and/or the party's trapmaster. You can be a good blaster with proper Magical Secrets, and with a bit of optimization a decent tank. The question is: what role do you want to fill, if not support?

[BartonBlackburn]

That's a good question Specter.
I guess I would like to have a good balance between blasting and controlling/trickering.

[BiPolar]

That's a good question Specter.
I guess I would like to have a good balance between blasting and controlling/trickering.

If you're less into the pure bard thing and want more blastiness, the dreaded Warlock 2 dip may be perfect for you. YOu get sustained Eldritch Blast goodness with your charisma modifier, and can build a Lore Bard around control/trickery fun. You'll be delaying your Bard progression a bit, which may be frustrating depending on when/where you do it (delaying magical secrets, cutting words, expertise, etc.) Otherwise, you can grab EB as one of your secrets, but you won't get to add your charisma modifier.

[nickl_2000]

Based on your background, check out the College of Glamour from Unearthed Arcana. It is certainly the most fitting of the colleges.

[Specter]

That's a good question Specter.
I guess I would like to have a good balance between blasting and controlling/trickering.

Here is a sample list of spells to grab with your Magical Secrets for that, assuming Lore Bard:

6: Fireball, Slow
10: Conjure Volley, Wall of Force
14: Bones of the Earth, Forcecage
18: Meteor Swarm, Wish

[Steampunkette]

Everywhere I read, the bard is stated as the best support class.

So what if I don't want to play a support character but the bard class fits the concept for my pc history (a half-elf unwanted baby left in an abandoned church, adopted by fey people who learns about magic and trickery)? I can see it as some kind of pied-piper, playing with the church's organ and/or a flute and with a strong connection to nature and the faerie world.

Plant growt spell is kind a must just for roleplaying reasons so I'm between 3 classes: bard, druid and warlock, but the druid is very hippie-nature-treehugger, and the warlock feels a bit limited on the casting side.


Does the bard fit's another roles? I mean, what can the bard offer besides buffing (a role that will be well done by the party cleric)?

So... I hate to say it, but it sounds like you're looking for a Warlock with the Entertainer background... Which is just as much of a minstrel outcast as any Bard.

Go with the Fey Pact and RP it out as not a -deal- you signed, but learning Fey magics rather than straight up wizardly scholastics. Or go full bore with it and have it be a multitude of deals with a wide variety of different Fey. In either case, use Eldritch Blast for ranged damage/blastiness,

Your Patron's main abilities start out with a Charm/Fear radius (You choose which creatures get which effect) and eventually grow into locking a person's mind into an illusion, effectively removing them from a fight. That's in addition to any illusion or enchantment invocations you might pick up. Grab Pact of the Chain and you can bring a fairy-friend from home with you on your adventures.

Throw on the Entertainer Background for musical ability and getting free rooms at taverns, and rely on your high charisma skill for everything else a bard might do...

[DivisibleByZero]

That's a good question Specter.
I guess I would like to have a good balance between blasting and controlling/trickering.

Playing a Bard as support only really comes if they use their Bardic Inspiration to hand out Inspiration Dice.
If you use your BI for anything else, the Bard actually offers very little in support other than healing.
He's actually much better at being a controller/debuffer than a traditional support because his spell list is aimed that way, and because buffing is much less impactful due to the concentration rules in 5e.
So really, all it takes to do what you want is either a dip into Sorcerer or Warlock (or Magic Initiate) for some at-will damage via cantrips, and/or properly chosen Magical Secrets.
Heck, depending on which College you go with, you may not even want to hand out BI to the party and choose to keep it for yourself instead.

[Millface]

Honestly... Lore Bards get the best spell selection in the game, as long as you don't get too spread out with it they don't have to be support at all.

They already come stocked with control in Hold/Dominate spells, plus battlefield control in stinking cloud/fog cloud, then later force cage, so no need to take much from control there. They also get Cure Wounds without having to waste secrets.

