Can a fully equipped barbarian take off a tarrasque alone?

[Mrark]

Can a fully equipped barbarian take off a tarrasque alone? If yes, is there any tip to play it in the best way?

[Mike Miller]

No. Tarrasque will eat said barbarian. Done.

[Mrark]

No. Tarrasque will eat said barbarian. Done.

Totally no way? I'm talking about an optimised lvl 20 barb...

[Beheld]

Can a fully equipped barbarian take off a tarrasque alone? If yes, is there any tip to play it in the best way?

How much cheese do you want? Technically nothing stops a Barbarian from having cross class UMD ranks and then using the UMD spelldance to get as arbitrarily high CL as they want, and then Holy Wording the Tarrasque for instant death.

Or you could just build a dumb chargarian, and how your DM is nice enough to not trip you on the attack of opportunity, and do 9000 damage, and then drag the tarrasque to a river and hold him underwater until he drowns.

[xkroku]

Are we talking clean barb? Or an Ubercharging beast Barb/Frienzied Berserker?

If it's the second, there is a nice chance that said Tarrasque will be off after a single Barbarian's round... But you'ss still need someone to cast Wish or Miracle to keep him dead.

[Pleh]

No barbarian will beat a terrasque without some magic item to cast wish or miracle. Better be ready to pony up some cash for a ring of wishes. The drowning solution depends a great deal on how your DM interprets the drowning rules in light of the regenerating qualities of the terrasque. Even then, you have to hold it under for 10 to 15 minutes because of how long it can hold its breath.

[Beheld]

You absolutely do not need Frenzied Berserker for insane damage. I you can get 1:64 power attack ratio at least, so on 20 BAB on one attack that's already 1280 damage, enough to knock it unconscious through DR and fast regeneration. And that's before Pounce for all your other attacks, Strength damage, weapon damage, and stuff. Then you just move back 10ft and charge it's unconscious body a few times to build up 1 few hours worth of lee way, and then you can do whatever you want to kill it.

I mean, you are going to need to UMD Wish it dead at some point probably, because of that one line, but you can literally drag it's unconscious body around with your for years while you hunt down a genie or Glabrezu to do it for you.

You probably need something to make you immune to trip once, or not provoke AoOs on your charge. Might be a feat for that, or you could just give yourself concealment with some effect, that would solve the problem.


No barbarian will beat a terrasque without some magic item to cast wish or miracle. Better be ready to pony up some cash for a ring of wishes. The drowning solution depends a great deal on how your DM interprets the drowning rules in light of the regenerating qualities of the terrasque. Even then, you have to hold it under for 10 to 15 minutes because of how long it can hold its breath.

If the tarrasque is unconscious, then it can't hold it's breath. Not that it matters, because it's unconscious, so you can hold it there for days. But yes, even though they missed drowning in the regeneration list, the catchall "only be killed by" line probably means you need to Wish at some point.

[emeraldstreak]

No. Tarrasque will eat said barbarian. Done.

Naive.


How much cheese do you want? Technically nothing stops a Barbarian from having cross class UMD ranks and then using the UMD spelldance to get as arbitrarily high CL as they want, and then Holy Wording the Tarrasque for instant death.

Or you could just build a dumb chargarian, and how your DM is nice enough to not trip you on the attack of opportunity, and do 9000 damage, and then drag the tarrasque to a river and hold him underwater until he drowns.

Mad Foam Rager.

[Necroticplague]

Yes. Assuming 'fully equipped' includes a Ring of Wishes, or some similar item, there's no reason he can't ubercharge it for +yes amounts of damage, then wishing him dead while he's recovering.

[Darrin]

Can a fully equipped barbarian take off a tarrasque alone? If yes, is there any tip to play it in the best way?

It depends a great deal on the method you want to use. If you're just doing a straightforward Pouncebarian with PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, then it's actually not that hard to stack up your multipliers until you're doing 900+ damage per round. That's just a numbers game, give the forum a certain ECL and a GP budget and they can show you how to leverage the numbers until they are high enough.

There are many, many other methods: Ride it to death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188302-Silliness-Record-on-dropping-the-Tarrasque). Blister Oil Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12138520&postcount=94). Sacrifice abuse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15729441&postcount=9). Summon an allip. Or gate it to an all-water plane and wait until it drowns. There are lots of other methods.

[ShurikVch]

Dedicated grappler - even mono-class Barbarian - at 20th level able to just strangle the Tarrasque to death

Also, Tarrasque is remarkably stupid (Int 3); Crafty Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) Barbarian may just incapacitate it with some trap, and then finish it with Profession (Executioner)

[OldTrees1]

Yes a fully equipped 20th level Barbarian can defeat the Tarrasque alone.

