has anyone ever tried monk/swordsage [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

jdizzlean

2017-04-17, 07:16 PM

Kaje

2017-04-17, 08:26 PM

Monk ac bonus and ss ac bonus don't stack.

Rerednaw

2017-04-17, 08:38 PM

To OP:

What is the goal/focus of the build? If it is passive AC, then there are other options, some of which may work better depending on your campaign constraints.
If you just want monk attack progression...then you are more likely from a CharOp standpoint going straight SSage, picking up a monk's belt and a splashing few feats...or any other combo that offers monk attacks on top of their base class features.

Is this a low-level campaign? Because eventually SSage gets evasion too...plus a ton of things a monk can only dream of. Swift teleport? Free concealment? (okay Moon Disciple can get this too) at-will refreshable (with Adaptive Style feat) abilities? SSage will hit harder, more often, and have a bigger toolbox. Oh and have higher defenses, with the exception of 1 save, though there's a way around that too. Plus a monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike and now you have monk unarmed of 9th level.

Cheers!

Esprit15

2017-04-17, 09:08 PM

Two levels of monk mixes very nicely with swordsage. If you intend to grapple, you get it for free (and if nothing else it makes escaping grapples easier), second level brings in combat reflexes (always good) or deflect arrows (useless/great depending on the game) and evasion quite early. You only lose one initiator level since half of your non-SS levels count toward initiator progression.

For fluff, you get unarmed strike for free, and can then progress through swordsage as the badass unarmed fighter, but actually be helpful.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-17, 09:27 PM

there is another small option in monk/swordsage dips.

If you want to fight in light armor and only unarmed strike progress that is.

(regular) Swordsage 2 to get WIS to AC while wearing light armor. You loose the unarmed strike progress, but if you intend to go PRC asap, that could be compensated (monk's belt). You lose some of your monk features (light armor), but since most PRC don't progress them (e.g. flurry) it doesn't matter that much (only real loss is movementspeed bonus). But you gain WIS to AC while wearing light armor.

It's not OP, just an option. But a good one if you want to wear (maybe one specific) armor.

rrwoods

2017-04-17, 09:53 PM

Monk ac bonus and ss ac bonus don't stack.
I never understood this line of thinking. The rule is that bonuses from the same source don't stack. Class features from different classes are pretty clearly different sources to me.

torrasque666

2017-04-17, 09:59 PM

I never understood this line of thinking. The rule is that bonuses from the same source don't stack. Class features from different classes are pretty clearly different sources to me.

Swordsage doesn't have the "or unarmored" qualifier attached to it.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

while Monk requires unarmored.

AC Bonus (Ex): A monk is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Emphasis mine.

So simply put, you can never achieve both requirements. Though oddly, monk doesn't necessarily preclude using a shield unlike swordsage.

Sagetim

2017-04-17, 10:06 PM

i've pretty much always ignored ToB, but in another thread, everyone was all about it being so OP...

in looking at the swordsage, it seems like an easy force multiplier if you take even just a 1 level dip into monk. Go go gadget +++ Wis to everything, sometimes more then once. Just think, a monk/ss with a monks belt and that's enough to make my mind explode and I don't even know monk that well...

thoughts?

I like making characters for fun, this might be something neat to do some research on

Better saves, much worse BAB, the monk Wisdom to AC bonus doesn't stack with the sword sage wisdom bonus to AC. I've built an unarmed sword sage by taking improved unarmed strike and punching things. Thankfully, the GM let me start with a monk's belt (which was outside the gold limit of our starting level), but since it basically just meant that I had 1d6 base unarmed damage and +1 AC when Not wearing armor...and I wear armor on that character, it wasn't really that big a difference, it just meant that I could punch things without being godawful at it.

On the subject of not being godawful at punching, the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class is like a monk/sword sage prestige class, except that you don't need any monk levels to take it. So you can get yourself some unarmed punching capability from that, take superior unarmed strike and have yourself a merry time punching things with Mountain Hammer and laughing and laughing and winning fight clubs while looking like you're just punching things particularly hard.

And since it's an initiator prestige class, it gets full progression on your initiator level. Further, you can grab Shadow Hand stuff from it, and that's some of the best stuff for straight up murdering people and being an assassin. Like, seriously...you're a better assassin with a few levels of sword sage and some shadow hand moves than someone at higher level and levels of the actual assassin prestige class.

