Force WSA: opinions on sane rulings and abuse

[Jowgen]

MIC features the following +2 weapon special ability that's a staple for archers:


A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don’t damage creatures immune to force effects. Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition

It's table-summary at the end of MIC is "Turns projectiles into force attacks; projectile weapons only", and it is arguably an update of the following item from A&E, which even has the same crafting prerequesites and is priced as if it's force aspect were a +2:


This +2 mighty (+3) composite longbow imbues each arrow shot from it with magical force. Arrows shot from the bow of force become force attacks that have no miss chance against incorporeal targets and bypass damage reduction, but they don’t damage creatures immune to force effects.

Rules Stuff

The term "Force Attack" is not defined in game (I think there are less than 10 uses of the terms across all books) and seems to simply refer to any attack that uses Force (e.g. [Force] descriptor spells). "Force projectile" isn't defined either. The only things that come close are the "projectile created from pure force" used by the Invisible Needle reserve feat, and the Ethereal Volley power from CP, through which "Projectiles (such as arrows and bolts) transform into missiles of pure force", with the only listed explcit effect being that they gain Ghost touch. Regardless, being made of pure force is not the same as being a Force Projectile. In fact, it might just mean that it is a projectile with the Force WSA property, same as a Flaming Projectile or Holy Projectile.

The only solid defintion we have is that of "Force Damage" from the Glossary:


A special type of damage dealt by force effects, such as a magic missile spell. A force effect can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality.

The above doesn't actually state that Force Effects inherently deal Force Damage, only incidentally making it clear that all Force Effects can affect incorpreal creatures. From the rules on Etherealness, we also know that Force Effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane as well. Lastly, from the description of Riverine from Stormwrack, we know that magical force "is immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells" (the common anti-force effects are listed afterwards).

What we know

We know for certain that the fired ammunition a) overcomes DR because the text says so, and b) additionally gains all the benefits and draw-backs of being a Force Effect; meaning they affect incorpreals/incorporeals but are also subject to things that counter force effects (i.e. Force Dragons, Forceward, etc.).

However, the ammunition does by RAW not actually deal Force Damage (even though that would be the easist way to explain the DR). It deals its damage as normal, just with the added effects of DR-overcoming and Force Effects boons/cons. As written, the composition of the projectile does not change either, as being a "force attack" or "force projectile" has no defined mechanical effect (i.e. likely the same as "flaming projectile"). It simply has the properties/limitations of being a Force Effect added onto its regular properties (as happens with just about every other WSA).

As such, a Cold Iron Arrow shot from a +1 Blessed Force Bow deals Good-aligned, Cold-Iron Piercing damage that also overcomes DR and affects things as a Force Effect when that becomes relevant. The A&E fluff description about how it "imbues each arrow shot from it with magical force" seems to actually be more apt than the potentially misleading "force projectile" phrasing from MIC.

The abuse potential/Need for rulings

Some like to argue that the Force WSA bypasses Windwall. I personally am included to disagree with this, as being a Force Effect does not preclude being an Arrow/Bolt, and as detailed above, the "force projectile" things does not have any actual baring on the composition on the Arrows/Bolt (unless you go with the A&E version, in which case it is also "imbued" with Force).

What I argue is that, Force is unique in that it does not simply bestow its property upon it's ammunition like e.g. Flaming, but explicitly alters any ammuntion it fires, without any mention of this being a temporary alteration. The projectile fired does not loose its Force Effect properties after the attack is resolves, so if the projectile is not destroyed upon hit (as per the ammunition rules, which take precidence over the Force Effect indestructability rules), whether it be due to Snatch Arrow, the 50% recovery chance upon a miss, or anything else of the sort; then one is left with a piece of "also a Force Effect" ammunition.

The first obvious piece of dairy here is that a single character with a Force Weapon can create a nigh infinite number of Force Projectiles for other people with regular weapons to use. Simply standing at a firing range and sacrificing half of your arrows can leave you with the other half of your arrows severely upgraded and ready for re-sale.

