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ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-29, 02:16 PM
Okay, my GM shut down my previous attempt at creating a buff/control Gish. He specifically shot down both the feat to get a cleric domain and shot down trade familiar to get access to a cleric domain. I told him that I needed to blow spells known on the cleric spells I had access to, and pointed out I specifically did *NOT* get the domain power. He still shot it down. So my Sorc4/Pal2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChamp5/WarWeaver5/xxx3 is dead. Long live the CoDzilla!

Here's the deal, though. DMM is specifically allowed, because it's in a Complete, but he shot down Nightsticks. But that's okay, I'm not looking at DMM Persisting anything. Nope, I'm going to be DMM Chain on a Reach Buff. The guy who was going to be a cleric got miffed at loosing nightsticks so he decided to roll a Druidzilla instead. He's going to end up some obnoxiously obscene Natural Spell build with casting and better melee than the tank, ending with Planar Shepherd. He's more than happy to let me take the place of healbot and buffmonky.

Okay, so here's my idea... I'm going to go RSoP. The GM said that if you go with Spontanious Domain (Healing), you are casting them as domain spells, so you get to auto-max and auto-empower the heals. That's kind of an automatic 'hell yea' in my book. That's like the cleric version of Incantatrix. Then I'm going to grab Extra Turning (already required for RSoP) then Chain Spell, Reach Spell, and DMM Persist.

Rather than being a holy terror in melee with DMM Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might, I'm going to be Mr. Buffster with DMM Chain Reach GMW/MV every day to give everyone's armor, shields, and weapons a +5 so they can focus on getting bonus-equivelants on their gear and not loose bonuses. Will also be buffing up people with things like Bull's Strength in combat, using the DMM Chain Reach trick to hit the whole party at once.

a) Is there any way to get the rounds/level buffs on my party to last all day?

b) I was thinking Human for my race, I'm wanting a high Cha for extra turn attempts to fuel my brand of DMM Cheeze. If I can get a Dex of 16, I will go with Mithral Full Plate, otherwise I'll just stick to Adamantine for the DR 3/-

c) Is War Weaver an arcane-specific PrC, or can Clerics apply as well? If so, I can eliminate my DMM Chain cheeze and just cast through weave.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-29, 06:40 PM
Here's the deal, though. DMM is specifically allowed, because it's in a Complete, but he shot down Nightsticks.

a) Is there any way to get the rounds/level buffs on my party to last all day?

b) I was thinking Human for my race, I'm wanting a high Cha for extra turn attempts to fuel my brand of DMM Cheeze. If I can get a Dex of 16, I will go with Mithral Full Plate, otherwise I'll just stick to Adamantine for the DR 3/-

c) Is War Weaver an arcane-specific PrC, or can Clerics apply as well? If so, I can eliminate my DMM Chain cheeze and just cast through weave.[/QUOTE]

a) DMM is the first thing that springs to mind.

b) The Planetouched Human +0 LA would get most of the Aasimar benefits.

c) The War Weaver Entry Requirement HoB is the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells so you and your DM would need to work out a variant or house rule it.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-29, 06:59 PM
Reach Spell is a +2 adjustment that turns a Touch spell into a Ray spell with a range of 30 feet - it's now fixed range, and subject to Persisting. As a Ray, it's also subject to things like Split Ray.

But if you want to play the heal-bot, nothing is quite so amusing as a DMM Persistent Vigor spell (Mass Lesser, Vigorous Circle, whatever; potentially, you can grant the entire party Fast Healing 1 all day at 3rd). Fast Healing all day - who needs Wands of Cure Light Wounds? Just rest for a bit. Do note that depending on the DM, this may or may not work - the Vigor line includes a spell duration cap in the spell text, which may or may not be overridden by Persistent Spell.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-29, 07:09 PM
Reach Spell is a +2 adjustment that turns a Touch spell into a Ray spell with a range of 30 feet - it's now fixed range, and subject to Persisting. As a Ray, it's also subject to things like Split Ray.