6th: Fireball, Conjure Barrage
10th: I know you said blasty, but this unlocks two of the most singularly useful spells in the game with Polymorph and Commune (Commune is just busted, IMO, when it comes to keeping the game moving)
14th: Disintegrate, then Chain Lightning or Wall of Thorns (Druid in my group does HELLA damage with WoT with smart placement) Or, if you're feeling really cheeky, Simulacrum of a Sorcerer in the party, because he can use SP to replenish spells, but that's sort of RAI breaking. Still, gives you a snow turret.
18th: Wish, True Polymorph

As others have said, it's all about your secrets. You can be good at blasting while also being the single most useful PC in your party in almost every situation. You can pick locks with the thief, dispel magical traps with the wizard, bust out control if damage is handled, or damage if it isn't, even emergency heals. Commune when you all get stuck, and polymorph into something that can blend or, later, munch.

[JAL_1138]

Playing a Bard as support only really comes if they use their Bardic Inspiration to hand out Inspiration Dice.
If you use your BI for anything else, the Bard actually offers very little in support other than healing.
He's actually much better at being a controller/debuffer than a traditional support because his spell list is aimed that way, and because buffing is much less impactful due to the concentration rules in 5e.

Absolutely this. Bards have very few buffs to pass out besides Bardic Inspiration dice (and Greater Invisibility or Polymorph, which are admittedly fantastic buffs). Enhance Ability and Heroism are on the list, but they're not really worth it. There's no Bless, Fly, Circle of Power, Elemental Weapon, etc. on there. But as debuffers/controllers they're fantastic. Heat Metal, Hold Person/Monster, Dominate Person/Monster, Hypnotic Pattern, etc. The bard's job is largely to mess with the enemy's ability to function, not to make party members stronger (other than healing a bit). Oddly enough, Sorcerers can be better buffers than bards. Especially self-buffers, since they actually have some good self-buffs on their list that bards don't get by default (and often shouldn't spend a Secret on), but for the party as well. Twin Spell makes them far better than Bards at it.



So really, all it takes to do what you want is either a dip into Sorcerer or Warlock (or Magic Initiate) for some at-will damage via cantrips, and/or properly chosen Magical Secrets.
Heck, depending on which College you go with, you may not even want to hand out BI to the party and choose to keep it for yourself instead.

For a versatile blaster bard, I'd suggest the Warlock 2 dip for (Agonizing) Eldritch Blast and Hex. Puts you on rough par, actually a bit ahead at 17th level and up, with a Sharpshooter-ing Valor Bard who isn't using Elemental Weapon or Swift Quiver to burst a bit higher (although the VB will be a good bit higher DPR for a good part of their career, and as mentioned can buff themselves to burst higher).

While the consistent cantrip damage is higher with Warlock via Agonizing Blast (Sorcs can Twin, but a 2-level dip doesn't net a lot of Sorcery Points to do it with), Sorcerers with the right metamagic and Evokers are better at AoE blasing, because they can exclude allies from blasts and eliminate the friendly-fire problem. But a Bard with the right Secrets is still competent--not much worse as a blaster than most non-Evoker wizards, aside from having much more limited spell selection. You can pick up Fireball, Cone of Cold, and eventually Meteor Swarm. Might want to pick up Cloudkill since Forcecage is already on the Bard list; that's a nasty combo.


Other versatile builds often go for one-or-two-level dips (or six-level multiclass, in the case of Paladin). Life Cleric 1/Lore 19 is a quite good healer and picks up a smidge of buffing via Bless, and can do anything else a Lore Bard already can at a one-level delay. Fighter 2/ Valor 18 or Fighter 1/ Valor 19 (Dex build) can be a great ranged damage-dealer with Sharpshooter (and preferably Crossbow Expert as well) in addition to their abilities as a debuffer/controller and healer. Paladin 2/Valor 18 is less-squishy than most fullcasters and has a solid melee burst damage option if you need to step up to the frontline. Paladin 6/Lore 14 is a terriffic gish that can tank a fair bit and brings some great party buffs via spell selection and the Paladin level-6 aura.

A well-built bard, often but not necessarily with a bit of multiclassing, can fill nearly any party role adequately enough to at least get by, and in some cases excel. They're the Swiss Army Knife of 5e classes.

[BartonBlackburn]

So... I hate to say it, but it sounds like you're looking for a Warlock with the Entertainer background... Which is just as much of a minstrel outcast as any Bard.

