[3.5] Kalashtar Psionic Theurge Build Required

[Thurbane]

Need help with a Psionic Theurge build. I know next to nothing about psionics.

Here's my requirements:

A.) Race MUST be Kalashtar.
B.) The arcane side MUST be Sorcerer or Wizard.
C.) As SAD as possible (ideally either INT based for a Wizard, or CHA based for a Sorcerer).
D.) Official 3.5 sources only, including online and 3.0 material that isn't updated.
E.) It may go without saying due to point D, but just to be sure, no Dragon Magazine (except the compendium), no Pathfinder.

Shooting for around ECL 8-9.

Other than that, go nuts.

Cheers - T

[xkroku]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as Psiomic Theurge. There is Psychic Theurge, but that's Psionics/Divine. I'll assume you were reffering to Cerebremancer, the Psionics/Arcane dual casting class

So, I don't know how much optimized you want, so I'll go with the standard dual caster.

Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremamcer 10/something 4

There aren't many Arcane/Psionic classes. This is the basic build. If you are starting on early levels, instead of Wizard 3, go Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/sth 6 and take Precocious Apprentice as your 1st level feat.

If you wamt this build highly optimized, I'm afraid you'll need to go with Beholder Mage cheese.

[Thurbane]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as Psiomic Theurge. There is Psychic Theurge, but that's Psionics/Divine. I'll assume you were reffering to Cerebremancer, the Psionics/Arcane dual casting class.

That's what I meant, yes. I was using the term psionic theurge to mean a combination of casting and psionics, rather than referring to an actual class.

Sorry if that was unclear.


So, I don't know how much optimized you want, so I'll go with the standard dual caster.

Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremamcer 10/something 4

There aren't many Arcane/Psionic classes. This is the basic build. If you are starting on early levels, instead of Wizard 3, go Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/sth 6 and take Precocious Apprentice as your 1st level feat.

If you wamt this build highly optimized, I'm afraid you'll need to go with Beholder Mage cheese.

It doesn't have to be super optimized, but early entry on one or both sides would be good.

[Tiri]

It doesn't have to be super optimized, but early entry on one or both sides would be good.

Well, you could simply take Precocious Apprentice on the Wizard side to fulfil the casting requirement at level 1.

[xkroku]

So let's see...

Since you're going with Kalashtar, I'd reccomend Telepathy for your Psionic discipline, due to Racial Substitution Levels. Telepath-specific powers gives you some utility powers (Charm, Read Thoughts, Suggestion, Mindlink), some support powers (Suppress Compulsion, Brain Lock) and some combat onec (Crisis of Life). I generally like this discipline.

As for wizard, you cand do what you please, go Generalist of Focused Conjurer, you're a wizard after all, you gonna be good.

Both Wizard and Psion cast from Intelligence, so you'll be mostly SAD

The build is: Wizard 1/Telepath 3/Cerebremancer 1/Anarchic Initiate 1/Cerebremancer 9/{Wizard or Wizard PrC} 5

You'll need any Chaotic alignment for Anarchic Initiate PrC

32 PB
Str: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

I wouldn't personally dump charisma, but you're free to do so, if you want more of a combat build.

Level 1
Class: Wizard 1
Flaws: Noncombatant, Murky-Eyed
Feats: Overchannel, Talented, Precocious Apprentice, Scribe Scroll/Improved Initiative

Overchannel and Talented are awesome feats for psion, Precocious Apprentice for early entry.
You gain 1 pp from being a Kalashtar.
Put your skill points in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (psionics) and Knowledge (the planes). You'll need at least 6 in two first by level 4, and at least 8 in two last by level 5.
Feel free to choose any familiar you like.
You can stick with Scribe Scroll, or go combat wizard ACF with Improved Initiative.