Does that work for an Archmage's Reach ability as well?

Jack_Simth
2007-07-29, 07:14 PM
Does that work for an Archmage's Reach ability as well?
In theory, yes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-29, 07:36 PM
Reach Spell is a +2 adjustment that turns a Touch spell into a Ray spell with a range of 30 feet - it's now fixed range, and subject to Persisting. As a Ray, it's also subject to things like Split Ray.

How is it subject to Persisting when it isn't a Personal or an emmanation centered on caster?


But if you want to play the heal-bot, nothing is quite so amusing as a DMM Persistent Vigor spell (Mass Lesser, Vigorous Circle, whatever; potentially, you can grant the entire party Fast Healing 1 all day at 3rd). Fast Healing all day - who needs Wands of Cure Light Wounds? Just rest for a bit. Do note that depending on the DM, this may or may not work - the Vigor line includes a spell duration cap in the spell text, which may or may not be overridden by Persistent Spell.

He won't let Persistant Vigor fly.

Too bad on the War Weaver, I guess it would be rather broken as a Cleric PrC, even moreso than as a Wizard one...

Jack_Simth
2007-07-29, 07:49 PM
How is it subject to Persisting when it isn't a Personal or an emmanation centered on caster?


Persistent Spell [Metamagic]
Prerequisite
Extend Spell.

Benefit:
A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spellís actual level. (Emphasis added; Link to feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell))

It doesn't have to be an emanation, just have a fixed range.



He won't let Persistant Vigor fly.

Pity. It's actually one of the least broken (and by broken, I mean makes other classes redundant) things you can do with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell); compare to Find Traps (makes the Rogue cry), Divine Favor/Divine Power/Righteous Might (makes the Fighter cry). That particular use makes the Fighter (and related classes) and Rogue (and related classes) rule the roost (they can now go through infinite hordes of mooks - Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid can't do that ), provided you can convince the DM to do a lot more endurance runs than normal. Other than the auto-stabilize, all it really does is save you a few wands of Cure Light Wounds at the cost of a lot of turning attempts and three or four feats.

And you can get basically the same effect - with no rules-bendy shenanigans - by taking a 1 level dip in - what was it, Dragon Shaman? - for the Vigourous Aura (fast healing 1 in a radius for everyone who's below half).


Too bad on the War Weaver, I guess it would be rather broken as a Cleric PrC, even moreso than as a Wizard one...
Eh, Clerics don't really need Prestige Classes, honestly. They're strong enough as it is - even without supplements.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-29, 08:11 PM
... I'm wanting a high Cha for extra turn attempts to fuel my brand of DMM Cheeze ...


You should also get Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium pg 120, 1000 gp) which gives you extra turn/rebuke undead attempt for each of the following prerequisites that you meet:
- at least 5 ranks in knowledge religion
- at least one divine feat
- Improved Turning feat.

I think its very likely that you'll meet all of them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-30, 02:22 AM
Oh... my... Reach can be used to Persist...

Now what I need is to find a way to get enough turn attempts to be able to DMM Persist Chain Reach buffs.

I figure Bear's Endurance would be a good one, so would Freedom of Movement. Then Chain Reach GMW and Magic Vestments. That would occur in the morning every day to make everyone pure crack. Maybe Persist Chain Reach True Sight? That 250 would add up every day, but boy would it be worth it...

So, how can I get bucketloads of turn attempts without nightsticks?

Cybren
2007-07-30, 02:42 AM
Extra Spell + cha-boosters?

Jack_Simth
2007-07-30, 06:17 AM
Well, a 1-level dip in Hierophant (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/hierophant.html) can net you Divine Reach... although it does cost a level of spell access.

Edit:
Mostly, though, you're looking at a Human with two Flaws, the Planning (Domain Power: Extend Spell as a bonus feat) and Undeath (Domain Power: Extra Turning as a bonus feat) Domains, taking Persistant Spell and DMM(Persistant Spell) at 1st (for Prayer, mostly), then grabbing Reach Spell and Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) through the Flaws, Chain Spell at 3rd, possibly Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell) at 6th, then loading up on Extra Turning at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th.