Anyway, that's sidetracking. My main point is that monk and sword sage have quite a bit of overlap. You can certainly get some handy things, like evasion. But you would already get that if you're going straight sword sage eventually. And if you want bonus feats that monks normally get, you're probably better off taking a few Fighter levels and getting weapon focus and specialization with fists and whatever other feat you're aiming for as the Fighter 2 ability. That will also help your base attack bonus to not be terrible, and if it's just 4 fighter levels you're not taking Too horrible a hit to your initiator level.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-17, 10:11 PM

I never understood this line of thinking. The rule is that bonuses from the same source don't stack. Class features from different classes are pretty clearly different sources to me.

The restriction is not only that effects from the same source doesn't stack (unless noted otherwise).
The other restriction is that the bonus has to be either untyped (just the word "bonus") or have different bonus types to be able to stack.

Now lets get back to our Wis to AC bonus.

- The bonus is declared named as "AC bonus" (has the "AC" type).
- The effect is Wis-to-AC

Swordsage & Monk's abilities have the same bonus typename & effect and thus can not stack.

But if said Swordsage/Monk has taken Kung-Fu Genius (feat) at (or before) his 1st monk lvl, things change:

- Kung-Fu Genius has the effect into Int-to-AC
- the bonus name is still "AC bonus"

While they share the bonus type name, they are different effects in the first place. And the "Stacking Rules" deal with "stacking the same effect" and thus (the restricting rule) doesn't apply here anymore.

edit to prevent misreading/clarify: Wis-to-AC and Int-to-AC work together well.
They are on 2 different effect stacks and thus both add to your total AC.

edit2: changed the wrong part to prevent misleading: it was the same "name" of the effect and not the bonus type.

Deophaun

2017-04-17, 10:40 PM

- The bonus is declared as "AC bonus" (has the "AC" type).
No. You have your reasoning flipped around.

AC Bonus is the name of the class feature: that's the effect. The class feature only says "bonus to AC." The type is ability (Wis), which Kung-Fu Genius would change to Int, allowing them to stack...

...if the effect wasn't the "AC Bonus" class feature for both.

So, right conclusion, wrong method.

Edit: Wait... what?

While they share the bonus type, they are different effects in the first place. And the "Stacking Rules" deal with "stacking the same effect" and thus (the restricting rule) doesn't apply here anymore.

No. That's not how it works. Unless you're talking about dodge or circumstance bonuses, bonuses of the same type don't stack, even if they come from different sources.

Dagroth

2017-04-17, 10:50 PM

No. You have your reasoning flipped around.

AC Bonus is the name of the class feature: that's the effect. The class feature only says "bonus to AC." The type is ability (Wis), which Kung-Fu Genius would change to Int, allowing them to stack...

...if the effect wasn't the "AC Bonus" class feature for both.

So, right conclusion, wrong method.

Edit: Wait... what?

No. That's not how it works. Unless you're talking about dodge or circumstance bonuses, bonuses of the same type don't stack, even if they come from different sources.

Then you're saying that the Con-to-AC bonus of Fist of the Forest does not stack with the Wis-to-AC bonus of Monk... Which is clearly not RAI.

If you want to say Swordsage Wis-to-AC doesn't stack with Monk Wis-to-AC, I would agree... since the source for both is (get this...) the Character's Wisdom!

On the other hand, Kung Fu Genius changes one of those to Int-to-AC... and now they stack (for the same reason Fist of the Forest's Con-to-AC stacks), because they have different sources.

Deophaun

2017-04-17, 11:39 PM

Then you're saying that the Con-to-AC bonus of Fist of the Forest does not stack with the Wis-to-AC bonus of Monk... Which is clearly not RAI.

If you want to say Swordsage Wis-to-AC doesn't stack with Monk Wis-to-AC, I would agree... since the source for both is (get this...) the Character's Wisdom!
But then I'll turn that right around on you and say "Then you're saying that the Marshall's Cha-to-Cha skills bonus of Motivate Charisma does not stack with the Cha-to-Cha skills of... well... Cha skills... Which is clearly not RAI."

Funny thing: dysfunctions crop up in the rules all the time. We have long threads about them here.