To do so the Barbarian needs to achieve some smaller steps:


Reach operational range without dying. With much higher Int and access to special forms of movement from items, there is no issue with reaching operational range without injury. For example have a ring of blink to phase up through the floor from a tunnel underneath the Tarrasque.

Knock the Tarrasque out. Barbarians are known for their damage output. That can be sufficient. You just need to drop it faster than it drops you.

Permanently solve the Tarrasque. For example have damage over time that exceeds the Tarrasque's regen. Being submerged in acid is 10d6(average 35) per round which is just shy of the 40 regen. With only a 5hp difference you could be safe enough to just pile on non lethal damage manually until you have a long enough timer to go do other business. With enough time you could commission a resetting trap to do the final 5 damage per round so you can retire from your annual hack corpse task.

[Mrark]

Yes a fully equipped 20th level Barbarian can defeat the Tarrasque alone.

To do so the Barbarian needs to achieve some smaller steps:


Reach operational range without dying. With much higher Int and access to special forms of movement from items, there is no issue with reaching operational range without injury. For example have a ring of blink to phase up through the floor from a tunnel underneath the Tarrasque.

Knock the Tarrasque out. Barbarians are known for their damage output. That can be sufficient. You just need to drop it faster than it drops you.

Permanently solve the Tarrasque. For example have damage over time that exceeds the Tarrasque's regen. Being submerged in acid is 10d6(average 35) per round which is just shy of the 40 regen. With only a 5hp difference you could be safe enough to just pile on non lethal damage manually until you have a long enough timer to go do other business. With enough time you could commission a resetting trap to do the final 5 damage per round so you can retire from your annual hack corpse task.
Thanks mate :)

[Manyasone]

Google 'salt-in-wounds'

[Psyren]

Yes. Assuming 'fully equipped' includes a Ring of Wishes, or some similar item, there's no reason he can't ubercharge it for +yes amounts of damage, then wishing him dead while he's recovering.

This - clobber it and then use an item to keep it down, at 20 you should be able to afford it easily.

In PF, Wish can't keep it down, but you can always just make it willing by rendering it unconscious and then use your ring to Transport Travelers somewhere it can't do any harm, like a demiplane with no exits.

[Bad Wolf]

This seems like a good place. What happens if you keep it from eating? It turns into lethal damage, right?

And there's enough cheese to go around to smash it into Oblivion. I'd advise buying a ring of three wishes, with one remaining.

[Zancloufer]

So I did some quick math with medium PO. Straight Lion Totem Barbarian 20 with a decent 32 PB and some +6 items raging with a +5 GS Power Attack, Pounce, Shock trooper and Leap attack. 40 Str and 30 Con when raging no problem.

Dump 20 AC to deal about ~74 damage a hit (94 on the first set of attacks) which is about 59/79 an attack. First two auto-hit third has a 85% chance and the 4th a 60% chance. With a 10% chance for 2x crit your averaging ~285 damage first round and ~266 every other round after DR. Mind you the Tarrasque has 858 HP and Regen 30 so it takes 4 full attacks to drop.

In response the Tarrasque can get off 3 full attacks with a +to hit of YES (Well unless you as a barbarian have 80+ AC). Tarrasque averages 87 DPR which after 3 rounds is only 261 damage. Our 30 effective Con Barb with average HP rolls is packing 326 HP.

Interestingly enough if our Barbarian fails his DC 36 Will save (possible if he didn't invest in stuff like Con to Will saves or fear immunity) his DPS drops to a ~200 average after the first full attack allowing the Tarrasque to survive with ~40 HP after the 4th full attack which it can then retaliate with enough to drop our Barb to -22 with the Tarrasque sitting on a close ~70 HP left.


So essentially: If a half decent PO Barb charges and engages in the Full Attack routine trade with a Tarrasque it is a throw up who would win. Now you still need to Wish it dead but sitting a -HP beside a pissed off Barbarian is a great way to gain +Yes to your non-lethal damage total.

[tyckspoon]

So I did some quick math with medium PO. Straight Lion Totem Barbarian 20 with a decent 32 PB and some +6 items raging with a +5 GS Power Attack, Pounce, Shock trooper and Leap attack. 40 Str and 30 Con when raging no problem.

