Swashbuckler + Elusive Target

[artimus261]

So I'm making a swashbuckler with a huge focus on using a single rapier, already picked up einhander and all that. Gotta ask about this other Tactical Feat outta Complete Warrior. One of it's things lets you ignore the bonus damage an enemy would gain from using power attack if he's your dodge target. Another let's you, when flanked, send the first attack from your dodge target against you into the enemy he's flanking you with.

NOW

The swashbuckler herself gets her own version of dodge that she can even select a separate target for from the dodge feat. I am wondering if there were any specific rulings on whether or not BOTH an enemy she's selected with the dodge feat AND another she's selected with her class granted dodge bonus would apply to these abilities. If so it would be pretty darn amazing.

[Dagroth]

Since Elusive Target specifies "Dodge Feat", it RAW doesn't work with "Dodge Class Feature".

Permissive DMs would allow it under the "melee can have nice things too" axiom.

[artimus261]

Oh you're totally right... didn't read that word right after the one i cared about xD damnit, im still gonna make a case for it! thank ya <3

[artimus261]

One other question about the swashbuckler here, might as well right?

So the Swashbuckler adds Int to melee damage, great

The Warblade from tome of battle ALSO adds Int to melee damage as an insight bonus against flat-footed or flanked enemies. So would that mean a level 3 swash and level 7 warblade would end up adding twice his int against a flat-footed or flanked enemy to his damage???

[DEMON]

One other question about the swashbuckler here, might as well right?

So the Swashbuckler adds Int to melee damage, great

The Warblade from tome of battle ALSO adds Int to melee damage as an insight bonus against flat-footed or flanked enemies. So would that mean a level 3 swash and level 7 warblade would end up adding twice his int against a flat-footed or flanked enemy to his damage???

Yes. While insight bonuses on the same thing do not stack, Insightful Strike isn't actually an insight bonus, but rather unnamed bonus. As such it should stack with the insight bonus from Battle Cunning.

[daremetoidareyo]

Midnight dodge might work.

[WhamBamSam]

Midnight dodge might work.I'm rather fond of doubling up on Dodge and Midnight Dodge to get two dodge targets on Elusive Target builds, especially as there's other Incarnum stuff that fits nicely with the whole schtick.

[artimus261]

hmmm, would be interesting trying to stack together a warblade, swashbuckler, and some essentia feats. I mean just picking up mightnight dodge and bonus essentia would be pretty great, the cap for the investment going up on it's own and I could end up having the dodge feat for +1, midnight dodge for +2 and dodge bonus(swash) for a +2 if i went 10 swash and 10 warblade i'd end up with a pretty decent set of abilities, my Int would rly help out skill wise and damage wise, and even though the dodge bonuses I'd get would just about even out to a full swashbuckler's dodge bonus plus the dodge feat the whole difference would be that i could split it up among three targets if i wished, +1 on you, +2 on you and +2 on you, or +3, +2, or +4, +1. would rly give him some awesome flexibility and could still get that +5 if i just put it all on one... very excited about this honestly :D thanks for getting me to look that up!

[artimus261]

and rly if I can find one more feat I like in magic incarnum that grants a point of essentia before i pick up bonus essentia i'd end up with 4, and the cap would still rise to 4 eventually... guh... so then it be +7, but divided up among a +1, +2 and +4... geez...

Oh... I'd need to take the shape soulmeld feat... hmmm... and even then i'd only end up with 3 essentia... okay... still, maybe one MORE feat and my +7 dodge dream will be a reality

[Dagroth]

If you dip Swordsage (I recommend 2 levels if you've got even a half-way decent Wis bonus) you can get a Desert Wind Stance and grab Desert Wind Dodge... which would make 3 different "Dodge" feats. :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

and rly if I can find one more feat I like in magic incarnum that grants a point of essentia before i pick up bonus essentia i'd end up with 4, and the cap would still rise to 4 eventually... guh... so then it be +7, but divided up among a +1, +2 and +4... geez...

Oh... I'd need to take the shape soulmeld feat... hmmm... and even then i'd only end up with 3 essentia... okay... still, maybe one MORE feat and my +7 dodge dream will be a reality

Dipping into Incarnum Blade 1 gives you shape blademeld, which counts as a soulmeld for the purposes of Bonus Essentia. Entry requirements are basically "Yep!" so long as you've got BAB +5.