And Kung Fu Genius doesn't change the source of both from being AC Bonus. The type is an ability modifier, which you can find in the glossary of the PHB.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-17, 11:45 PM

since I have atm. the 3.5 main FAQ at hand (due to other thread), here is the official answer:

Q: Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?

A: No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once

edit:
@Deophaun
ty for pointing it out. you are right and I tried to correct the post to prevent misinformation.

but.. edit2:^^

No. That's not how it works. Unless you're talking about dodge or circumstance bonuses, bonuses of the same type don't stack, even if they come from different sources.

Kung-Fu Genius doesn't change the name of the ability that gives you the bonus to your AC. It changes just it's effect. So, the name "AC Bonus" still remains. But the effect did chance. It provides a different bonus.
The rule is that the same effect/bonus of different sources with the same name may not stack (see FAQ). Not that different effects of different sources with the same name, these may stack (e.g. Kung-Fu Genius Monk + Swordsage).

Sagetim

2017-04-18, 01:21 AM

since I have atm. the 3.5 main FAQ at hand (due to other thread), here is the official answer:

edit:
@Deophaun
ty for pointing it out. you are right and I tried to correct the post to prevent misinformation.

but.. edit2:^^

Kung-Fu Genius doesn't change the name of the ability that gives you the bonus to your AC. It changes just it's effect. So, the name "AC Bonus" still remains. But the effect did chance. It provides a different bonus.
The rule is that the same effect/bonus of different sources with the same name may not stack (see FAQ). Not that different effects of different sources with the same name, these may stack (e.g. Kung-Fu Genius Monk + Swordsage).

This is also assuming you found some way to magically suspend your character into a state of quantum superposition where you are both wearing armor to gain the sword sage ac bonus, and not wearing armor to gain the monk ac bonus at the same time.

I mean, someone did quote the Sword Sage earlier, and I just double checked it, and the errata doesn't actually exist because instead of Tome of Battle errata someone just copy pasted the complete arcane errata over the contents of the document. Perhaps it's contents were too powerful for this world, but whatever the case we don't get an errata that might have clarified that sword sages can have their ac bonus while Not wearing armor as well.

Deophaun

2017-04-18, 01:44 AM

Kung-Fu Genius doesn't change the name of the ability that gives you the bonus to your AC. It changes just it's effect.
The ability is the effect; there's no difference between the two. What are you think is the difference between ability and effect is actually the difference between effect and result:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
The effect is AC Bonus. The result is Wis to AC. Kung Fu Genius changes the result to Int to AC. The effect remains AC Bonus.

Now, the reason this is all so confusing is that the rules are inconsistent in their language even in this very spot. So, the title is "same effect with differing results," yet it talks about spells producing varying "effects," not "results." Yet, you still only get one.

Is a spell an effect? Let's go back:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. For example, two bless spells don’t give twice the benefit of one bless. Both bless spells, however, continue to act simultaneously, and if one ends first, the other one continues to operate for the remainder of its duration. Likewise, two haste spells do not make the creature doubly fast.
So here, yup. A spell is an effect. Consistent much, game?

Anyway, the thrust is actually consistent if you peel away the bad language: an ability can only do one thing at a time, no matter how many instances of that ability are in play. It doesn't matter how many castings of heroics you have on you, you're only going to get a single bonus fighter feat. It doesn't matter how many resist energies you have on you. You're only getting resistance applied to a single energy type. Broadening our view from spells, it doesn't matter how many AC Bonuses you have: you're only getting a single additional ability score applied.

That's what the FAQ is referencing.

Dagroth

2017-04-18, 03:16 AM

So, again, you're saying that the Con-to-AC bonus that Fist of the Forest gives does not stack with a Monk's Wis-to-AC bonus?

I would say "despite the sample character showing that it does stack", but then people will just point out the errors in other sample characters as if that is somehow indicative of all sample characters having egregious errors.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-18, 03:54 AM

I don't get what you read out of my posts..^^

___

Stacking Rules deal with stacking the same effect. WIS-to-AC, CON-to-AC & INT-to-AC are all different effects. They all have their own effect stack (category) that adds to your AC. That's why they work together.

Regular Monk + Unarmed Swordsage both give the same bonus (name) & effect (with different requirements to be active): "WIS-to-AC". As the FAQ points out, that is not stackable (same bonus name + same effect but different sources = may not stack).