At 20th, you'll have 23+Charisma Bonus turning attempts. You can probably drop Divine Metamaigic (Reach Spell), as by the time you'll really need it, you'll have the spell slots to burn. Swapping that out for Extra Turning puts you at 27 turning attempts per day. Chain Spell is, what, +3, with Persistant Spell being +6? So for 11 turning attempts, you get to Chain and Persist an already Reached spell. You get two of these, and Chain a Reach spell that has a long duration (GMW, say, or Magic Vestments) - possibly Extended.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-30, 07:25 AM
Hmm... for low cost with a couple of buffs, you could use the metamagic rods. Take a rod of lesser extend, throw on a reach/chain Magic vestments, and a GMW, and remember the bead of karma. 48 hours at level 20 of +5 armour, shields, and weapons (for the party!), is a nice deal for 2 8'th level spell slots. DMM might help there as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-30, 11:13 PM
Well, a 1-level dip in Hierophant (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/hierophant.html) can net you Divine Reach... although it does cost a level of spell access.

That stinks... Archmage gets spell progression and Hierophant doesn't... but it does work


Edit:
Mostly, though, you're looking at a Human with two Flaws, the Planning (Domain Power: Extend Spell as a bonus feat) and Undeath (Domain Power: Extra Turning as a bonus feat) Domains, taking Persistant Spell and DMM(Persistant Spell) at 1st (for Prayer, mostly), then grabbing Reach Spell and Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) through the Flaws, Chain Spell at 3rd, possibly Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell) at 6th, then loading up on Extra Turning at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th.
Flaws are prohibited. I have to have Pelor as my diety to be RSoP to auto-empower and maxamize all my healing spells through the spontanious domain (healing) variant, so I can't get the Planning or Undeath domains. This puts a hamper on it.

Do I have to purchase DMM for every feat I wish to apply it to? That sounds... expensive feat-wise.

Let's see... Human Cleric of Pelor (that fits flavor-wise). 1st level: Extra Turning and Extend Spell. 3rd: Persist. 6th: Chain Spell. 9th: DMM Persist, and 12th: DMM Chain Spell. That would at least get the basics covered.

With a Charisma of 18 to start out with, that would give me 7 turn attempts. With Extra Turning, that gives him 11 turn attempts. If I grab a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, I can use that to do the daily spells. This gives me three of them, up to level six. So, I go DMM Persist, Metamagic Rod of Chain, Divine Reach... and get no spell adjustment for three daily buffs. Now, GMW and MV don't need DMM Persist, thankfully, due to hours/level duration, I can find ways to get that bumped up to caster level 24 through items (Ioun Stone and such).
Now then, I figure the next most useful all-day buff would be either True Seeing or Freedom of Movement. Well... I can DMM Persist, Metamagic rod of Chain, Divine Reach Freedom of Movement for a cost of six turn attempts. Not too shabby, I've got 5 left.
Now, True Seeing has a cost of 250 per cast, so that's rather expensive to do on a daily basis, but how about something like Bear's Endurance to give everyone a +4 to Con? Now then, I've run out of uses in my Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, so I'll have to pay for it. Fortunately, it's only a 2nd level spell normally, so +3 makes it a 5th level spell. If I can manage a Cha of 20 (and no reason why I shouldn't), that would give me exactly 6 more turn attempts for another DMM Persist. In exchange, everyone gets an extra 2 hit points per hit die and a +2 on their fort saves. Not too shabby, eh?

Now the whole party is immune to many forms of battlefield control (which means Batman can toss around Solid Fog and Web and the like as much as he wants to without hampering us), not to mention having a +5 on every weapon, armor, and shield. For the whole day. Every day. And I automatically maximize and empower all my Healing Domain spells, which I can cast spontaniously.