The more significant piece of dairy comes into play when you move onto projectiles that aren't Bolts or Arrow. Siege Engines, Ice Chuckers (which can fire icicles or javelins), regular Slings, and even the Gnome Calculus from A&E should all eligible for being made into Force weapons. What you end up with are RAW materials that also count as Force Effects and are thus both ethereal/incorpreal proof, as well as mostly indestructable. You could fire a bunch of logs with your ballistae so they land in a lake, and you now have indestructable logs with which to build a fort. Do the same with a Catapult for stones to build your stronghold. There are bound to be more exotic projectile weapons out there to allow for further customization. In essence, the Force WSA seems to (by RAW) allow you to make discount Riverine, with the bonus that the base-qualities of your materials are not lost in the process.

I think this works by RAW, but personally I would also think it reasonable to rule that the Force benefit ends when the attack ends. Where do you stand on this, and can you see any other potential abuses of the Force WSA?

[Jowgen]

Nothing? I thought indestructable material creation cheese would be a more popular area of dicussion...:smallfrown:

[ATHATH]

What makes the ammunition indestructible? The projectiles just happen to be able to pierce DR and ignore incorporeal miss chance.

[Venger]

What makes the ammunition indestructible? The projectiles just happen to be able to pierce DR and ignore incorporeal miss chance.

They are made of force, which means they can only be destroyed via disintegrate and similar.

[Jowgen]

What makes the ammunition indestructible? The projectiles just happen to be able to pierce DR and ignore incorporeal miss chance.

This is based on the notion that Force effect objects (e.g. Force Ladder) are, unlesss stated otherwise, immune to damage (though always countered by Disintegrate et al.), which I thought was generally accepted. The quick reference I used for this is from Riverine's description: "Being enclosed in magical force, it is immune to all damage". Or are you saying that the projectiles shouldn't get this benefit based on my argument that their composition doesn't change into actually being made of Force?

Even if Force-indestructability is denied, you're still left with material that forevermore affects incorporeals and overcomes DR; which I think is still quite the exploit in need of ruling.

EDIT: Did some digging, and Dragon 323 p. 79 (an article presenting new force spells) explicitly states: "Nothing can damage a Force Effect, including other Force effects.". An earlier part of the text also implies that Force projectiles ignore Hardness and deal full damage to objects, but by RAW only Force descriptor spells (as opposed to all Force effects) get this benefit. Since Force projectiles aren't "entirely made out of force" but are still force effects, this would arguably mean that disintegrate doesn't apply, but that's just silly in my book.

[CasualViking]

RAI is either that the missiles are temporarily encased in force, or transformed into force effects (I favor the latter).
Either way, the creation of persistent missiles capable of [things] is highly dubious as RAI, and is not supported by RAW either. There's no support for the idea that these misslies are permanently changed after the attack has been resolved.

[Agahnim]

Looks like you need some sleep, OP.
As someone already stated, the obvious RAI is that the arrow/bolt/boulder/banana is wrapped in or transformed into Force until it hits, at which points it disappears if it hits, or can be recovered with a 50% chance if it misses (following ammo rules). Note that even RAW, the arrow wouldn't survive a hit. Ammunition, magical or otherwise, is lost upon hitting a target (it doesn't "suffer enough """damage""" to destroy it", it's just plain unusable - shaft broken, energy spent, fluff it as you like).
Besides, I don't see how the force WSA differs from others. All magic projectile weapons bestow their effects on their ammunition. Does this mean that I could buy a +1 flaming bow, fire thousands of plain arrows with it, and recover +1 flaming arrows from missed shots?

[Bronk]

All magic projectile weapons bestow their effects on their ammunition. Does this mean that I could buy a +1 flaming bow, fire thousands of plain arrows with it, and recover +1 flaming arrows from missed shots?

Hmm, I'm away from my books... is there a rule that disallows this?

[Venger]

Hmm, I'm away from my books... is there a rule that disallows this?

No, there is not.

[Telonius]

That was the idea behind a Monk-based Magic Arrow Factory/Firing Range (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331278-Magic-Bows-Ammunition-Snatch-Arrows-Infinite-Magic-Arrows-for-Sale).