Kung-Fu Genius says:

You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom modifier for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.

The ability Kung-Fu Genius changes the "effect" of all special monk abilities to be affected by INT rather than WIS. The abilities all still have the same name. Just the effects changed to INT-mods.

edit: scratch that edited red sentence. I was in a hurry and twisted it in my mind ..^^

Esprit15

2017-04-18, 04:15 AM

Aotrs Commander

2017-04-18, 04:29 AM

I still don't see how it is relevant, given that the bonuses apply at different times. Unless of course you're houseruling things to make sense, at which point it becomes DM discretion if Kung-Fu Genius makes SS and Monk AC bonuses stack.

Maybe they're talking about the unarmed swordsag varient (though at that point, monk is a but superflous).

My #experience with monk/sword sage is that only that in my 1st-Epic party, the party's Monk went to Swordsage at 16th. ToB is very good for dipping, especially late on, since you can pick any maneuvres you qualify for based on initiator level, and thus you can usually start with a reasonable number of 3rdish level manuevers; and the second level, when you can meet more of the "must known x school maneuvers" you are pretty much gold for whatever you like for your IL.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-18, 05:10 AM

Maybe they're talking about the unarmed swordsag varient (though at that point, monk is a but superflous).

My #experience with monk/sword sage is that only that in my 1st-Epic party, the party's Monk went to Swordsage at 16th. ToB is very good for dipping, especially late on, since you can pick any maneuvres you qualify for based on initiator level, and thus you can usually start with a reasonable number of 3rdish level manuevers; and the second level, when you can meet more of the "must known x school maneuvers" you are pretty much gold for whatever you like for your IL.

I thought that the discussion is entirely about the unarmed swordsage variant. The title suggested monk/swordsage after all.
sure they overlap each other a bit, but you would still get the monk bonus feats and evasion earlier (better if you intend to get out of your base classes and if you keep em low in the entire build in favor for other PRC).

And your right, if you can, delay initiator dips as much as you can to get better starting maneuvers.

Deophaun

2017-04-18, 07:43 AM

I don't get what you read out of my posts..^^

___

Stacking Rules deal with stacking the same effect. WIS-to-AC, CON-to-AC & INT-to-AC are all different effects.
No.

AC Bonus, AC Bonus, and AC Bonus are all the same effect.

Wis to AC, Con to AC, and Int to AC are all different results.

They don't work together.

As the FAQ points out, that is not stackable (same bonus name + same effect but different sources = may not stack).
Read the FAQ again. There are two different things that make it not work: The first is same bonus, the second is same source.

A: No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.
The name of both sources is AC Bonus. You cannot benefit from multiple sources with the name "AC Bonus" more than once.

So, again, you're saying that the Con-to-AC bonus that Fist of the Forest gives does not stack with a Monk's Wis-to-AC bonus?
You keep repeating that as if it's an argument.

I would say "despite the sample character showing that it does stack", but then people will just point out the errors in other sample characters as if that is somehow indicative of all sample characters having egregious errors.
It is indicative of sample characters not being evidence of anything if we know sample characters can be wrong, yes.

Necroticplague

2017-04-18, 08:07 AM

Deophaun's right. In order for something to stack, it has to both be of a different type, and have a different source (or be untyped).

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
The source of all of these is "AC bonus". Therefore, they don't stack. It's just like if you cast Giant Size to turn yourself Huge, then if you cast it again to turn yourself Gargantuan. Both of these are untyped bonuses to STR (of +16, and +24, respectively), but they have the same source (Giant Size), and the fact they're two different applications of the same ability doesn't matter. You simply get whatever bonus is bigger. So if you had Fist of the Forest, Monk, and Battle Dancer (also has AC bonus), you'd simply get the largest of CON, WIS, or CHA to AC.

jdizzlean

2017-04-18, 08:16 AM

so would the SS wis to ac, not stack w/ the monks wis to ac if the source is a monk's belt? You just wouldn't be able to stack it 3x, but rather 2?

and to further stir the pot:

at the end of the ss description in the book, it has Adaption: blah blah blah, to create a monklike character with a tremendous arraay of fantastic moves and strikes, give the ss the monks unarmed strike progression and remove light armor proficiency.