I wasn't considering the background. I'm quite new to 5th.
I've started to think this build and it may work with my roleplaying idea. If the DM is not a jerk with the short rest it would work.


Warlock 20 (Entertainer background)

Lvl 1)
Cantrips: EB - Friends
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour)

Lvl 2)
Cantrips: EB - Friends
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex

Lvl 3) Pact of the Tome
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex - Phantasmal force

Lvl 4)
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh - Guidance
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex - Phantasmal force - Hold Person

Lvl 5)
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh - Guidance
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces + Devil's Sight (or Eldritch spear)
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant - Hex - Phantasmal force - Hold Person - Hipnotic Pattern

[BartonBlackburn]

Paladin 2/Valor 18 is less-squishy than most fullcasters and has a solid melee burst damage option if you need to step up to the frontline.

What about Paladin 2 / Lore 18? I'm not very fond of Valor... I will two caster levels after the others, but it's not so hard.

[Steampunkette]

I wasn't considering the background. I'm quite new to 5th.
I've started to think this build and it may work with my roleplaying idea. If the DM is not a jerk with the short rest it would work.


Warlock 20 (Entertainer background)

Lvl 1)
Cantrips: EB - Friends
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour)

Lvl 2)
Cantrips: EB - Friends
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex

Lvl 3) Pact of the Tome
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex - Phantasmal force

Lvl 4)
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh - Guidance
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant (flavour) - Hex - Phantasmal force - Hold Person

Lvl 5)
Cantrips: EB - Friends - Vicious Mockery - Message - Shillelagh - Guidance
Invocations: Agonizing Blast + Mask of Many Faces + Devil's Sight (or Eldritch spear)
Spells: Sleep - Unseen Servant - Hex - Phantasmal force - Hold Person - Hipnotic Pattern

I think that's a pretty great build seed with one tiny note: You get Invocations at 2.

[BartonBlackburn]

Based on your background, check out the College of Glamour from Unearthed Arcana. It is certainly the most fitting of the colleges.

I wasn't aware of College of Glamour. It's awesome and flavourful, but we are not going to use anything of UA until it becomes official and tested. There is some broken stuff there.

[nickl_2000]

I wasn't aware of College of Glamour. It's awesome and flavourful, but we are not going to use anything of UA until it becomes official and tested. There is some broken stuff there.

Yes, parts are extremely broken, especially when you get to level 6 and get the Bardic feature "Font of inspiration" So many temporary hit points!

[DivisibleByZero]

What about Paladin 2 / Lore 18? I'm not very fond of Valor... I will two caster levels after the others, but it's not so hard.

The problems with going Lore on a Pally dip are twofold:
You don't get extra attack, and therefore the fact that the melee cantrips are not on the bard list means that you'll have to spend slots on smiting all the time in order to meaningfully contribute in melee. In contrast, warlocks and sorcerers both get access to those cantrips, and so they're better choices if you want to use more of a caster base.
It's not that Lore is bad, it's just that Valor Bard (or on a Blade from UA) are much better.
If you wanted to go with Lore, you're better off with a Pally 6 multiclass rather than a Pally 2 dip.

[JAL_1138]

What about Paladin 2 / Lore 18? I'm not very fond of Valor... I will two caster levels after the others, but it's not so hard.

Extra Attack is the deciding factor. If going for Lore, go Paladin 6 (or Paladin 7 if Oath of the Ancients). Even with Smites, Extra Attack (and usually PAM and/or GWM, or Shield Master if sword-and-board, since you never get Improved Divine Smite from Paladin 11) is necessary to have enough melee damage to keep up. Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 18 can get away with not having Extra Attack by using Twin Spell on Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade, but bards can't pull that trick off (Valor can eventually get a bonus action weapon attack after casting a bard spell or cantrip, though, which they could Smite with if they have Paladin levels). You need Extra Attack to nova well enough for it to be worth doing. So if you go Paladin/Lore, stick with Paladin for six levels and get Extra Attack, Channel Divinity, some more Paladin spells, and the Aura of Protection too.

EDIT: Ninja'd. That's what I get for typing on a cell phone (and getting distracted for 20 minutes).