[Jowgen]

RAI is either that the missiles are temporarily encased in force, or transformed into force effects (I favor the latter).
Either way, the creation of persistent missiles capable of [things] is highly dubious as RAI, and is not supported by RAW either. There's no support for the idea that these misslies are permanently changed after the attack has been resolved.

In terms of RAI, I personally favor the "imbued with force" imagery from the A&E Bow of Force (as opposed to turned into Force or encased in force), but I do agree that RAI wise the purpose of the Force WSA is NOT to create permanently Force-effect projectiles, but I think that would need a house-rule.

RAW wise, I don't see where there is support for the idea that the missiles revert after the attack is resolved. The text states that the WSA does [things] to the projectiles, but makes no mention of those things being temporary or ending at a particular point. It is the same deal as with Splitting (unlike Arrow Split spell) allowing for endless ammo creation by RAW. Begging for balancing house-ruling, but still RAW.


As someone already stated, the obvious RAI is that the arrow/bolt/boulder/banana is wrapped in or transformed into Force until it hits, at which points it disappears if it hits, or can be recovered with a 50% chance if it misses (following ammo rules). Note that even RAW, the arrow wouldn't survive a hit. Ammunition, magical or otherwise, is lost upon hitting a target (it doesn't "suffer enough """damage""" to destroy it", it's just plain unusable - shaft broken, energy spent, fluff it as you like).
Besides, I don't see how the force WSA differs from others. All magic projectile weapons bestow their effects on their ammunition. Does this mean that I could buy a +1 flaming bow, fire thousands of plain arrows with it, and recover +1 flaming arrows from missed shots?

Well, things like Raptor Arrows and Stirge Bolts do survive hits, but of course the ammuntion rules about breakage take precedence over the force effect rules (i.e. breaks upon successful impact, 50% chance of being missed). Not disputing that.

The way by which Force differs is doesn't use the standard "bestow [...] upon their ammunition" wording/mechanic; which even the Ranged-only Exit Wound WSA uses. Force explicitly acts by doing [the things] to the ammunition, with no mention of a limited duration.

For the simplest example, what if someone with Snatch Arrows catches a Force Weapon fired Arrow? Where is the RAW stating that the Arrow, when subsequently used to stab someone as an improvised dagger, doesn't still count as a Force Attack?


Hmm, I'm away from my books... is there a rule that disallows this?

This doesn't quite apply to the current thread, as that's really a question on the limitations of the "bestows this property upon their ammunition" mechanic; but it is an interesting question. Depending on how that works out, there might be other WSAs that could be abused.


That was the idea behind a Monk-based Magic Arrow Factory/Firing Range (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331278-Magic-Bows-Ammunition-Snatch-Arrows-Infinite-Magic-Arrows-for-Sale).

Interesting. Again, doesn't quite apply since we're not dealing with your average "bestow property upon ammunition" WSA anymore; but good to see a similar exploit surive strict-RAW scruitiny. Personally, I'd probably rule that an arrow can only hold one weapons's bestowed properties at a time (i.e. no making mega-death arrows with all WSAs); but that's just me.

[Bronk]

This doesn't quite apply to the current thread, as that's really a question on the limitations of the "bestows this property upon their ammunition" mechanic; but it is an interesting question. Depending on how that works out, there might be other WSAs that could be abused.



Sure it does... you aren't just getting wee force arrow left over, it also still has its +X enchantment and whatever other magic property it had before.

You could send these things through a succession of magic bows to get a decreasing number of more powerfully enchanted force arrows.

[Jowgen]

Sure it does... you aren't just getting wee force arrow left over, it also still has its +X enchantment and whatever other magic property it had before.

You could send these things through a succession of magic bows to get a decreasing number of more powerfully enchanted force arrows.

Well I'm not saying it isn't a potentially rewarding venue, just making it clear that the "bestow" WSAs are their own basket, which needs to be seperately assessed in terms of rules, abuse potential and likely DM-adjucation. Having a look at the "bestower" WSAs without specific activation conditions, we have the energy damage ones, alignment-specific ones, the energy-subtype targeting ones, Bane-varieties, Burst Varieties, Exit Wound, Explosive and Sparkling (though not it's prerequ revealing...).