Naturally, if you remove the proficiency, wouldn't that change the text earlier that is quoted as requiring light armor be worn in order for the WIS to AC to apply to both? and of course we're back to the beginning full circle.

and of course on the topic of same things don't stack. The monk's Wis to AC is an EX ability, which makes it a different source entirely from the class ability of the SS's wis to ac, so with a monk's belt thrown in, you would stack wis 3x and add extra +monk ac bonus on top correct?

jdizzlean

2017-04-18, 10:10 AM

edits for fun and joyful discussion

Grod_The_Giant

2017-04-18, 10:23 AM

Monk is a passable dip for most melee classes-- it's a quick way to pick up a bunch of bonus feats, Flurry isn't a terrible thing to have on your sheet for when you need it, there are some nice low-level ACFs like Invisible Fist, etc. Similarly, Swordsage is also a good dip-- it gets you a lot of maneuvers and Weapon Focus, and the way IL works you can jump straight to higher level ones if you take the dip later in your build. Swordsage is especially tempting on a light combatant like the Monk, because you can grab a Shadow Hand stance to qualify you for the Shadow Blade feat to get Dex-to-damage.

so would the SS wis to ac, not stack w/ the monks wis to ac if the source is a monk's belt? You just wouldn't be able to stack it 3x, but rather 2?

The class features don't stack because the default Swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor, while the Monk's only works when unarmored. Beyond that... well, clearly there's some debate; ask your DM. On the whole, I'd allow it; 2*Wis to AC is no worse than Light Armor + Wis to AC
The Monk's Belt absolutely and explicitly will not stack with Monk levels-- instead, you're treated as a Monk 5 levels higher while wearing it. It only gives you the Monk's AC bonus if you're not already a Monk. So it would presumably give them Monk's bonus to the Swordsage, circling back around to the first point; it certainly won't give it to a character with Monk levels.

and to further stir the pot:

at the end of the ss description in the book, it has Adaption: blah blah blah, to create a monklike character with a tremendous arraay of fantastic moves and strikes, give the ss the monks unarmed strike progression and remove light armor proficiency.

Naturally, if you remove the proficiency, wouldn't that change the text earlier that is quoted as requiring light armor be worn in order for the WIS to AC to apply to both? and of course we're back to the beginning full circle.
It's a poorly defined adaptation, so some interpretation will always be required. I'm pretty sure most sane DMs would allow the Swordsage's AC bonus to work in no armor either way, but especially in the unarmored version of the class. And again, we're back to "RAW debated, ask your DM."

and of course on the topic of same things don't stack. The monk's Wis to AC is an EX ability, which makes it a different source entirely from the class ability of the SS's wis to ac, so with a monk's belt thrown in, you would stack wis 3x and add extra +monk ac bonus on top correct?
Incorrect; as I mentioned above, a Monk's belt explicitly works differently for Monks.

Gruftzwerg

2017-04-18, 11:08 AM

No.

AC Bonus, AC Bonus, and AC Bonus are all the same effect.

Wis to AC, Con to AC, and Int to AC are all different results.

They don't work together.

Read the FAQ again. There are two different things that make it not work: The first is same bonus, the second is same source.

The name of both sources is AC Bonus. You cannot benefit from multiple sources with the name "AC Bonus" more than once.

You keep repeating that as if it's an argument.

It is indicative of sample characters not being evidence of anything if we know sample characters can be wrong, yes.

"AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus..."

The bold part before the ":" is always the "name" of the ability. This should be obvious.

The bonus type is Wisdom (Ability) Bonus/Modifier (see BASICS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)modifier types).

The effect is that you may add your "wisdom bonus" to your AC.

Monk & Unarmed Swordsage both give you the same ability (name), same modifier & same effect.

Wis-to-AC & Int-to-AC may have the same ability name. But together with Con-to-AC they all have different ability modifiers (different bonus types: Wis-bonus, Con-bonus & Int-bonus) and effects. That's the reasoning/ruling why they may stack.

You could argue that all ability modifiers are just a single type, but than the text would have been: "wisdom ability bonus" making "ability" the type. But that ain't the case and therefor you can assume that we have separate ability bonus types (Str, Dex, Con, ..).