If you've got any kind of Precision damage, then I'd probably go with Indigo Strike. Otherwise, maybe take Healing Soul or Soulsight.

[DEMON]

If you dip Swordsage (I recommend 2 levels if you've got even a half-way decent Wis bonus) you can get a Desert Wind Stance and grab Desert Wind Dodge... which would make 3 different "Dodge" feats. :smallbiggrin:

And then you'll be missing only the best one :smalltongue: (and not compatible with Elusive Target).

[artimus261]

yeah desert wind doesn't have a target sadly, in the end I'm probably going to go 10 swash, 9 warblade, and maybe 1 incarnate. the jump from warblade 9 to 10 isn't altogether significant and with that one level i could at least get rid of my need for shape soulmeld, though i would be losing 1 bab but i figure for a +2 Fort/Will, qualifying for a better version of a feat(getting 2 essentia instead of 1 from bonus essentia) and ridding me of the need of another it's not so bad

i mean heck as a human with 1 flaw(we're using flaws and traits for the campaign and I am definitely getting Frail for a -1 HP/HD for a free feat at 1st) I'd be able to get Dodge, Midnight Dodge, and Deadly Defense all out of the way. Not to mention Swashbuckler gets Weapon Finesse out of the way and suddenly I'm well on my way for my dodgey rapier build character. by 3rd level I could knock out the 1 level of incarnate to pick up bonus essentia, getting me my 4 early on, by 6th i can already get elusive target and by that point I can put up to 2 essentia into midnight, already getting me a +1 dodge from swash, +1 from dodge, and +2 from midnight

Plus warblade will give me some nice manuevers and stances to throw on, not to mention uncanny dodge and improved which will just make this work even better, people would end up doing better against him lining up single file than surrounding him xP

And DEMON is there another dodge feat that would work towards elusive im not thinking of? halp, make this the best dodge build ever!

[WhamBamSam]

If you dip Swordsage (I recommend 2 levels if you've got even a half-way decent Wis bonus) you can get a Desert Wind Stance and grab Desert Wind Dodge... which would make 3 different "Dodge" feats. :smallbiggrin:As others have noted, Desert Wind Dodge and Expiditous Dodge don't designate dodge targets, so they don't work with Elusive Target.


yeah desert wind doesn't have a target sadly, in the end I'm probably going to go 10 swash, 9 warblade, and maybe 1 incarnate. the jump from warblade 9 to 10 isn't altogether significant and with that one level i could at least get rid of my need for shape soulmeld, though i would be losing 1 bab but i figure for a +2 Fort/Will, qualifying for a better version of a feat(getting 2 essentia instead of 1 from bonus essentia) and ridding me of the need of another it's not so bad

i mean heck as a human with 1 flaw(we're using flaws and traits for the campaign and I am definitely getting Frail for a -1 HP/HD for a free feat at 1st) I'd be able to get Dodge, Midnight Dodge, and Deadly Defense all out of the way. Not to mention Swashbuckler gets Weapon Finesse out of the way and suddenly I'm well on my way for my dodgey rapier build character. by 3rd level I could knock out the 1 level of incarnate to pick up bonus essentia, getting me my 4 early on, by 6th i can already get elusive target and by that point I can put up to 2 essentia into midnight, already getting me a +1 dodge from swash, +1 from dodge, and +2 from midnight

Plus warblade will give me some nice manuevers and stances to throw on, not to mention uncanny dodge and improved which will just make this work even better, people would end up doing better against him lining up single file than surrounding him xP

And DEMON is there another dodge feat that would work towards elusive im not thinking of? halp, make this the best dodge build ever!The 10th level of Warblade means reaching 8th level maneuvers, which is, I would argue, consequential.

As you won't incur multiclass penalties with that stub, you should consider using Azurin or Strongheart Halfling over a standard Human.

Deadly Defense isn't very good, especially on a build that's already going to be very feat tight. Deceptive Dodge might be of interest though.

As an alternate option, here's a build stub I threw together a while back. The OP of the thread in question also wanted the build to be a poisoner, but the Hidden Talent shenanigans can be scrapped if that's not your thing. The important trick here is using Psycarnum Infusion+Psycrystal Affinity to keep one of your Incarnum feats (either Midnight Dodge or Cobalt Expertise) maximally invested through two rounds of combat (sink all essentia into the other one).