[Bronk]

Well I'm not saying it isn't a potentially rewarding venue, just making it clear that the "bestow" WSAs are their own basket, which needs to be seperately assessed in terms of rules, abuse potential and likely DM-adjucation. Having a look at the "bestower" WSAs without specific activation conditions, we have the energy damage ones, alignment-specific ones, the energy-subtype targeting ones, Bane-varieties, Burst Varieties, Exit Wound, Explosive and Sparkling (though not it's prerequ revealing...).

I'm seeing the 'bestow' ability as the root cause here...

I'm also envisioning a fortress made from colossal force ballista bolts shaped like Lincon Logs, with the flaming property for heat in the winter...

[Bad Wolf]

According to history, Mongols launched corpses with the Black Plague as an early form of biological warfare. Curious as to what happens if you do that..

[ExLibrisMortis]

As an interesting parallel issue, the Crystal Helm soulmeld can do this for melee attacks. It explicitly adds the [force] descriptor, but is otherwise entirely silent on what that means.


== Houserules from here ==
I would probably just call everything that's meant to be a force thingumajig in-universe a [force] effect, and define the descriptor: [force] effects deal force damage, are indestructible (except by disintegrate and similar effects), affect incorporeal creatures and extend into the ethereal plane, and overcome DR. Items with the [force] descriptor gain all these properties in addition to their other properties, e.g. a [force] +1 holy cold iron greatsword deals good-aligned slashing cold iron force damage, is indestructible, overcomes DR, affects incorporeal and ethereal targets, and so forth.


As for bows bestowing their property on ammunition (a separate issue from the [force] definition), I'd rule that that's temporary, as well. A simple one-round duration might nerf certain WSAs (I'm not sure which, but I bet there's one), so I'll just set it at 'end of encounter'. It's an OOC distinction, but it'll do.

[AOKost]

I know this isn't official since I can't find it RAW but I would rule that any and all SWA that apply their properties to ammunition would only be effective on one successful attack or 1 round if snatched, allowing it to be used as an improvised weapon or redirected. Any ammunition that doesn't strike a target (basically is lost) loosed the properties within 1 round, even if it's still being held after being snatched to prevent too many shenanigans...

[Remuko]

Wait does this mean if you launch a PC with a Force Catapult and they survive they're permanently made of force and indestructible because the property was bestowed on them (the ammunition)?

[Jowgen]

Wait does this mean if you launch a PC with a Force Catapult and they survive they're permanently made of force and indestructible because the property was bestowed on them (the ammunition)?

Unfortunately, I just managed to track down this piece of RAW on siege engine ammunition:


After a piece of magic siege ammunition has been used, it loses any magical powers it had, regardless of whether it hits or misses or if the ammunition can be recovered.


I do not see a way around this. On the bright side, Force siege engines appear to be a perfectly safe way of travel, as they will be Force effects all the while from firing to after the landing is resolved.

EDIT: Also, the interesting thing here is that you can make anything that is a legal piece of siege engine ammunition non-magical by firing it. For completeness, here is the RAW on what can be used as Catapult projectiles


Catapults can propel very large objects over incredibly long distances (up to 1,500 feet). Common projectiles include stones weighing from 40 to 150 pounds, massive javelinlike bolts, and even pots of burning oil and alchemist’s fire, which can burn down wooden structures within the stone walls, gutting a castle from the inside.
Troops have been known to load their catapults with anything available, including loose rubble, chains, discarded weapons,
odds and ends of armor, dead mounts, the severed heads of fallen enemy soldiers, and even live captives

[ExLibrisMortis]

EDIT: Also, the interesting thing here is that you can make anything that is a legal piece of siege engine ammunition non-magical by firing it. For completeness, here is the RAW on what can be used as Catapult projectiles
That is a pretty hilarious way to destroy an artifact. Although... it becomes non-magical, but does that mean it ceases to function?