Dump 20 AC to deal about ~74 damage a hit (94 on the first set of attacks) which is about 59/79 an attack. First two auto-hit third has a 85% chance and the 4th a 60% chance. With a 10% chance for 2x crit your averaging ~285 damage first round and ~266 every other round after DR. Mind you the Tarrasque has 858 HP and Regen 30 so it takes 4 full attacks to drop.

In response the Tarrasque can get off 3 full attacks with a +to hit of YES (Well unless you as a barbarian have 80+ AC). Tarrasque averages 87 DPR which after 3 rounds is only 261 damage. Our 30 effective Con Barb with average HP rolls is packing 326 HP.

Interestingly enough if our Barbarian fails his DC 36 Will save (possible if he didn't invest in stuff like Con to Will saves or fear immunity) his DPS drops to a ~200 average after the first full attack allowing the Tarrasque to survive with ~40 HP after the 4th full attack which it can then retaliate with enough to drop our Barb to -22 with the Tarrasque sitting on a close ~70 HP left.


So essentially: If a half decent PO Barb charges and engages in the Full Attack routine trade with a Tarrasque it is a throw up who would win. Now you still need to Wish it dead but sitting a -HP beside a pissed off Barbarian is a great way to gain +Yes to your non-lethal damage total.

I would assume at least one bonus First-Attack bonus level attack from somewhere; Whirling Frenzy, Haste (plenty of magic items that can self grant it, including the core Boots of Speed), Speed weapon.. plenty of means of getting it, most of which are not terribly expensive or exotic and thus should fit easily in a PO concept. That will increase the first round charge damage, at least. For the succeeding rounds, did you account for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack only working on a charge? That will cut into the amount of Power Attack the Barbarian can use on those stand-and-slug rounds unless he has a means of rapidly dis-engaging and then re-charging the Tarrasque.

Reference numbers, as per this post:
40 Str, 20 levels full BAB, +5 weapon: +40 to hit, 42 on charge.
Tarrasque AC: 35.
Power Attack, not charging: Barb can only PA away 6 points and still keep his highest attack bonus in the only misses on a 1 range. That turns into a mere 12 points of extra damage when you don't get the Leap Attack multiplier, so 2d6 + 22 (15 str bonus, 1.5x two handed) + 12 (PA bonus) + 5 (weapon enhancement) is ~46 damage per hit.. minus 15 DR for no epic weapon is 31 per blow in the stand-and-trade phase. Would need to math more than I want to right now for expected DPR values with the less accurate hits, but I don't think that gets anywhere near 266 damage a round if you're just standing in one place and trading full attacks.

'course, not having mathed it, I'm happy to acknowledge being wrong if you can explain your assumptions a bit more. :smallsmile:
(Also yes a Barbarian can totally just HP-hammer the Tarrasque into the ground, but I think it's going to require front-loading that charge attack a bit more with bonus attacks/another multiplier/etc.)

[Zancloufer]

I would assume at least one bonus First-Attack bonus level attack from somewhere; Whirling Frenzy, Haste (plenty of magic items that can self grant it, including the core Boots of Speed), Speed weapon.. plenty of means of getting it, most of which are not terribly expensive or exotic and thus should fit easily in a PO concept. That will increase the first round charge damage, at least. For the succeeding rounds, did you account for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack only working on a charge? That will cut into the amount of Power Attack the Barbarian can use on those stand-and-slug rounds unless he has a means of rapidly dis-engaging and then re-charging the Tarrasque.

Reference numbers, as per this post:
40 Str, 20 levels full BAB, +5 weapon: +40 to hit, 42 on charge.
Tarrasque AC: 35.
Power Attack, not charging: Barb can only PA away 6 points and still keep his highest attack bonus in the only misses on a 1 range. That turns into a mere 12 points of extra damage when you don't get the Leap Attack multiplier, so 2d6 + 22 (15 str bonus, 1.5x two handed) + 12 (PA bonus) + 5 (weapon enhancement) is ~46 damage per hit.. minus 15 DR for no epic weapon is 31 per blow in the stand-and-trade phase. Would need to math more than I want to right now for expected DPR values with the less accurate hits, but I don't think that gets anywhere near 266 damage a round if you're just standing in one place and trading full attacks.

'course, not having mathed it, I'm happy to acknowledge being wrong if you can explain your assumptions a bit more. :smallsmile:
(Also yes a Barbarian can totally just HP-hammer the Tarrasque into the ground, but I think it's going to require front-loading that charge attack a bit more with bonus attacks/another multiplier/etc.)

Hmm Shock Trooper does indeed only work on a charge. Forgot that part.