Level 2
Class: Kalashtar Telepath 1
Feats: none

So, you gain second pp form your race, so now you should have whole 6 of them.
You're trading your bonus feat for a boost to ML when manifesting Telepathy powers, and more powerful racial PLA.
For your powers I recommend: Charm, Psionic, Energy Ray, Internal Armor

Level 3
Class: Telepath 2
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity

Just a regular level, nothing special. you should have 11 pp.
You're getting a psicrystal, choose a nice personality for him (I suggest Friendly, Nimble, or Single-Minded)
Recommended powers: Vigor, Grease, Psionic

Level 4
Class: Kalashtar Telepath 3
Feats: none

Trading one of your powers known for a second psicrystal personality (again, Friendly, Nimble, or Single-Minded are great)
You're gettin 2nd level powers now! for example:
Amethyst Burst (offensive)
Damp Power (defensive)
Control Sound (Utility)


For level 5 take one cerebremancer level, not much to talk here tbh
Level 6
Class: Anarchic Initiate 1
Feats: Practised Spellcaster (fabout time eh?)

This class is absolutely awesome for a 1-level dip. you're getting a great ability called Chaotic Surge. When using your Overchannel feat you have 25% chance of manifesting normally, 25% chance to get -50% of all variable numeric effects, 25% of free Empower and 25% of free Maximize! (without increasing the cost ofc)

For next 9 levels take Cerebremancer.
And the remaining levels you can fill with anything that advances arcane casting (or manifesting of you like, but there isn't any other class that advances both).

You'll end up with Arcane casting level 16 and Manifesting level 14.
Bot I think you'll be better with Manifesting 15/Arcane 15, so at the finishing 5 levels just go 4 Arcane/1 Psionic.

Don't forget to get Practised Manifester feat at some point (probably at level 18).

Hope I helped! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Cerebremancer is one of the rare theurges where only advancing one side still results in a strong character. Treat it almost like a light gestalt, with an "active" and "passive" side - Wizard is of course the active side and gets all the level boosts when you're done with CM. Psion is there purely to give you more actions - Schism, Temporal Acceleration, Hustle, Linked/Twinned Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, you name it.

Go Psion 3/Wiz 1 (PA)/Cerebremancer 10/Wiz{PrC} +6 and you'll get 9th-level wizard spells and plenty of action economy and other tricks (like self-healing) to use with them. Grab Practiced X on both sides.

Your Schism can't help you cast most spells (it can't provide somatic or verbal components for example) but it can concentrate on both spells and powers for you, regain your focus, use Still+Silent spells, direct active spells while you move etc.

[ATHATH]

Remember the #1 rule of Psionics: You cannot spend more PP on a power (base cost+augmentations) than your ML.

[Rebel7284]

Spell to Power Erutide, if official online content is allowed does the theurge better than any theurge.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think there's a point theurging with Cerebremancer. It's a completely boring class.

At ECL 8, you'll need early entry, or you'll be stuck with psion 3/wizard 3/cerebremancer 2, getting 5th-level casting and manifesting at best. As far as I know, there's no early entry for psionic classes, because there's no Heighten Power, so you'll be looking at wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 4, which means you get 5th-level wizard casting and 7th-level psion casting. Strong enough, but the lack of class features means you really need to know what you can do with powers, and since you're apparently new to psionics, I wouldn't recommend that.

How about a nice StP erudite, instead? Pick up Psionic Meditation, Linked Power, and Metapower (Linked synchronicity), and you're set. Same weakness in terms of being psionics-heavy, but without the additional burden of theurging, and with the potential to PrC into something more interesting.



If you can bribe your DM to allow a Dragon PrC, pick Mind Mage and don't look back. It's the only psionic theurge PrC worth using. N.B. this is not an optimization thing. Cerebremancer is just that boring.

[Psyren]

I don't think there's a point theurging with Cerebremancer. It's a completely boring class.

At ECL 8, you'll need early entry, or you'll be stuck with psion 3/wizard 3/cerebremancer 2, getting 5th-level casting and manifesting at best.