[Remuko]

Damn so I can't use a ghost touch force catapult to launch a ghost and turn it into a FORCE Ghost

[Jowgen]

Damn so I can't use a ghost touch force catapult to launch a ghost and turn it into a FORCE Ghost

Well actually, as Ghost's are incorporeal, provided you can actually catapult them (Serren Wood catapult for non-magical Ghost touch should do) they will go right through the target and thus have neither hit nor missed, preserving the Force.

Schroedinger's Force Ghosts.

EDIT: Anyways, back onto serious talk, with siege engines being out RAW-wise; what we are left with are the following things to permanently imbue with Force.

- Arrows (inc. the "exceptionally large" bone-bow variety),
- Bolts (inc. Thunderstone-tipped and Grapplinghook+Rope varieties)
- Darts (for Blowgun, Atlatls or Fletched Dart for hand-crossbow Drg 349),
- Rocks & Lead-bullets used for Slings
- Priest Bullets & Alchemist's bullets
- Skiprocks (for Warsling)
- Flasks (for Gnome Calculus)
- Javelins (for Icechucker & Atlatl)
- Shared of ice/Icicles (for Icechucker)

As Javelin's are described as "light flexible spears designed for throwing", you might also be able to do Harpoons.

Indestructable Flasks seem like they might be useful for storing dangerous stuff and to avoid accidental breakage.
Arrows and Bolts might have the same utility as unbreakable daggers.
"Shard" is pretty broad, so one might be able to make some more specific shapes. Plus, un-melting ice might be handy.
If the Grappling-hook bolts work and include the rope, you got yourself indestructable rope that should still be flexible.
Javelins, as thick as a quarterstaff and 4-5 ft long, are probably the most useful for construction. Prison-cell bars that can't be smashed, or as something to bar a door with.

Actually, since the rules of force-effects don't preclude magical malleablitly, the Woodshape spell (or Iceshape for the ice-shards) with a bit of ingenunity could allow for the reshaping of Arrows, Bolts and Javelins into any desired shape. Indestructable doors, walls, arguably enitre buildings with enough castings. Also, the fact that any such structure will be comprised of many individual pieces would make it very time-consuming for someone to use the same magic to undo it.

[Venger]

Well actually, as Ghost's are incorporeal, provided you can actually catapult them (Serren Wood catapult for non-magical Ghost touch should do) they will go right through the target and thus have neither hit nor missed, preserving the Force.

Schroedinger's Force Ghosts.

EDIT: Anyways, back onto serious talk, with siege engines being out RAW-wise; what we are left with are the following things to permanently imbue with Force.

- Arrows (inc. the "exceptionally large" bone-bow variety),
- Bolts (inc. Thunderstone-tipped and Grapplinghook+Rope varieties)
- Darts (for Blowgun, Atlatls or Fletched Dart for hand-crossbow Drg 349),
- Rocks & Lead-bullets used for Slings
- Priest Bullets & Alchemist's bullets
- Skiprocks (for Warsling)
- Flasks (for Gnome Calculus)
- Javelins (for Icechucker & Atlatl)
- Shared of ice/Icicles (for Icechucker)

As Javelin's are described as "light flexible spears designed for throwing", you might also be able to do Harpoons.

Indestructable Flasks seem like they might be useful for storing dangerous stuff and to avoid accidental breakage.
Arrows and Bolts might have the same utility as unbreakable daggers.
"Shard" is pretty broad, so one might be able to make some more specific shapes. Plus, un-melting ice might be handy.
If the Grappling-hook bolts work and include the rope, you got yourself indestructable rope that should still be flexible.
Javelins, as thick as a quarterstaff and 4-5 ft long, are probably the most useful for construction. Prison-cell bars that can't be smashed, or as something to bar a door with.

Actually, since the rules of force-effects don't preclude magical malleablitly, the Woodshape spell (or Iceshape for the ice-shards) with a bit of ingenunity could allow for the reshaping of Arrows, Bolts and Javelins into any desired shape. Indestructable doors, walls, arguably enitre buildings with enough castings. Also, the fact that any such structure will be comprised of many individual pieces would make it very time-consuming for someone to use the same magic to undo it.

I don't see why siege engines are out.