Azurin Poison Use Feat Rogue 2/PsyWar 2/Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Shadow Sun Ninja 10
1. Poison Use Feat Rogue 1 - Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation), Midnight Dodge, Combat Expertise
2. Feat Rogue 2 - Improved Trip
3. PsyWar 1 - Psycarnum Infusion, Psicrystal Affinity
4. PsyWar 2 - Psycrystal Containment
5. Hit-and-Run Fighter 1 - Mobility
6. Fighter 2 - Dodge, Cobalt Expertise
7. Unarmed Swordsage 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
8. Swordsage 2
9. Swordsage 3 - Elusive Target
10. SSN 1
11. SSN 2
12. SSN 3 - Darkstalker
13. SSN 4
14. SSN 5
15. SSN 6 - Knock-Down
16. SSN 7
17. SSN 8
18. SSN 9 - Shadow Blade
19. SSN 10
20. Swordsage 4

Incurs multiclass penalties at 20th level if you use that rule.

While I'm at it, here's an Elusive Target-based build that I've been meaning to throw together for a while.

Dragonborn Dwarf Cobra Strike Monk 2/Fighter 2/Totemist 13/Deepwarden 2/Fist of the Forest 1
1. Monk 1 - IUS, Dodge, Midnight Dodge
2. Monk 2 - Mobility
3. Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise, Endurance
4. Fighter 2 - Improved Trip
5. Totemist 1
6. Totemist 2 - Cobalt Expertise
7. Totemist 3
8. Deepwarden 1
9. Deepwarden 2 - Elusive Target
10. Totemist 4
11. Totemist 5
12. Totemist 6 - Tail Sweep Knockdown
13. Totemist 7
14. Totemist 8
15. Totemist 9 - Power Attack
16. Totemist 10
17. Totemist 11
18. Totemist 12 - Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment: Dwarf Domain), Great Fortitude
19. Fist of the Forest 1
20. Totemist 13

Basically just walk around making enemies miss (in addition to the usual suite of Elusive Target tricks, you've got Con x2 to AC while unarmored). Take full penalties to attack rolls from Combat Expertise and later Power Attack, because you yourself will be attacking with the Tail Sweep from the Dragon Tail totem bind which just deals damage with a Con-based Ref save for half. With Tail Sweep Knockdown, creatures that fail their saves also find themselves prone.

A flaw would allow you to fit in Knockdown as well, which works with the tail sweep, as you do deal the damage 'in melee'. If your table uses multiclass penalties, then you can replace the last 10 levels of Totemist with Ironsoul Forgemaster, in which case you should probably drop Fist of the Forest, dump Wis, walk around in heavy armor and just take Knockdown instead of messing around with the other FotF prereqs. You might even want to drop Monk for Feat Rogue or something in that case, as you don't really need IUS. That might actually be a better way to go anyway, though it'll be hard for armor to beat out Con to AC for this build, especially with Bracers of Armor existing.

[artimus261]

those do look pretty damn good but in the end i rly don't care much for the incarnum classes and really just need the midnight, i did look at azurin and thought about it but it didn't rly save me anything, I'm still gonna have to get bonus essentia as a feat, though if i did go azurin i could still have 4 ess in midnight dodge all day and have 1 for the soulmelds id have as a lvl 1 totemist or incarnate. And the thing is i rly want my class to hit hard and early in encounters and i'm even picking up rapid assault for it

And i have the trait for Cautious, giving me a +1 AC when fighting defensively, but -1 vs fear

might seem a little wonky but considering i can fight defensively and get a +5 AC for a -4 attack and get a +1d6 damage with my rapier it feels better than combat expertise, though i can't dip into like i can with Combat Expertise of course

Still, with this I can get that +5 fighting defensively bonus against everything and still get a +2 dodge from swash, +1 from dodge feat, and +4 from midnight, letting me get up to a +12 bonus against one target, or dividing it up any way i'd like among multiple targets, maximizing elusive target.

just to be frustrating i rly want duelist levels but can even begin to figure out how to work them in up to a level that matters

and swordsage is a pretty boss alternative, dropping warblade to 7(which is the last level im rly after in the class) and picking up 2 swordsage could be pretty rewarding, though my int and dex are gonna be better no matter what than that and maybe going 2 duelist instead could be good though in the end all it would do is get me another 2 AC and initiative(but the +3 Ref could be nice too) hmmmm.... ultimate fencer how do??? xP