Could still probably do it. Anklet of Translocation + Haste nets us +1 attack/round, the ability to charge up to three consecutive times and improves our hit slightly giving us about ~370 DPR and with Regen 30 it would only take 3 charges to kill our Tarrasque.

Basically > Charge + Full attack for ~335 damage > eat a full attack > Swift action Back 10 ft and charge again for 335 damage > eat a full attack > Swift action Back 10 ft and charge again for 335 damage Big T Dead.

[Calthropstu]

The tarrasque is the easiest epic monster to completely and utterly neutralize.
Sending it to another plane, ability drain, and several other methods exist to bring it down. The ballista -> Bag of holding -> portable hole trick auto wins against the tarrasque, no saving throw, no sr, nothing short of something else hitting it with dimensional anchor beforehand will stop it. Against any high level character, the tarrasque is a fish in a barrel.

If you are talking an all out slug fest, then the answer is both yes and no. The Tarrasque cannot be permanently killed in that fashion, so the Barbarian would eventually succumb to exhaustion, hunger, needing to go to the bathroom, boredom...

So the Tarrasque would simply lay there pummeled until the barbarian stopped. Then it would stand back up as if nothing had happened.

[JNAProductions]

In a word? Yes.

In two? Yes, totally.

In many more? With decent (not even high-just decent) optimization, you should be able to wipe the Tarrasque out pretty easily, and have enough WBL to afford a Wish to keep it dead.

[Zancloufer]

If you are talking an all out slug fest, then the answer is both yes and no. The Tarrasque cannot be permanently killed in that fashion, so the Barbarian would eventually succumb to exhaustion, hunger, needing to go to the bathroom, boredom...

So the Tarrasque would simply lay there pummeled until the barbarian stopped. Then it would stand back up as if nothing had happened.

Just wail on it for like an hour or two so it takes a good 2-4 hours to actually wake up again and then throw it into a lake or ocean. It will probably take a good minute or two to fail it's check vs suffocation then it's stuck in a perpetual loop of being reduced to 0 HP every round.

I mean it's not dead, but it's pretty much SoL until someone goes and rescues it. Or you find a Wizard to wish it deader.

[Zephonim]

You absolutely do not need Frenzied Berserker for insane damage. I you can get 1:64 power attack ratio at least, so on 20 BAB on one attack that's already 1280 damage, enough to knock it unconscious through DR and fast regeneration. And that's before Pounce for all your other attacks, Strength damage, weapon damage, and stuff. Then you just move back 10ft and charge it's unconscious body a few times to build up 1 few hours worth of lee way, and then you can do whatever you want to kill it.

I mean, you are going to need to UMD Wish it dead at some point probably, because of that one line, but you can literally drag it's unconscious body around with your for years while you hunt down a genie or Glabrezu to do it for you.

You probably need something to make you immune to trip once, or not provoke AoOs on your charge. Might be a feat for that, or you could just give yourself concealment with some effect, that would solve the problem.



If the tarrasque is unconscious, then it can't hold it's breath. Not that it matters, because it's unconscious, so you can hold it there for days. But yes, even though they missed drowning in the regeneration list, the catchall "only be killed by" line probably means you need to Wish at some point.


How the hell do you get 64 damage per base attack bonus?


I know power attack and leap attack with two handed can get it to 1:4

[Sagetim]

How the hell do you get 64 damage per base attack bonus?


I know power attack and leap attack with two handed can get it to 1:4

I'm wondering that too. I think the highest I ever saw in action was on a charging greatsword fighter and he would use Combat Brute's Momentum Swing in conjunction with Retribution (which I didn't realize was a dragon magazine feat until now). That said, why isn't the barbarian we are theory crafting here using a +5 bane weapon? It's not that expensive for a level 20 character to have, even if it's just a back up weapon. Would the +2 more enhancement bonus from bane not tick it over to counting as bypassing epic dr since it would be a +7 weapon against those targets?

[Rerednaw]

Pure core barbarian or are we allowing spells? Even a barbarian using a base L size weapon (say Greathorn Greathammer) and Greater Mighty Wallop (npc spell casting or even a custom at-will wondrous item) you've hit Colossal for base capped damage at 8d6 with x4 crit...before shenanigans for auto-critting or bumping the multiplier higher and of course an very high base damage bonus.

Of course I like the altitude sickness permadeath solution. Works in 3.5.

[Beheld]

How the hell do you get 64 damage per base attack bonus?


I know power attack and leap attack with two handed can get it to 1:4

Leap Attack with Two Handed Weapon is 1:4.