While if you throw magical stuff (such as alchemist's fire for example) it immediately becomes mundane after the hit, that's only for stuff that was already magic when you put it into the bowl of the catapult or the bucket of the trebuchet.

what you need

is a +1 force siege engine.

then it imbues its payload with the force property, since that wasn't innate to the item itself. no dysfunction.

siege engines can explicitly throw monsters, so you could hurl the monk and let his punches deal force damage from now on. if there was any trepidation about putting a living target in the engine for mechanical or ethical reasons, you could pao him into a sack of flour or a pillow and then zap him

just to get it out of the way, build a really big siege engine and hurl smaller siege engines to have engines of pure force.

[ben-zayb]

Am I missing something here? Shot ammunition (aka those that gets turned into force) ends up being destroyed upon hit (or 50% of the time otherwise). Deflect/Snatch Arrows doesn't say it keeps the arrow from being destroyed .

[AOKost]

A set of 6 Splitting, Returning Force Shirkens... Sounds like a monks best friends! But only if you allow them to use their unarmed strike damage with them or one die less than their maximum. That always seemed fair anyway.

[CasualViking]

In terms of RAI, I personally favor the "imbued with force" imagery from the A&E Bow of Force (as opposed to turned into Force or encased in force), but I do agree that RAI wise the purpose of the Force WSA is NOT to create permanently Force-effect projectiles, but I think that would need a house-rule.

RAW wise, I don't see where there is support for the idea that the missiles revert after the attack is resolved. The text states that the WSA does [things] to the projectiles, but makes no mention of those things being temporary or ending at a particular point. It is the same deal as with Splitting (unlike Arrow Split spell) allowing for endless ammo creation by RAW. Begging for balancing house-ruling, but still RAW.

It doesn't say permanent (or "instantaneous") either. And the burden of proof is on the person trying to accomplish an action.

[Jowgen]

I don't see why siege engines are out.

While if you throw magical stuff (such as alchemist's fire for example) it immediately becomes mundane after the hit, that's only for stuff that was already magic when you put it into the bowl of the catapult or the bucket of the trebuchet.

Hmmm, I suppose it depends on how you read the "it had" in "looses any magical powers it had". I instinctually went with the looses-all-magical-properties reading, but I suppose one could just as well take it to simply mean enchantments upon the ammunition itself proper (i.e. all siege ammunition special abilities are 1 use).

Still, considering the [things] done to the siege ammo by Force as seperate from those seems like a bit of a stretch to me personally. On the bright side, the rule text does strongly imply that siege engine ammo (at least of the big-ass-stone variety) can be recovered even upon a successful hit. If Force works, then shooting big square blocks to use as building material seems no trouble.


Am I missing something here? Shot ammunition (aka those that gets turned into force) ends up being destroyed upon hit (or 50% of the time otherwise). Deflect/Snatch Arrows doesn't say it keeps the arrow from being destroyed .

Upon re-reading, you are correct it doesn't right out state this for ammunition; though I do think the "catch" part of Snatch Arrows does imply it. There is probably an FAQ response or other clarification to to this somehwere. *makes not to check at an opportune time*.


A set of 6 Splitting, Returning Force Shirkens... Sounds like a monks best friends! But only if you allow them to use their unarmed strike damage with them or one die less than their maximum. That always seemed fair anyway.

Splitting and Force only work on projectile weapons, not all ranged weapons, so not thrown weapons. That being said, it is a damn shame there is no "Shuriken Crossbow" out there...


It doesn't say permanent (or "instantaneous") either. And the burden of proof is on the person trying to accomplish an action.

What would the "action to accomplish" be in this scenario?

Force WSA on the projectile weapon is constantly active while carried ("Activation: -" entry) and does its [things] to the projetile the instant the projectile is fired. Unless an ability or effect has a listed duration or states a de-activation method, there is nothing to stop the ability or effect from functioning indefinitely. I recall Curmodgeon bringing this up in the RAW thread from time to time in response to questions deactivating supernatural abilities (which, incidentally, WSAs are); i.e. by RAW you can't, which I find a tad silly.