[artimus261]

i looked at incarnum blade and it does seem so good, even being able to make my rapier A cooler, B more durable, and C able to grant myself some various bonuses with just 1 level is pretty freakin boss. the only problem is it grants no essentia and i would be stuck with 3, needing to pick up another feat to get that last 1 i care about xU

at least with incarnate I get some actual soulmelds and even if i don't invest anything they do SOMETHING which i won't hate, i get a point of essentia which sadly is essential... lol? and i would get the weird ability to sense my opposition which could be kinda cool, would definitely be good if i was trying to figure out if i was fighting a bad guy or not, going nonlethal if not <3 in the end i'm still stuck on incarnate even though i kinda hate the classes in that book i need that midnight dodge at it's full potential. i've still been considering going azurin and getting the 5 essentia and actually getting the feat to increase the capacity for it, giving me a +5 midnight, +2 dodge bonus, and +1 dodge feat which i must say is pretty cool

still looking at Defensive Opportunist as well to help shrug off a little of the fighting defensive penalties here and there

[Darrin]

i looked at incarnum blade and it does seem so good, even being able to make my rapier A cooler, B more durable, and C able to grant myself some various bonuses with just 1 level is pretty freakin boss. the only problem is it grants no essentia and i would be stuck with 3, needing to pick up another feat to get that last 1 i care about xU


I suggested Incarnum Blade because it does allow you to shape a soulmeld, which means Bonus Essentia kicks in 2 essentia instead of 1. The other thing it does is it offers early access to the soul chakra (sorta), which unlocks a few things that would normally require 19 levels of Incarnate. If what you need is 4 essentia with a minimum number of feats, Azurin + Midnight Dodge + Incarnum Blade 1 + Bonus Essentia would get you there.

There is one Incarnum PrC that is definitely worth a look: Umbral Disciple 3, which gives you 2 essentia, sneak attack +1d6, and Hide in Plain Sight (Su).

[artimus261]

I suggested Incarnum Blade because it does allow you to shape a soulmeld, which means Bonus Essentia kicks in 2 essentia instead of 1. The other thing it does is it offers early access to the soul chakra (sorta), which unlocks a few things that would normally require 19 levels of Incarnate. If what you need is 4 essentia with a minimum number of feats, Azurin + Midnight Dodge + Incarnum Blade 1 + Bonus Essentia would get you there.

There is one Incarnum PrC that is definitely worth a look: Umbral Disciple 3, which gives you 2 essentia, sneak attack +1d6, and Hide in Plain Sight (Su).

Hmmm, i don't know why i didn't think about azurin+midnight for bonus essentia, not sure why that didn't click, that would work out pretty well.... darn it xD everyone's making this harder by giving great advice :P

[animewatcha]

If you are going elusive target, you already have 2 feats pre-reqs for Temerad mastery 1 ( dragon 309 ). Pick up IUS and spring attack and you can get a 'free add-on' feat. +1 bonus from the dodge feat(s) rise to +2 and you get your choice to employ the entire +2 against a single target or split the bonus amongst multiple. Making elusive target usable against more than one foe. Pick an additional feat of combat expertise and 12 ranks of truespeak ( tome of magic ), and each dodge target gets to be subjected extraordinary total concealment ( 50 miss chance ).

[artimus261]

oh god :( i've never ever ever ever used dragon magazine stuff just cuz i didn't want to start looking through them for stuff :( but just read that thing and oh god it's so good for this build, between two targets for dodge and a target for midnight dodge that's already 3 people under the effects of elusive target, then the +2 dodge bonus from the swashbuckler's dodge bonus... that's +4 from midnight, +2 from dodge, and +2 from dodge bonus.... ugh... why did you do this to me!? is there a place to find everything from dragon magazines compiled into a single source??? :U

[animewatcha]

Midnight Dodge can serve as "dodge" for pre-reqs on things. Meaning you can use Midnight dodge to trigger elusive target, word given form, and temerad mastery 1.

There are sources for dragon mag ( ask your group beforehand about drag mag cause some are yay and some are nay ) that could be given but those are against the rules to give out ( illegal obtaining ).