What counts as a ranged weapon?

[Squiddish]

Sneak attack requires a ranged or finesse weapon to activate. Most of the time, this is pretty straightforward-Shooting someone, sneak attack; stabbing with shortsword, sneak attack; smashing them with a warhammer, no sneak attack. However, there are a few edge cases, and most interpretations have some weird implications

Should ranged attack mean...
1. Any weapon using a ranged attack roll?
2. Any weapon hitting targets at a range?
3. Any weapon listed under ranged weapons in the PHB?

Now for the weird implications:
1. If it requires a ranged attack roll, light hammers, handaxes, javelins, tridents, and even improvised thrown weapons (from rocks to longswords) can be used to sneak attack.
2. If it's any weapon that hits targets at a range, you run into the same things as 1., but spells like magic stone also work.
3. If it's any weapon listed under ranged weapons, thrown weapons such as javelins don't count, but hitting someone with the butt of a crossbow does, as does throwing the pebbles enchanted by magic stone with a sling.

Which interpretation causes the least drastic consequences?

[TundraBuccaneer]

A throw weapon is a melee weapon you can make a ranged attack with. If sneak attack says it works with ranged weapons it does not include melee weapon you have to option of to make a ranged attack with. It's still a melee weapon.

[nweismuller]

For 3, does 'butt of a crossbow' show up on the ranged weapons list? No, there's only a listing for using a crossbow as a crossbow? Then 'the butt of a crossbow' is not a ranged weapon, it's an improvised melee weapon that happens to use a portion of a weapon that, if used differently, would be a ranged weapon, and so you don't have to let it sneak attack.

[Millstone85]

What has been said.

Though I think improvised weapons are not divided into melee and ranged. They can be used in melee or they can be thrown, but they just count as improvised weapons.
Edit: Or maybe they are just all melee. I don't know.

[Squiddish]

For 3, does 'butt of a crossbow' show up on the ranged weapons list? No, there's only a listing for using a crossbow as a crossbow? Then 'the butt of a crossbow' is not a ranged weapon, it's an improvised melee weapon that happens to use a portion of a weapon that, if used differently, would be a ranged weapon, and so you don't have to let it sneak attack.

That was maybe a bad example. What about using a sling in melee? Same part of the weapon, after all.

[Millstone85]

That was maybe a bad example. What about using a sling in melee? Same part of the weapon, after all.
If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon (see "Improvised Weapons" later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.I would say that wasn't a bad example, and this is an even better one.

[Beelzebubba]

Which interpretation causes the least drastic consequences?

If a melee weapon doesn't qualify when being held in the hand, why would it qualify if thrown, when that would make it less precise?

I'd rule that this means bows, crossbows, darts, and thrown daggers.

Those are either precise missile weapons, or finesse thrown weapons.

[Squiddish]

If a melee weapon doesn't qualify when being held in the hand, why would it qualify if thrown, when that would make it less precise?

I'd rule that this means bows, crossbows, darts, and thrown daggers.

Those are either precise missile weapons, or finesse thrown weapons.

Well, that's even stricter than any of the possible interpretations, since that would rule out blowguns and slings.

[Beelzebubba]

Well, that's even stricter than any of the possible interpretations, since that would rule out blowguns and slings.

Yeah, those make sense, now that I think about it.

But hammers? Nah.

[Tanarii]

3. Any weapon listed under ranged weapons in the PHB?This one. "The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess. Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance." - Basic Rules p45


3. If it's any weapon listed under ranged weapons, thrown weapons such as javelins don't count, but hitting someone with the butt of a crossbow does, as does throwing the pebbles enchanted by magic stone with a sling.Hitting someone with the butt of a crossbow is using it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons aren't on the table.
Throwing the pebbles thing doesn't work for the same reason (I think). I'd have to reread the spell to be sure though, since it's not PHB I'm not that familiar with it and it may contain overriding text.

[Squiddish]

This one. "The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess. Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance." - Basic Rules p45

Hitting someone with the butt of a crossbow is using it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons aren't on the table.
Throwing the pebbles thing doesn't work for the same reason (I think). I'd have to reread the spell to be sure though, since it's not PHB I'm not that familiar with it and it may contain overriding text.

It doesn't have overriding text, but the sling is a device for throwing pebbles. If you throw a nonmagical pebble normally, it's an improvised weapon; if you throw a nonmagical pebble with a sling it's ammunition.

[Tanarii]

It doesn't have overriding text, but the sling is a device for throwing pebbles. If you throw a nonmagical pebble normally, it's an improvised weapon; if you throw a nonmagical pebble with a sling it's ammunition.
If that's the case, I'm fairly sure that it wouldn't work any more than throwing a non-magical pebble then.

If you use a sling then it'll definitely work as normal.