Dagroth

2017-04-18, 11:30 AM

But then I'll turn that right around on you and say "Then you're saying that the Marshall's Cha-to-Cha skills bonus of Motivate Charisma does not stack with the Cha-to-Cha skills of... well... Cha skills... Which is clearly not RAI."

Actually, that would be a case of "specific trumps general", given the class feature description for the Marshall's Auras specifically define what they do.

jdizzlean

2017-04-18, 11:53 AM

SirNibbles

2017-04-18, 12:07 PM

Monk ac bonus and ss ac bonus don't stack.

They do if you take levels of Paladin and then take 2 levels of Argent Fist (Faiths of Eberron, page 70).

So simply put, you can never achieve both requirements. Though oddly, monk doesn't necessarily preclude using a shield unlike swordsage.

It does. Read further in the quote you posted.

"She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load."

Emphasis mine.

The Viscount

2017-04-18, 06:11 PM

so if you were going to start off w/ monk, and then dip SS, and then progress into something else...

how far would you take monk, as once you split off, you can never come back
how far would you take SS before it becomes irrelevant
and then what would you bounce to to finish?

I admire your dedication to keeping your original intent alive among the madness.

1. Personally I would stop after 2 levels of monk, 2 feats from one of the various fighting style lists and evasion (or spell reflection or invisible fist). After that, I'm not really sure what you want from monk that swordsage can't help you with. If you want to keep up unarmed strike, unarmed swordsage does that, or you could use monk's belt and superior unarmed strike to help you out.
2. Swordsage easily stays relevant all the way because of maneuvers. Personally I'm not much for the 9th level ones, but the 8th level maneuvers are quite good.
3. PrCing out of Swordsage is difficult because the most attractive thing to keep up (maneuvers/stances) is not easily found in much, the only real useful options are in ToB. For a swordsage, Eternal Blade gives you the tasty access to Iron Heart and Devoted spirit but has the irritating requirements of BA +10 and Elf. Bloodclaw Master can be fun if your DM agrees that TWFing with Unarmed strikes is legal, but that's a messy issue that's never been resolved, so you can't reallyprove it's kosher. Shadow Sun Ninja as mentioned is easy to enter as swordsage but restricts you to only 2 of the weaker schools. Master of Nine has some prerequisites that mean you need to plan out how to enter far in advance, but a swordsage can enter, and learning from any school is very good.

jdizzlean

2017-04-18, 06:28 PM

thanks for the advice, i have to really read into what SS is and does, i've only just skimmed it so far.

base races suck, i like flavor. In our game we can build w/ a +1 LA as a freebie, so for now i've chosen poison dusk lizardfolk for the base race. as a lvl 1 monk, this is what i have sans equipment/gold

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1182095

Grod_The_Giant

2017-04-19, 07:30 AM

You should start as a Swordsage. Gets you more skill points and you can nab Shadow Blade with your first level feat.

The Viscount

2017-04-20, 12:06 PM

Sweet Last Dragon reference. I agree starting with swordsage, and I would suggest taking discipline focus tiger claw to make easier use of those claws.

jdizzlean

2017-04-23, 10:33 AM

of course i forgot to bring my thumb drive o' books today.

so i don't have the ToB to review, but this is the lvl 1 rework of SS, instead of Monk.

I don't know what the Disc Focus grants, and I haven't picked a stance/feat. I Imagine lvl's 2 and 3 will be the Monk dip, and then back into full SS?

most of this is off the SS handbook found here on the playground.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1182095

I could add light armor for a slight ac boost to begin w/, but it'll get thrown away at 2nd lvl, so meh.

The Viscount

2017-04-23, 12:56 PM

That level breakdown seems sensible. Have you decided if you're keeping evasion or trading it for ACFs? Have you chosen which bonus feats you want from monk? Discipline focus has benefits at several levels, but the first level bonus is Weapon Focus with all the associated weapons. I suggested Tiger Claw because among the list is both claw and unarmed strike, but if something else takes your fancy it's not a big deal.

For stance and feat one option to consider is either one of the Shadow Hand stances (both are good) and Shadow Blade as a feat. While in a shadow hand stance it gives Dex to damage with shadow hand weapons, one of which is unarmed strikes. Important to note is that it adds to damage, it doesn't replace strength, making it useful for a character with investment in both scores.