[KnotaGuru]

Lore bard is great. Cutting words can change the flow of a battle and healing word can keep the martials on their feet. Depending on your party, faerie fire is fantastic. I cast it often since my group has 4 martials! That and hypnotic pattern are often my go to. Bard has a lot of versatility with spells and skills (don't overlook skills!) but fall short in the damage compartment. Using spell slots to cast your damage spells will run you dry, even if you spend magical secrets on big ones (fireball, destructive wave, chain lightning...). Bards don't have a spell slot regeneration mechanic like the wizard & land druid or even the warlock & sorcerer. Bards also don't have damaging cantrips, which is where other casters can save spell slots and still cause damage. Bard's job is control.

Warlock's don't have many damage spells either outside EB, but you can spam it all day. Fey lock still gives you access to faerie fire, plant growth, hypnotic pattern.... You'll get invocations too. At-will disguise self can be really fun depending on the campaign. And going pact pf the tome w/book of ancient secrets really increases your options and party contributions (guidance, find familiar...). Magic items are something else to consider. Most damaging items, such as a staff of fire, require attunement by a wizard/warlock/druid. As a warlock, you won't have the versatility of the bard, so it really depends on what you want to do and what the party has and how the party plays.

[JAL_1138]

On a tangent about Lore vs Valor, I feel like Valor is a bit undervalued.

Combat Inspiration isn't quite what Cutting Words is, but if you have other things that compete for your Reaction, like a Polearm Master build, Warcaster, or taking the Shield spell somehow or another, it can work out a bit better (for you anyway) since you can pass it out before combat and your allies use it on their own Reactions rather than yours. Of course, it can't be used to debuff an enemy skill check or an attack against you, so I do give the edge to Cutting Words. I usually recommend that people ignore Combat Inspiration's extra-damage capability unless they're nova-ing and have critted, and otherwise save it for the boost to AC against a brutal attack, a saving throw against a spell, or a skill check with serious consequences (e.g., escaping a Remorhaz' grapple/bite).

Medium armor is an odd duck; light armor will eventually match the best AC it can give (without a feat) if going Dex, and without taking Disadvantage to stealth like half-plate gives. Although until you do max out Dex, it does give a really nice boost. If going Str, you should probably start Paladin anyway, so it's redundant--you'll get heavy armor from Paladin and shouldn't bother with Medium.

Likewise, the weapon proficiencies are sort of redundant, because a Dex build is likely going for hand crossbows, or will pick up longbow proficiency from the near-mandatory Fighter or Ranger levels. Although it can definitely help early on, if you wait to take your Fighter or Ranger levels until after you've picked up Sharpshooter (and possibly until after you've picked up your 10th-level Magical Secrets--I actually like starting Bard on a ranged build to get the extra skill proficiencies, but Fighters do get Con save proficiency, which can be huge for your Concentration spells, so it's arguably the more optimized choice to start Fighter). Medium armor proficiency can be quite nice if you happen to find magic armor, though.

Still, despite those peculiarities/redundancies, Valor can be quite powerful. Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and Elemental Weapon (if no magic weapon) or Swift Quiver (if you have a magic weapon), plus a multiclass dip to pick up Archery Style, can make it one of the better ranged-damage dealers in the game and still get 9th-level spells. Go virtually toe-to-toe with the Ranger for damage (and come out ahead for a good part of your career) and still be able to cast Wish and other high-level spells. That makes for an extremely versatile, powerful character that can fill multiple roles in the party.

[Honest Tiefling]

If you're less into the pure bard thing and want more blastiness, the dreaded Warlock 2 dip may be perfect for you. YOu get sustained Eldritch Blast goodness with your charisma modifier, and can build a Lore Bard around control/trickery fun. You'll be delaying your Bard progression a bit, which may be frustrating depending on when/where you do it (delaying magical secrets, cutting words, expertise, etc.) Otherwise, you can grab EB as one of your secrets, but you won't get to add your charisma modifier.

I am quoting this because the backstory really does, in my mind, fit a Bard/Warlock, maybe even a pure warlock following Steampunkette's suggestion. The backstory just fits so well!