[Millstone85]

It doesn't have overriding text, but the sling is a device for throwing pebbles.And it is not just the word pebble. Magic Stone mentions "throwing it or hurling it with a sling".

[JumboWheat01]

Since Sneak Attack requires either Finesse or a Ranged Weapon, I would say you're free to sneak attack with a thrown dagger, but not a thrown axe, since the axe only ever uses STR, but normal ranged weapons use DEX, which a thrown dagger, being a finesse weapon, can use.

Improvised weapons, as far as I know, are never Finesse and thus, can never sneak attack.

[Tanarii]

but normal ranged weapons use DEX, which a thrown dagger, being a finesse weapon, can use.I'm confused. How are these related? You seem to be conflating two concepts, which might end up in potential confusion.

The Dagger is a Melee weapon, thrown, with finesse. It can use Dex or Str either in melee or when thrown due to being a Finesse weapon with the thrown property. It qualifies for Sneak Attack, whether in melee or when thrown, because it is a finesse melee weapon.

A Ranged weapon of any kind uses Dex to attack, unless it also has the thrown property, in which case it can use Str. (e.g. Darts). They qualify for Sneak Attack because they are Ranged Weapons.

Edit: throwing doesn't allow ranged weapons to use Str. Darts have Finesse, which allows you to choose between Str and Dex when using them.

[Squiddish]

Hold on, if thrown weapons do count as ranged, you can sneak attack with them.

If they do not, as is the predominant opinion, and they aren't improvised weapons, that means they're melee weapons... which means they qualify for improved divine smite (but not normal divine smite).

Is that reasonable?

[Tanarii]

If they do not, as is the predominant opinion, and they aren't improvised weapons, that means they're melee weapons... which means they qualify for improved divine smite (but not normal divine smite).Divine smite requires a melee weapon attack, not an attack with a melee weapon.

Edit: That's my way of saying I have no clue. I've never gotten straight the SA rules for the difference between those two. :smallyuk:

[JumboWheat01]

Edit: throwing doesn't allow ranged weapons to use Str. Darts have Finesse, which allows you to choose between Str and Dex when using them.



Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll taht you would use for a melee attack with the same weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.

So yeah, throwing weapons do use Strength, unless they have finesse.

Also of note, there is this tweet for the original subject of this thread.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/733458905062203394?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[JNAProductions]

RAW on this might be a little shaky. How it's played at a table, though, is probably much clearer.

Can you sneak attack with it in melee? Then you can sneak attack with it at range, if it's a thrown weapon.

[Squiddish]

Divine smite requires a melee weapon attack, not an attack with a melee weapon.

Edit: That's my way of saying I have no clue. I've never gotten straight the SA rules for the difference between those two. :smallyuk:

The weirdest thing isn't that they're different, it's that Divine Smite and Improved Divine Smite have different requirements. Divine smite requires a melee weapon attack, while improved divine smite requires an attack with a melee weapon.

The difference is pretty simple, a thrown javelin is an attack with a melee weapon, but a ranged weapon attack.
The only functional differences between ranged and melee weapons are that none of the conventional ranged weapons can be used in melee and that melee weapons default to strength, while ranged default to dexterity.
The only functional difference between ranged and melee attacks (weapon or spell) is that ranged attacks have disadvantage in close quarters.

[Armored Walrus]

The only functional difference between ranged and melee attacks (weapon or spell) is that ranged attacks have disadvantage in close quarters.

And ranged attacks have disadvantage to hit someone who is prone, whereas melee attacks from within 5 feet against a prone target are made with advantage and autocrit.

[Tanarii]

So yeah, throwing weapons do use Strength, unless they have finesse.Read what you quoted more carefully. Throwing allows melee weapons to make a ranged attack using whatever ability they normally use. So Str for most of them. But it doesn't do anything for a ranged weapon. Edit: except let it be used as a thrown weapon, obviously. As opposed to a weapon with the ammunition property.

Otoh finesse just lets you use Str or Dex regardless of the kind of attack.

Really this matters for darts. Except it doesn't because they also have finesse.

[RickAllison]

And ranged attacks have disadvantage to hit someone who is prone, whereas melee attacks from within 5 feet against a prone target are made with advantage and autocrit.

You are sort of right, but from very wrong logic. Well, not the autocrit. That is paralysis. Totally different. Prone gives advantage for attacks from within 5' and disadvantage for attacks beyond that. Ranged attacks from more than 5' have disadvantage, but so does a melee weapon using reach from 10'. Meanwhile, a ranged attack at 5' generally has both advantage from being within 5' while prone and disadvantage because it is a ranged attack within 5', so they would cancel. But if you have Crossbow Expert (which eliminates the melee disadvantage), you can jump over that person the fighter knocked prone and shoot them in the face with advantage.