Valorus weapon doubles on charge damage, so that's 1:8.
BattleJump from Unapproachable East doubles charge damage when you come down on them, so 1:16.
Headlong Rush (requires Orc) doubles charge damage, so that's 1:32.
Abyss Bound (Bahomet) (has pre-req of Demon's Favor or something) double damage on a charge: 1:64.

There are probably other doubles out there, but you get the idea.

[Thaneus]

call me stupid but do multiplier just add and not multiply further?
so basically the given example would be "just" 1:7?

[Beheld]

call me stupid but do multiplier just add and not multiply further?
so basically the given example would be "just" 1:7?

Some multipliers add and some don't for starters the first "double damage on a charge" can't possibly add with your power attack ratio, so the valorous weapon alone guarantees 1:8. After that you can argue that for example headlong rush triples charge damage instead of doubling the double, bringing to 1:12, and with everything added together it comes to 1:24 as the lowest arguable ratio.

But there are plenty of good arguments that the various slightly different damage doubling effects do not fall within the weird dnd multiply rules. And each one that you can separate increases damage above the 1:24 ratio that is the absolute minimum legal interpretation of the ratio of such a character.

[Sagetim]

Some multipliers add and some don't for starters the first "double damage on a charge" can't possibly add with your power attack ratio, so the valorous weapon alone guarantees 1:8. After that you can argue that for example headlong rush triples charge damage instead of doubling the double, bringing to 1:12, and with everything added together it comes to 1:24 as the lowest arguable ratio.

But there are plenty of good arguments that the various slightly different damage doubling effects do not fall within the weird dnd multiply rules. And each one that you can separate increases damage above the 1:24 ratio that is the absolute minimum legal interpretation of the ratio of such a character.

No, I'm pretty sure the weirdness of the dnd multiply rules still applies and that each doubling would just +1 the multiplier instead of actually doubling the multiplier. Especially if your GM errs on the side of reasonableness instead of doggedly following the rules, because a 1:24 ratio on your power attack is going to get you house ruled even if the rules don't work that way. It's just too ridiculous, even if the rules as written work that way.

[Beheld]

No, I'm pretty sure the weirdness of the dnd multiply rules still applies and that each doubling would just +1 the multiplier instead of actually doubling the multiplier. Especially if your GM errs on the side of reasonableness instead of doggedly following the rules, because a 1:24 ratio on your power attack is going to get you house ruled even if the rules don't work that way. It's just too ridiculous, even if the rules as written work that way.

You can argue that no DM will follow the rules, but that doesn't change the actual rules.

The 1:4 ratio isn't multiplication. You can't add a multiplier to it, because it's not multiplication in the first place, so the adding multiplication rules don't apply.

I personally don't let people in my games play dumb uberchargers, because they aren't fun for anyone else at the table, but that doesn't mean that by RAW you can't just stack on doubling charge damages onto a 1:4 Power attack ratio that wasn't created by multiplication.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Leap Attack with Two Handed Weapon is 1:4.

Valorus weapon doubles on charge damage, so that's 1:8.
BattleJump from Unapproachable East doubles charge damage when you come down on them, so 1:16.
Headlong Rush (requires Orc) doubles charge damage, so that's 1:32.
Abyss Bound (Bahomet) (has pre-req of Demon's Favor or something) double damage on a charge: 1:64.

There are probably other doubles out there, but you get the idea.
We should be careful to distinguish PA multipliers and full damage multipliers.

On a regular PA charge, you get +1 damage for -1 attack, and no further bonus.
On a two-handed PA charge, you get +2 damage for -1 attack. I think this counts as a multiplier. The feat says: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon [...] instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls". In my view, "twice the number" is doubling, as opposed to wording like 'If you attack with a two-handed weapon [...] instead add two points of damage for each point of base attack bonus subtracted from your attack rolls'.

Leap Attack has two common readings, so let's consider both: you can double it, or triple it. That means the multiplier increases by 1 or 2 (I think 2 is the RAW here, but whatever).

A valorous weapon doubles that damage, or increases the total damage multiplier by 1.
Battle Jump increases the multiplier by 1.
Headlong Rush increases the multiplier by 1. Note: a Headlong Rush specifically provokes an AoO from your target.
Abyss-Bound Soul (Baphomet) increases the multiplier by 1.

That gives us a x5 total damage multiplier - four +1s - and PA returns of either 1:3 or 1:4. The total of our PA returns is then x15 or x20, where x20 has the stronger RAW claim (stupid though the Leap Attack wording is).


Further doubling probably isn't all that worthwhile at this point; perhaps it's better to start shopping for collision weapons and so on.