You're treating manifesting exactly like spellcasting (i.e. any delay in casting progression is anathema) but it doesn't work that way; psionics is special thanks to augmentation. Take your psi3/wiz3/CM 2 with no early entry - all it needs is a single feat (Practiced Manifester) and it can augment all its low-level powers to ECL 8, keeping pace with level appropriate challenges. Its energy ray will do 8d6, it will have Charm Monster instead of Charm Person, it will have Astral Construct IV etc. Your augmentable powers will be every bit as strong as those of a Psion 8, and you can employ useful tactics other psions can't like using Invisibility wands besides.



since you're apparently new to psionics, I wouldn't recommend that. How about a nice StP erudite, instead?

I definitely would not recommend StP Erudite to a new player; its usefulness to someone newer depends entirely on how their GM chooses to interpret Unique Powers Per Day, and how easily they can add magical spells to their repertoire. (Which, if you'll remember, cannot be done with scrolls the way a wizard can - they must actually find live arcane casters whose brains they can pick.) They also need to add discipline powers to their repertoire the same way, or resort to Expanded Knowledge.

[Rebel7284]

You're treating manifesting exactly like spellcasting (i.e. any delay in casting progression is anathema) but it doesn't work that way; psionics is special thanks to augmentation. Take your psi3/wiz3/CM 2 with no early entry - all it needs is a single feat (Practiced Manifester) and it can augment all its low-level powers to ECL 8, keeping pace with level appropriate challenges. Its energy ray will do 8d6, it will have Charm Monster instead of Charm Person, it will have Astral Construct IV etc. Your augmentable powers will be every bit as strong as those of a Psion 8, and you can employ useful tactics other psions can't like using Invisibility wands besides.

while the augmentable nature of psionics does make slightly more psionic powers CR appropriate than practiced Spellcaster does for spells, the underlying issue remains. Higher level spells and powers are better. Astral construct nonwithstanding.



I definitely would not recommend StP Erudite to a new player; its usefulness to someone newer depends entirely on how their GM chooses to interpret Unique Powers Per Day, and how easily they can add magical spells to their repertoire. (Which, if you'll remember, cannot be done with scrolls the way a wizard can - they must actually find live arcane casters whose brains they can pick.) They also need to add discipline powers to their repertoire the same way, or resort to Expanded Knowledge.

Even with the conservative reading of powers per day, the class is still very good. As for scrolls.. I mean sure, it's slightly harder to learn, but unless the whole world is against you, it shouldn't be too hard to find a wizard who you can trade those scrolls you found for a chance to learn those same spells from them. Talking to your DM may still be good, but I feel that most of the issues that would trip up a STP Erutide would trip up any wizard

[Psyren]

while the augmentable nature of psionics does make slightly more psionic powers CR appropriate than practiced Spellcaster does for spells, the underlying issue remains. Higher level spells and powers are better. Astral construct nonwithstanding.

Oh certainly - but "not better" doesn't mean "not good enough." Most of the valuable psionic powers can be found in the first four levels.


Even with the conservative reading of powers per day, the class is still very good. As for scrolls.. I mean sure, it's slightly harder to learn, but unless the whole world is against you, it shouldn't be too hard to find a wizard who you can trade those scrolls you found for a chance to learn those same spells from them. Talking to your DM may still be good, but I feel that most of the issues that would trip up a STP Erutide would trip up any wizard

The class is definitely good, but restrictive UPD can make it very difficult for a newer player to use. You don't want to manifest Identify to solve a problem and then be forced to whip out the crossbow when skeletons show up.

As for finding a wizard - it's a lot more challenging to contrive a reason for a random wizard to be down in the dungeon or the ruins with you than it is to simply stick a scroll or two down there, and furthermore you don't have to worry about describing what happens if the rogue feels like picking his pocket.

[ATHATH]

If you can bribe your DM to allow a Dragon PrC, pick Mind Mage and don't look back. It's the only psionic theurge PrC worth using. N.B. this is not an optimization thing. Cerebremancer is just that boring.
Seconding this.