And best of all, I don't make any of the party members obsolete. I simply make them better at their job. So instead of cranky party members who are grumbling about me stealing their thunder, I've got happy party members who are buffed to the gills.

Ikkitosen
2007-07-31, 02:59 AM
And best of all, I don't make any of the party members obsolete. I simply make them better at their job. So instead of cranky party members who are grumbling about me stealing their thunder, I've got happy party members who are buffed to the gills.

i.e. you're playing a cleric well.

warmachine
2007-07-31, 05:52 AM
You must possess the normal, metamagic feat to enhance with the appropriate Divine Metamagic feat. You'll have to check the wording but I don't think metamagic rods count, as they allow you to apply metamagic to spells but don't actually grant you the feat itself.

I've already done something like this for 9th level. Devine Metacheese (http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=4968) (pun intended). Persistent Divine Power is good. I have other, more outlandish examples. This example (http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=5041), which looks like a large angel and animates the dead, is an artistic violation, let alone a game mechanic one.

Alternatively, go for Quicken Spell and DMM (Quicken). Clerics are party support and when something goes wrong, there are many people to pull out of trouble.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-31, 06:12 AM
That stinks... Archmage gets spell progression and Hierophant doesn't... but it does work

Eh, at least you still get the caster level. On the plus side, if your party goes Epic, you don't get spell slots anyway, and you can make up for it then.


Flaws are prohibited. I have to have Pelor as my diety to be RSoP to auto-empower and maxamize all my healing spells through the spontanious domain (healing) variant, so I can't get the Planning or Undeath domains. This puts a hamper on it.

That it do.


Do I have to purchase DMM for every feat I wish to apply it to? That sounds... expensive feat-wise.

DMM was errate'd shortly after release to include that limit, yes. Otherwise, not much point in getting the regular feats for a cleric.


Let's see... Human Cleric of Pelor (that fits flavor-wise). 1st level: Extra Turning and Extend Spell. 3rd: Persist. 6th: Chain Spell. 9th: DMM Persist, and 12th: DMM Chain Spell. That would at least get the basics covered.

With a Charisma of 18 to start out with, that would give me 7 turn attempts. With Extra Turning, that gives him 11 turn attempts. If I grab a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, I can use that to do the daily spells. This gives me three of them, up to level six. So, I go DMM Persist, Metamagic Rod of Chain, Divine Reach... and get no spell adjustment for three daily buffs. Now, GMW and MV don't need DMM Persist, thankfully, due to hours/level duration, I can find ways to get that bumped up to caster level 24 through items (Ioun Stone and such).
Now then, I figure the next most useful all-day buff would be either True Seeing or Freedom of Movement. Well... I can DMM Persist, Metamagic rod of Chain, Divine Reach Freedom of Movement for a cost of six turn attempts.
I thought it was Spell Level Adjustment +1 (7, in this case).

Not too shabby, I've got 5 left.
Now, True Seeing has a cost of 250 per cast, so that's rather expensive to do on a daily basis, but how about something like Bear's Endurance to give everyone a +4 to Con? Now then, I've run out of uses in my Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, so I'll have to pay for it. Fortunately, it's only a 2nd level spell normally, so +3 makes it a 5th level spell. If I can manage a Cha of 20 (and no reason why I shouldn't), that would give me exactly 6 more turn attempts for another DMM Persist. In exchange, everyone gets an extra 2 hit points per hit die and a +2 on their fort saves. Not too shabby, eh?

Now the whole party is immune to many forms of battlefield control (which means Batman can toss around Solid Fog and Web and the like as much as he wants to without hampering us), not to mention having a +5 on every weapon, armor, and shield. For the whole day. Every day. And I automatically maximize and empower all my Healing Domain spells, which I can cast spontaniously.

And best of all, I don't make any of the party members obsolete. I simply make them better at their job. So instead of cranky party members who are grumbling about me stealing their thunder, I've got happy party members who are buffed to the gills.
That is a good part of the Cleric's job, yes.