Regardless of what type of Theurge you choose, I recommend choosing Ardent as your Psionic side. Not only can you customize your Mantles to basically make you a Psion anyway, but Ardents multiclass really well because of their unique manifesting method.

Check out the Ardent handbook for details on that trick (or search up "Ardent Practiced Manifester").

[Psyren]

Doesn't Mind Mage lose a bunch of casting on both sides?

[ATHATH]

Doesn't Mind Mage lose a bunch of casting on both sides?
Yes, but it's much easier to enter at 3rd level, still lets you get ninths, and you add your Mind Mage level to your CL and ML (in addition to the CL advancement that you get from MM advancing your spellcasting/manifesting). It's an Ardent's wet dream, and even if you're just a Psion, the increased ML is really good, and possibly worth the lower progression.

[Psyren]

Well I agree then - if it lets you double-dip ML then it's clearly superior. (It's also a textbook case for why Dragon Magazine content gets restricted/banned at most tables.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well I agree then - if it lets you double-dip ML then it's clearly superior. (It's also a textbook case for why Dragon Magazine content gets restricted/banned at most tables.)
It's a powerful class, but the ML/CL boost is a pretty mundane part of that, it's the metamagic that makes the difference :smalltongue:. With the CL/ML boost, low-level spells and powers become strong enough to partially replace 8ths and 9ths (think Ultimate Magus/True Necromancer), which is just what a theurge needs.

For example, a 16th-level Mind Mage (psion 3/wizard 1/cerebremancer 2/mind mage 10) gets 13th-level manifesting and 11th-level casting, but at ML 23 and CL 21, thanks to the capstone ability.
At level 15, they get 12th-level manifesting and 10th-level casting, with either ML 21/CL 10 or ML 12/CL 19.

(note: MM casting/manifesting can't be extended with Legacy Champion, so that's as far as it goes)


Anyhow, I'm not arguing that it's not a really strong class, I just like talking about my favourite PrC. Mind Mage is like Incantatrix: the capstone is so good you almost forget there's crazy abilities well before that. Even if you have to play it carefully, it's still much more worthwhile than Cerebremancer.

[lord_khaine]

Regardless of what type of Theurge you choose, I recommend choosing Ardent as your Psionic side. Not only can you customize your Mantles to basically make you a Psion anyway, but Ardents multiclass really well because of their unique manifesting method.

Check out the Ardent handbook for details on that trick (or search up "Ardent Practiced Manifester").

Yeah Ardent is more or less the default early entry trick for psionics :)

[Thurbane]

Lots of good suggestions so far, thanks all! :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

Yeah Ardent is more or less the default early entry trick for psionics :)
... What early entry?

[lord_khaine]

... What early entry?

That the level of powers you can pick up as a Ardent is depending on your manifester level, and not your Ardent Class level.

[ATHATH]

That the level of powers you can pick up as a Ardent is depending on your manifester level, and not your Ardent Class level.
Ah, ok, you were referring to that.

You can actually enter Mind Mage at level 3 without exploiting that, IIRC, using Magical Training and/or(?) Athasian Human.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ah, ok, you were referring to that.

You can actually enter Mind Mage at level 3 without exploiting that, IIRC, using Magical Training and/or(?) Athasian Human.
Hmm, maybe. You need third-level spells and second-level powers, so Magical Training won't cut it. You do also need two psi-spell feats, and that cuts down on space for early entry tricks. Assuming you can use Eldritch Corruption as single-feat arcane qualification, that leaves psionic qualification. I don't think Athasian Human qualifies by itself, but if there's a special trick for them, I'd be very interested in hearing it. They do start the game with a first-level psionic power and 3 pp, so that's nice.

[Anthrowhale]

Remember the #1 rule of Psionics: You cannot spend more PP on a power (base cost+augmentations) than your ML.

There is an asterisk for a theurge though. If the arcane side can jack their caster level then Mental Pinnacle allows you to get a very high manifester level. Unfortunately, the best approach (Psiotheurge) is off the table. Maybe a late entry into red wizard to finish up?